E7: Depression, An Honest Conversation

Episode Summary

What does it feel like to be depressed? What do you do if someone you care about is depressed? Can a person be depressed without being suicidal? Steph and Beth talk about this and more on this episode of Discovering Our Scars. Steph shares about being diagnosed with depression at age 14. Beth shares about a time she correctly predicted she would be incorrectly diagnosed as bipolar. They both talk about why they think therapy is a valuable tool for every person, and why medication is right for some, but not all, folks. You’ll get some tools for your toolkit (you can borrow some of Steph’s) and some practical tips about how to react if someone you care about is dealing with depression

Show Notes

• Steph’s Book
• Industrial Pipe Bookshelf (filled with copies of Steph’s Book!)
• Depression medication commercial mentioned by Steph
  

Questions for Reflection

Each episode we offer you a few prompts to think about how that day's conversation applies to you. You might pause the podcast and answer them right then and there, but if you keep a journal (Steph and Beth both do), you might find one of these PDFs useful. Choose the orientation that fits best in your journal.

E7 Questions for Reflection (Portrait)
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E7 Questions for Reflection (Landscape)
File Size:	259 kb
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Podcast Transcript

Beth:
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars Podcast.
Steph:
Where we have honest conversations about things that make us different. I'm Steph.
Beth:
And I'm Beth.
Steph:
I've been in recovery for 13 plus years and recently wrote a book, Discovering My Scars, about my mental health struggles, faith, and experience.
Beth:
I'm a lawyer turned pastor who's all about self-awareness and emotional health because I know what it's like to have neither of those things.
Steph:
Beth and I have been friends for six years, have gone through a recovery program together and when I wanted to start a podcast she was the only name that came to mind as a co-host.
Beth:
And I'm so glad. I didn't hesitate to say yes because I've learned a lot from honest conversations with Steph over the years.
Steph:
We value honest conversations and we hope you do too.
Beth:
That's why we do this and why we want you to be part of what we are discussing today. Today our topic is a little bit heavier. What is our topic today Steph?
Steph:
Today we are talking about depression and we're just going to have an honest conversation.
Beth:
And you have some personal experience with this as well. Actually to be fair, we both have personal experience with this, but you have actually experienced depression, right?
Steph:
Correct. Yeah. I wrote a book, as I said in our intro. In my book, I really go all into what I've gone through. I've experienced depression since I was a very young and I still experienced it today. It's definitely not as bad as it has been. Yeah, I definitely experience with it.
Beth:
How old were you when you were first diagnosed with depression?
Steph:
So for me, I was actually diagnosed with depression at 14. The way that happened is my parents started to see me, just a change in my personality, the change in things that I used to like I didn't like anymore. My Dad is a psychologist that does testing, that's his profession is testing people for different mental illnesses. And so he tested me for depression and I scored really high, which is not, you don't want to score really high on this test, but I scored really high. My parents sat me down and told me that I was depressed and as they were talking about it, I could see them getting worried and anxious and not sure what to do. And I realized, "H this sounds bad. Maybe I should put on a better face now instead of my true feelings." And so for the next few years I just decided to pretend everything was fine. That once I was diagnosed, oh, that must've been wrong. And I just kind of put on a, a better happy face. But nothing changed. I was still very depressed. I just was holding it all inside and depression. For me, depression is very much an isolating and a lonely thing to go through. Hiding it and going through it just made it all, all the more worse.
Beth:
So you were afraid that it would be like a burden for your family, for you to have depression?
Steph:
Yeah, it felt like I had growing up, I probably know more about mental illnesses than most. Because my dad is a psychologist. I grew up knowing about different mental illnesses, knowing depression. My mom actually, she's given me permission to talk about it. My mom actually has depression. She was diagnosed earlier than me actually and was on depression medicine. So I knew, I knew there was a, you know, a family history of depression. So it wasn't like I wasn't necessarily shameful. I don't remember being shameful about it. Like, Oh, you know, I'm so upset that I have this. I just remember I wanted to be strong for my family and not to have to put them through something. And so I've talked to my parents about it and it's hard for us even remember me back at 14 but they, they can't remember why I actually, why they didn't get me treatment at that, at that age. If I don't want to do something, I'm not going to do it. So I'm assuming I really pushed and said, I don't, I don't need treatment, I'm fine. Like I'm like, the tests are wrong, I'm fine. And that's probably where it ended and that's why they didn't pursue anything more is because I probably said, no, I'm good.
Beth:
I don't know if you even realize that you just said this, but one of the things you said is that you wanted to be strong for your family. So do you think that somehow at 14 you had internalized that depression was somehow a weakness?
Steph:
I don't know that I intentionally thought depression equals weakness because I, I don't think that today and I don't know that I thought it then. I think more depression equaled an unknown and equaled a problem that needed to be dealt with and I didn't want to burden my family with that, is I think probably where I was coming from. Not necessarily like I'm weak but more like I have a problem and we all have to deal with it and I don't want to put my family through that. That was probably where I was coming from. I was under the impression back then that if you just ignore it, it'll go away.
Beth:
Yeah, that doesn't work. It doesn't.
Steph:
I've quickly learned that as I've gotten older that it doesn't go away, but it does get worse.
Beth:
It does.
Steph:
It does get worse.
Beth:
Things do grow when you ignore them--
Steph:
And things just pile on top and you still have that 14 year old stuff to deal with. At 14, I had just started high school and so you know, high school, four years of high school. I was pretty good at. I had a great group of friends and I was a girl scout--love girl scouts. It wasn't as bad as it was in middle school, but once high school ended as anyone that's gone through high school and gone into college, life changes a lot. There's a lot of life changes that happened and for me all the life changes and my mood just, I couldn't control my depression anymore and I was just experiencing depression on a daily basis. It took all my effort just to get up, go to my college class and come home. That's all I could do. And I was getting worse and worse and worse. And with depression, I've, in my experience, I have more than just depression in my life. I also deal with Non-Suicidal Self-Injury and that started happening around the time that I got even more depressed after after high school and I also now have Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and I deal with anxiety. So I also have other things on top of depression, but we really want to try to keep today's episode kind of focused on depression,
Beth:
So you're right, we do want to really focus on depression today and we know that this is going to be very individual for everyone who is listening and for their friends and family members who are dealing with their, with their depression that this is, you know, this is going to be very individual. Was there a time when you started taking medication for your depression?
Steph:
After I had been in college for two years as about to go to college in Orlando and before I left for college, I finally told my mom for the first time that I was struggling with depression and that's when I got for the first time on a medication for, for depression. It did help with with some of my highs and lows. It definitely did.
Beth:
About how long did you stay on the medication?
Steph:
Maybe seven years towards the end when I was on it, I actually could start to feel it in my system, which is like, I don't know how to fully describe that, but I could feel it making me unnaturally happy. And it was a very strange sensation. And I don't know if that's a typical thing that happens over a prolonged amount of time of taking it. But I, it started making me nervous and scared that, that this drug was doing that I could feel this doing this to me. And so I did eventually get off of it and am no longer on depression medication. It was helpful for me for a time and I've, I since learned, I actually took a class taught by a professional psychologist that was talking about drugs and interactions and depression medicines and things like that. And one of the things he said is depression medication should really only be taken for six months at a time and it should always be paired with therapy. And when I heard that, I was like, oh my gosh, I was on him for seven years. Goodness Gracious. Maybe that's why I started to actually feel that change in me. That really, you know, really freaked me out. I definitely am, I believe that medication is helpful, but I also have seen it caused some really bad side effects. My mom has actually got off of depression medicine. A year or two ago and it was heck to come off of it. It was like coming off of a hard drug, you know, when you're going through withdrawal. She was, you know, it was really heck and hard for her to get off of it, but she needed to because she actually had some side effects that were caused by, by her drug cause she was on depression meds for probably 15, 15 plus years. So I definitely am not against medication, but I always recommend talk to your doctor even if you've been on a drug for awhile. If your drug, if your doctor prescribed it, always talk to them and say, is this something I still need to beyond, should we look at something else? You know, it's always great. That's what I learned going through drugs with myself and with my mom is always ask about your drugs and never just assume I've been on them forever, I'll just stay on for life. Because there might be other options.
Beth:
Yeah. And it might feel like it's easier to stay on it because the withdrawal like what you're mom experienced. Yeah. So, so traumatic and so hard that it, it can seem like it's easier to stay on it. But if your doctor has given you the advice that it's okay to wean yourself off of it, then a person doesn't need to feel like the only solution is to, to have the medicine.
Steph:
When we wanted to get mom off of her depression meds, we went and talked to her doctor and her doctor said, Oh yeah, that might be good to come off of. We're like, what? Okay. Yeah. And she's like, yeah, I usually don't recommend it because people don't want to go through the withdrawal because it's a, it's a lot to go through. And so mom was willing to do it and I was willing to help her with that. And it was tough. I mean she had really bad days where her emotions were all over the place and she just felt really gross and it was, it was tough to come off of, but she's like fully off of those now. And it was actually really strange because I remember when she was fully off of it, I could see a range of emotions in her that I hadn't seen in years. Like she wasn't just middle of the road, she could experience super joy, she could experience super sad and she hadn't really, I hadn't really seen that in her for for a long time because the meds were, were kind of keeping her flatline. And that was very interesting to me to actually be able to physically see a change before and after.
Beth:
So what does depression feel like for you? How do you know when you are slipping into it? Is that the right way to say it when you're slipping into depression?
Steph:
Well, I want to start by saying is I can only talk about my experience with it. And I know there's people that you know, when they get depressed they are in bed for you know, a week straight or they just sleep a lot or they don't sleep at all? You know, everyone experiences it differently. For me, depression is, I don't experience as bad as I used to but I'll, I'll try to go back to, you know, when I was going through it the worst, I mean it really, it feels cliche to say, but it really felt like I was in like a bottomless hole and I was just, and it was slick. It was like a PVC pipe and you couldn't grab anything on the edges because there's no place to put your hands. And it was slick and you just kept falling the more you try to get out of it. And just keeps getting darker and darker and darker and that's what it felt like to me as I'm just drowning in this bottomless hole that I can't get out of. I have these kind of imagery things sometimes I would like, imagine myself when I was depressed, I was sitting on a, on a box in a room that had just four walls, empty walls and there was projections, full projections on each of these walls and the projections were everything. The worst things that have ever happened in my life to me or I've done just keep being projected and I'm forced to look at them over and over and over. And that's what the depression feels like is just the worst moments of my life being projected in front of my face constantly. And it just keeps getting me down and I keep going to more of a dark place, and more of a dark place. Growing up when I was experiencing these things before I'd actually been diagnosed and before I'd actually admitted to other people and gotten treatment for it, I didn't really understand fully what depression was and my experience with it was commercials. So there was a commercial back in the day where there was like this little like circle guy that was like really sad and he was bouncing around and he was sad. And then he goes bouncing around and got his drug and he was happy. I was like, oh, the drug must make me happy. That was actually the first drug I ever took was that that company, because of the commercial, that was my first experience. And you know when those drug commercials--I don't know if we have drug commercials as much as we used to because I don't watch cable that much, but I don't know if they're still out there. But in the commercials, as you see the sad guy and then the happy guy, you hear the voice saying all the side effects. And the side effect is "if you experience suicidal thoughts, you may need this drug. But also if you take this drug, you might experience suicidal thoughts." And I'm like, okay, so suicide and depression, those seem to be like tied together in some way. And so for me, I always thought, Oh, if I'm depressed that means I'm suicidal. That's not good. I like, that's something to be shameful of. And I don't know why I thought that, but that was my thought process is like depression and suicide? Same thing. Oh that's not good.
Beth:
So depression and suicide are two different things, right?
Steph:
I do know that now. Yes.
Beth:
And when you were describing being in a room and you had to just watch, you know, projected images of the worst things that you've experienced and the worst things that you've done that definitely so sounds to me like, oh, like a description of Hell, I mean the absence of anything good. There were only bad things in that image, and it sounded too like you were sort of drowning in all the old stuff that happened. So has dealing with some of the, some of the layers of the old stuff. I mean, you do such a good job unpacking so much of this in the book. So has, has doing that work helped in some ways with that, that image of yourself in that room?
Steph:
Yes, for sure. I don't necessarily imagine that room as often as I used to because I've dealt with so much of that. So before when I got depressed, there was just layers on top of layers and there was, you know, two year old stuff that was in that layer pile because I hadn't dealt with it. And when I'm depressed I can't deal with any of this stuff. So I really like it just kept getting higher and higher and higher. And now I've dealt with a lot of those things and so depression doesn't hit as hard as it used to because a lot of those layers are not in there. Definitely the more I deal with my stuff and deal with things as they come up, so little things might come up and I might be like, oh, well that's nothing. You know, I don't need to put any thought into that. But now I realize every little thing I need to put a little bit of thought into that. Is that something that I need to process? Do I need to forgive someone there? Do I need to forgive myself? Do I need to write about this? There's, there's a lot of things that I try to do when any kind of thing comes up because the more I just put off those little things when one, when a big thing comes, that unravels everything in my life and I just. And that's when I go, that's when I get depressed is when I've let all these little things pile up and then another big thing comes on top of that. Then I just, then I just fall in. I just, I'm out all my, I'm depressed.
Beth:
Right. Well, and those things don't go away, just because you may think, oh, they're little and I'll just, I don't even need to put any time into that, but then it does wait for you and it does grow and, and I think of this like, like a cancerous tumor, right? You can ignore it and it's just going to grow. You have to take some action against it in order to prevent its growth.
Steph:
Yeah, exactly.
Beth:
So you talked about your mom being on depression medication for a long time and how she really had to be her own health advocate and that it's important that we ask questions and that we explore with our doctors what is the right course of treatment and then how long should this course of treatment last. And it reminded me of a time when I was in counseling, you know I was receiving counseling and it was, I had just put a pin in my legal career. So I had, I was sort of coming off of almost like the treadmill of that. And I did personal injury work. I did personal injury defense work. So if someone was in a car accident, I defended the driver who was cited for the accident, that kind of thing. And what I found in those cases is that there was one particular psychologist in town who all of the plaintiffs seemed to go to. And uniformly across the board they all got a diagnosis that they were bipolar. So then it just so happened that the counselor I was seeing after I had been treating with her for about nine months, she decided that she was going to go share office space with that particular psychologist. And I said to her, okay, but listen, I know from my other work that 100% of his patients, it seems to me 100% of his patients, come away with a bipolar diagnosis. I just want you to be aware of that as you choose to work with him. So about 30 days later she says he's so brilliant, he's, he's developed this incredible diagnostic for bipolar. I think that we need, you need to do it, we need to do this diagnostic on you. So we did it and I, I will tell you that the diagnosis, the diagnostic went something like: is there ever a time when you feel happy and sad in the same day? Why yes, there is because I don't tend to stay sad. So I might experience sadness and then within the same day I may also experience happiness. It was, it was things like that that that sounded to me like just very normal human emotional health. And so of course she says to me, you know, you're not going to believe this but you are, you are bipolar according to this diagnostic. And I was like, well, I already told you that I don't put any value in that diagnostic, so I'm really not surprised. And she was like, no, no, you're bipolar. We have to do something about this. And I was like, and we're done.
Steph:
Well what did she want to do about it?
Beth:
She, she was recommending medication.
Steph:
Oh gosh.
Beth:
So we wrapped up our relationship. Like we just, I just stopped treating with her because she was no longer a reliable counselor. But it's really, really hard to start over with a new counselor when you're working with someone and they become unreliable or you can sense that you've stalled or whatever. It's really hard. First of all, it's hard to begin that relationship and then it's really hard when it's time to change and to start over. Have you experienced that?
Steph:
I personally am a big fan of therapy. I think it's super important. Therapy literally is someone to talk to you, to listen to you and that's their job is to listen to you in, in maybe give you some words of wisdom potentially, but just to listen, to let you talk in talking is so important. I've learned that, that just by talking I can get so much out of me and then it's not taking up space in my head and I'm able to move on and live life. So for me, I've been really lucky. My first therapist that I saw is so my therapist today. That is definitely not the norm. That is not something that typically happens, is you find the right person right away. Just with anything. I mean with going to find any kind of doctor, friend, things like that, sometimes you have to shop around. And so I, I always encourage, you know, go to someone a couple of times if you don't feel like it's the right person, look for someone else. There's so many people that are practicing. There's, there's all types of therapists that specialize in different areas and there's psychologists, there's social workers, marriage and family therapists. So there's a lot of different types of counselors out there and they're their degree (psychology, family, etc.) those things are just based on how much schooling they've had, but that doesn't mean they're any less or more than based on their schooling. It's all based on how you feel when you talk to them. If you feel like there's value and you're getting something out of going, then that's the person for you. So I'm cool. I'm curious for you, you said once you got that diagnosis you're like, hmm, bye. Did you pursue another therapist?
Beth:
I didn't. I ended that relationship with her and then continued to implement some of the, some of the tools that she had taught me and understood then the importance of verbal processing. And so it was doing a lot more journaling and a lot more just verbal processing on my own. And then the next thing that I really did was when we did the Step Study together and revisited some of what she and I had worked on. And was also, I was also able to see them to have a perspective to really understand how many of the layers had been dealt with. But how, you know, there were still layers in that parfait (because a parfait is more delicious than an onion, although I love onions). So there were more, there were more layers in that parfait that needed to be dealt with. And so then our Step Study gave me some additional tools.
Steph:
So are you in therapy now? Today?
Beth:
I'm not, but I wouldn't hesitate to go. I do have somebody who I check in with when I need to. So it's not a, it's not a weekly or biweekly or even a monthly thing, but it's-- I just actually talked with her yesterday. Like it's just when I, when I can tell that I need it or when I feel like I need it, I'm able to, to go in and kind of run things by her. You know, it really is just what you were saying about the, the value of saying things out loud. I often find that I have the, I have the knowledge at hand. I have the wisdom at hand, but I can't access it until things are being processed. And then it's like, oh well I know I didn't need to react that way, or yeah, that wasn't healthy the way that I internalized what was said to me, you know, but I have to kind of process things out loud. Which is the value of having someone who is literally paid just to give you a space to do that and to listen. So I, I'm like you, I think that therapy is a great tool for everyone.
Steph:
So you have experienced therapy. Have you experienced depression? Have we...
Beth:
I haven't. And this is, this is maybe one of my questions for you is how do you know if it's I'm stressed and I'm sad versus I'm depressed? So the reason that I would say I haven't experienced depression is for one thing, it's never been diagnosed, but for another, I've never had like an extended period of sadness. So situational--when I was grieving, you know right after my father passed away? Of course that was a time of sadness for me. I haven't experienced like what you described where it was like you were down in the pit.
Steph:
I don't think I have any secret sauce to how, you know, depression versus sadness. It's hard to even say I'm depressed today. So I'll say I'm sad today, but I can feel a difference. It's, it's more where I'm sad that somebody left a mean comment on one of my videos or I'm sad because I didn't get as much done in a project that I wanted. Those are things that I'm sad and bummed out about. But when those that comment, and not finishing the project, and my dog is sick ,and I had a bad conversation with my friend--
Beth:
You're describing like a piling on. Like things pile on?
Steph:
Yeah. So I think for me it's, it's things that are sad on their own, but when they all get piled on top of each other and just keep getting piled on, there comes a point where I can't take it anymore and I'm just there. I'm in that dark place and I'm just at the bottom of that hole and I can't get out. And those things just stay there and just keep swimming around in my head and I can't get out of that. And that, that to me is depression. And I don't feel like you have to have the official diagnosis to have experienced depression. I don't think, I think people may probably experience it without having gone to someone that says, oh, you are depressed. As much as labels, are not like having a diagnosis is nice to be able to say that's the word for it. I didn't know I was depressed, I mean I was depressed a lot of my childhood and I didn't know the word for it until I was diagnosed, but I was experiencing, it's still the same. And once I was diagnosed with depression, it didn't really change it. It just meant, oh, there's a big word for it now. I still was experiencing in the same way,
Beth:
I think the only hesitance that I have in saying that I have been depressed is that I wouldn't want to minimize someone else's experience with it and I wouldn't want it to be like, oh yeah, everybody has that because I know it can be very debilitating and I wouldn't want it to seem like I was making light of it.
Steph:
I think if you're coming from the right place, then there's no problem sharing your experience. So for me, I know people experience depression in all different ways. I know people are going to hear this and be like, oh, that's nothing. I have x, y, and z. Everyone has their own experience. No one's is the same. And I think there's importance in sharing and being vulnerable and sharing these things that have happened in our lives. Like if you have something where, and usually depression is typically socially acceptably associated with death in a family and things like that because that's, everyone can understand that, oh, of course like a family member's gone. You probably are experiencing depression, you're, you know, that's a hard thing to go through. So that's usually that socially acceptable. And then postpartum with children, that's where you hear it a lot. People talk about it. People, I don't hear people talking about depression on a daily basis when it just comes to just things in my life are causing this. I don't hear people talk about a lot, but just for me, writing my book and sharing with people, I've had people come to me and share things. I've known them for years and I've had people share things that I never knew about them because I was vulnerable and share these things. And that makes me so happy. That people are willing to share and feel like they can share. So if anything by even if like you just said, you know, I'm I'm almost afraid to say I've experienced depression because I know people experience in different ways and I don't want to minimize it. Well, you're already coming from the right place. You've already thought through that process, but you sharing your struggles even if they are nothing like someone else's, might open the door for somebody else to share their stuff and not be afraid to share it and I think there's so much power in us sharing with each other all of our stuff. Even if--I'd never want to compare like, oh, your stuff is way bigger than my stuff. No, we all have stuff and it's something that is powerful to share and makes us stronger by getting out there.
Beth:
I think that you're really right about that because even as I think back on my own journey and the think about making that decision to go and talk to a counselor, part of the reason that I was willing to do that is because I had a friend who was doing it. And at the time it felt like, oh, my friend is so brave. Can I be that brave? You know, it was, I needed somebody to de-stigmatize it for me. And then if I think back even further back in my memory before that, I remember that when I was in law school, and this is, this is--I really didn't remember this until we were just recording and we were talking about things. So I remember that when I was in law school and I was overwhelmed. It, it was an overwhelming experience. I was newly married, I was in graduate school. It was hard, right? And I went to the doctor and he said, I think that you should be on Prozac. I really think that it would help you. And there was such a stigma in my own mind about that, that I refused and he said, "Don't be a martyr. Take the pill." And I wouldn't, I just refused to do it. To my own detriment, surely. Right? Like, he's still my doctor today. He's always looked out for my best interests, a wonderful man, knowing that he was really looking out for my best interest, but my own stigma on it was getting in my way.
Steph:
Did you feel like if you took the Prozac that you would be admitting that you were depressed, you can handle it all on your own and you were one of "them"?
Beth:
Yeah. Or that I was, that I had somehow failed because I wasn't able to deal with my life and I wasn't able to rise to the challenge of life. That's so ridiculous. I don't even know why I thought that.
Steph:
If you went through something similar to that now, would you take the drug?
Beth:
Yes! In fact since, so you know, I had a hysterectomy a few months ago and they told me before I had surgery, they said, you know, one of the, one of the side effects of this is that you're going to instantly be in menopause way before you naturally would be. But don't worry, we're gonna give you a mild antidepressant and it's, it's gonna help with the hot flashes and it'll help with the night sweats and it'll, it'll help with all of the emotion of this. And every time I have gone back for a checkup, I have to go back every three months cause I have to check for the, have to check the cancer markers and all that. And every time I've gone back I've said, now listen, is it time? Am I going to get my antidepressant this time? And so far they're still withholding it from me, but I go back in a couple of weeks. So,
Steph:
Oh my goodness. Well keep us updated. We want to know what you're on. Goodness.
Beth:
I'm just saying if they offered it now, I would not hesitate at all. Like, you know, like a 21 year old me hesitated or whatever. I, I have no, there's no stigma on it now for me.
Steph:
Interesting.
Beth:
Yeah. So one of the things that you mentioned that I want to make sure that we talk about a little bit more is that you had this idea from the TV commercial for the, of the bouncing sad bubble or whatever--
Steph:
We'll put a link to it. It's probably on YouTube.
Beth:
I'm sure it is. That there is a connection between depression and suicide that the two, or between being depressed and being suicidal, that the two were somehow synonymous. But you've unpacked some of that. So what have you, what have you learned on that?
Steph:
That took me awhile to, to kind of really process. I have experienced suicidal thoughts and I'm not--like there was a time where I would not have said that. I would not have said that to just one person in front of me. Definitely wouldn't have said it on a recorded podcast. But when I'm depressed, I do think of me not being on this earth anymore. I do think of that and I do think, you know what that will look like and how that would help my depression and how I wouldn't be sad anymore. Like I do think about that and I have had those thoughts. And to me that is a suicidal thought. Being suicidal, to me, and again, these are MY definitions. I haven't Googled them. I don't know the exact definition. But to me that's suicidal thought and that is associated very much with my depression. I have those thoughts. Being suicidal is taking actions to commit suicide, in my mind. So actually writing a suicide note, actually getting something to end your life that would be suicidal and I have not, I have not gotten to that place. But I have thought about what it would be like for me not being here. I mean there was a time in my life where when I was younger I couldn't imagine living past 33. I just, I couldn't imagine me past that age. And I realized that a couple, couple of weeks before I turned 33 cause I turned 33 in February. A couple months before that I was like, Whoa, I'm about to turn 33 and life is great and I'm in such a good place. I couldn't, I as a child I could not see this. I could not see this because there was so much in front of me, there was so much junk there that I couldn't get through. And I finally got through all those piles and I can see past 33 now.
Beth:
33 is such a random age. I wonder why you didn't hit on 30 or 31?
Steph:
You know what it is? It's that Jesus died at 33.
Beth:
Oh, that's interesting.
Steph:
That was always, I don't know why, but that's like, that's an I know cause there is just so random. But that's when he died. And that was like in my mind it's like okay he had 33 years. That's as many hours as I'll have. It's weird. I know. But you know, if you're going to compare yourself to somebody? I know, right? I have no idea where that came from, but that was, it was 33 and it always was 33. It was just weird. But I'm, I'm happy and happier than I would have ever, ever have imagined.
Beth:
Well, that makes me even more excited to look forward to next February and your 34th birthday.
Steph:
Who knows what's going to happen?! I'm excited.
Beth:
Who knows? Oh my goodness.
Steph:
I'm excited for life. You had said that you haven't experienced depression. Have you, do you know anyone with depression? Have you experienced it in someone that you love in your life?
Beth:
Yeah, I've experienced it in my family. My dad, for example, went through a time when, he was a big part of a business and it failed and it was so devastating to him personally that he really spiraled and he actually ended up needing, needing not just medication but treatment. And it was a really rough time. It was hard to see him like that and he didn't like being seen like that. And... It didn't make me love him one ounce less. He was just who he was. And I just loved him to bits and it didn't matter to me that he was struggling with it. So it was hard. It was hard, too hard to watch him and to worry for him and to want the best for him and, and to know that he didn't always want that for himself. That was tough, it's hard. It's hard to be on the outside and to, to want to create a space where the people we love can have everything that they need, but at the same time not try to rush in and fix it. And I did that a little bit with my dad. I did try to rush in and fix it sometimes. And he was really good about saying, "this is really my work. This isn't your work. This is really my work and I'm, and I'm going to do it in the way that makes sense to me." It was instructive also, right? Just to like watch him do his work and to do the hard things that he needed to do. That was good. So if someone came to you and said that they were experiencing depression and they were experiencing suicidal thoughts, you wouldn't immediately associate that with them being suicidal?
Steph:
If somebody came to me today and said, you know, I'm depressed, I'm having suicidal thoughts. If they said that to me, I would ask more questions. I would say, are you willing to talk a little bit more about that? First get permission to make sure that they're willing to, to talk more about it. And then just ask questions like, what? What kind of thoughts are you having? Can you describe it? Can we talk a little bit more about this? What, why do you think you're depressed? What are the, what are the thoughts? And a lot of times the answer is, I don't know. And that's an answer and that's okay. You have to be okay with that as well because sometimes people don't know. I've said "I don't know" and really meant it many times. I've said I don't know why I'm so sad. I don't know why I'm depressed and I didn't for the longest time. And I think the biggest thing is coming from a place of love and starting a conversation and not trying to fix somebody. They just want to be heard and they want somebody that they can say it to. And there is so much power in just talking and allowing them to talk and not trying to put your 2 cents in, but just allowing them to talk and keep probing, keep asking. And if they're willing to take a step of getting counseling, talking to their doctor, you know, help them with that step, but always make sure it's their choice in that you're not forcing anything on them.
Beth:
Yeah, true healing is never forced. This has been a tough one, Steph. This is a really heavy topic and I know we're gonna loop back and talk about this some more in the future and approach it from some other ways. Do you have a takeaway from today?
Steph:
Well, before that I did want to mention the importance of a healthy toolkit. So that's something I've learned through through Celebrate Recovery with my sponsor is we talked a lot about, you know, when I'm depressed, when I'm having, when I'm sad, when I'm having those bad off days, what do I do in the past, I would use Non-Suicidal Self-Injury to cope, which was not healthy and didn't get, didn't get me anywhere. And so when I am having a good day is when I put thought into what do I do when I'm not having a good day? And that's what I put on my healthy toolkit. So for me, I will take a walk, I'll get out into fresh air, I'll take Mac out for a walk, I will do a project around the house that I know I can accomplish and won't run into any kind of problems. I'll build a Lego set because I love me some Legos. And I'll take my way myself out of that situation that's causing me to get depressed and to get to a dark place and I will do something different. That's the key for me is do something different than I've done in the past. My takeaway from today would be mental illness is not something to be ashamed of, to be afraid of and to not talk about. I think every, everyone struggles with something in some way and the more that we share that with each other, the better we're going to get as individuals, as society, the healthy--healthier--we will be.
Beth:
Yeah, I would echo that. I think my takeaway from today is that mental health is as individual as we are in that there's no comparing one person's experience to another in terms of minimizing it or you know, even making it feel overblown or something. I can honor my own experience and that in honoring my experience, I honor their experience and that that's okay.
Music:   [inaudible]
Beth:
Steph, I'm so excited that your book is available now that folks can get it. They can order it directly from you on your website. We'll have a link to it obviously in the show notes, but it's StephanieKostopoulos.com and they--
Steph:
And the book is called Discovering My Scars,
Beth:
And if they order it now, there is actually,
Steph:
they get a free wooden bookmark. It's very cool. It's made out of Birch. Yes.
Beth:
And that totally connects some different parts of your life with your DIY For homeowners and, and a lot of the things that you're passionate about. And it's a really beautiful bookmark and it's really useful. So that's a bonus. Why don't we include in the show notes and link, we did this once before, but we'll do it again where we link to the bookcase project that you created so that they can actually see how great the book looks and we would just invite you to go to Steph's website and to order your copy of Discovering My Scars. She'll personalize it for you, if you include a note there. And she's got everything set up for shipping throughout the US. If you need it shipped internationally, just drop her a note and she'll let you know what the, what the details of that are. Is that right?
Steph:
Correct. Yeah. And these are advanced copies. The book actually will be in bookstores in January, but if you want an advanced copy that's available now, my website and we want to, we want to hear from you so we ask a question at the end of each podcast and you are welcome to call our voicemail number and leave an answer to any of the questions that we've asked. our voicemail number is (850) 270-3308. And what is today's question, Beth?
Beth:
Today we want to know what's your favorite piece of technology?
Steph:
Oh, I love that. I love technology.
Beth:
So many good options here. Right? What made us think of it actually is that we were having coffee in a coffee shop and everyone, including both of us, had on their Apple watches and we were like, okay, so that's like the technology piece of the day, right? The technology piece du jour. But what is your favorite, give us a call, leave us a message on that voicemail line. Tell us: What is your favorite piece of technology?
Music:   [inaudible]
Steph:
At the end of each episode, we like to end with the Questions For Reflection, and these are just some questions we've put together that relate to today's episode. They're for you to answer in your or head on paper. We have a place on our website where you can download a pdf of them. And if you don't want to answer them and we will see you next time!
Music:   [inaudible]
Beth:
Questions For Reflection: What is your personal understanding of depression? Where does that understanding come from? If a friend was dealing with depression, what would you do to help? Are suicide and depression linked in your mind? Why? What tools do you use to battle depression? What is in your healthy toolkit?
Steph:
This has been the Discovering Our Scars Podcast. Thank you for joining us.

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