In each episode, we offer you a few prompts to think about how the conversation applies to you. You might pause the podcast and answer them right then and there, but if you keep a journal (Steph and Beth both do), feel free to download a print a PDF of the Questions for Reflection we've made just for you:
 
Landscape or Portrait

1. What’s the last thing you said goodbye to? What emotions are tied to that?
2. What’s the hardest goodbye you’ve ever had?
3. Have you ever regretted a goodbye? Why?
4. What are your feelings on saying goodbye to each year?

Beth Demme: 0:03Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars podcast.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 0:06We share personal experiences so we can learn from each other. I'm Steph and I'm Beth. I've been in recovery for 17 years and am the author of Discovering my Scars, my memoir about what's done in the darkness eventually comes to light.

Beth Demme: 0:16I'm a lawyer turned pastor who's all about self-awareness and emotional health, because I know what it's like to have neither of those things.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 0:23Beth and I have been friends for years, have gone through a recovery program together, and when I wanted to start a podcast, she was the only name that came to mind as co-host.

Beth Demme: 0:29I didn't hesitate to say yes because I've learned a lot from sharing personal experiences with Steph over the years. We value honest conversations and we hope you do too. On today's show we're going to have an honest conversation titled Time to Say Goodbye.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 0:43Then we'll share a slice of life, and the show will close with questions for reflection. We'll invite you to reflect on the conversation in your own life. Well, bye.

Beth Demme: 0:51Yeah. You were like, let's have a show and call it Time to Say Goodbye, and I was like are you trying to tell me something, are you? Do you want to say goodbye to me, are you like?

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 1:00no, never. Get out of the podcast studio, that's in my house Actually, I can't say never, because I think that's the whole point of today's episode is that at some point we will have to say goodbye. But I don't like to think about it, about saying goodbye to people in your life. Yeah, I don't like to think about that. Okay, well, and I guess that's what we're talking about today is, as we were thinking through this topic, we realized there's a lot of things that we do say goodbye to in our life and have to say goodbye to, and it's not necessarily the obvious goodbyes. So that's, I think, what we're going to dig into.

Beth Demme: 1:33Yeah. So just to recap, what often happens on the Discovering Our Scars podcast is, steph says, hey, maybe we should think about this or talk about this, and I'm like, oh, I don't want to think about that. And she's like, yes, let's do an episode on it then. Well, the truth is we are nearing the end of the year, and so there is a sense of, like things, winding down, a natural goodbye, yeah. And so say goodbye.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 1:59But that is something that happens to everyone at the same time, at the same time and place every year. So I guess that is a good place to start. Is goodbyes that are you know all the time, like even on your birthday. Like you know, there's two ways of looking at your birthday actually it's like it's like a whole new year, exciting new year, that you don't know what's coming. Or it can be sad Like oh my gosh, I'm like right, I'm not, you know 36 anymore.

Beth Demme: 2:32Yeah Well, I think people especially feel that way at decades, right Like oh, goodbye 30s, hello 40s.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 2:38Do you think as you get older, you get sadder around birthdays or happy, or like do you think there's a different shift as you get older with birthdays?

Beth Demme: 2:49I really didn't like turning 30, but every birthday since then has been pretty good and it's not like my 30,. My, that was a bad year and it was just like something about that number to me felt really monumental. And the numbers after that it's kind of like, yeah, now, when I get closer to 50, I may feel differently. It's not that far away, but it is a couple years away.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 3:10Yeah, so like the decades.

Beth Demme: 3:12Yeah, I think that there's something about the decades.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 3:16Yeah, like birthdays don't really hold any weight to me anymore. I remember when I was younger, like birthdays were like, oh my gosh, I'm turning 18, whatever. But now it's just kind of like a day and it's more. It's more like a reflection for me about just life in general. So I get kind of like introspective more on birthdays and I don't necessarily, I guess, I go through the emotions of it. Like there is an element that's sad of like like, oh my gosh, should I waste just last year, like I'm only going to be 36 once. Did I do everything I need to do when I was 36? And then there's like the realization, like, oh my gosh, I am 37. Wow, wow, do you still always know your age? No, I, the other day I literally was thinking in my head I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm maybe 39 this year. That's crazy, that's so close to 40. And then a second later I was like, oh my gosh, no, I'm going to be 38 this year. Oh my gosh, I'm going to say year of my life. So no, I absolutely don't know my age and it's, it's pretty jarring, yeah.

Beth Demme: 4:22So with birthdays, with like, when, the, when the year changes, we are saying goodbye, but we're also immediately saying hi to something new, right, hi to the new year, hi to the new age, and so maybe those good guys are easier because they're they're completely out of our control. Like, the calendar is going to do what it's going to do, time is going to do what it does, but also then we have this new thing.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 4:42And we have that set set aside time for kind of that reflection. So I think, for me, the good guys that are like the hardest are the unexpected and the people, but there's been definitely a handful of good guys that have been super hard. I think, for me, um, leaving my jobs, um, I left my job at Apple. Um, and that was really hard because I like the comfort of knowing of what's going to happen and even though with Apple, there was things I was frustrated about and there was things that, like I was like I want to move on, it still was super scary to leave because it was the unknown like what is that going to look? Like? Um, and the easier thing would have just been to stay.

Beth Demme: 5:23Yeah Well, how did you know it was time to say goodbye? It was a feeling, yeah.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 5:27Um, you know, there was definitely times throughout my five years of working there where I was like I'm so mad I'm just going to quit. You know there's those feelings of, look, I'm going to quit. And those aren't the times that I quit, because that's not, um, you know, when I it's definitely a feeling of like, you know there's just that like leave, but it was, it was, um, a rational feeling when it was like you know, there's definitely things I'm frustrated about here, but ultimately I feel like I've done everything that I needed to do here and it's time to move on. So it was a feeling of it's time. And once I realized that feeling, that's when I, you know, made the next steps of okay, where, when am I going to do next? I'm going to tell my boss I'm going to, you know, quit all those things. It definitely was. You know I was saying goodbye. It was never going to be the same again.

Beth Demme: 6:18Did you have that feeling when you decided to stay in Orlando after you finished at UCF, like? Did you have a sense that you were saying goodbye to your hometown?

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 6:28And I decided to stay. It wasn't even, um, a really a process, because it was like I had been in school and I had been working at Disney and Apple and I was going to be able to make those jobs permanent after school. And it just was, it just all happened. Just, it just happened Like it wasn't a choice I really made and my last semester of school was online and so I moved to an apartment closer to you to Apple and I went full time. So, like it just kind of happened. It wasn't really like I am now a Orlando liver, Like this is where I live now. It just kind of like this just is. So I don't remember like a saying goodbye to Tallahassee. I mean, I said goodbye to Tallahassee when I moved to go to UCF for school and I was happy about that. I was like I'm not gonna be a townie at all. No, and I still am not a townie because I chose to come back. I wasn't forced to come back. So I don't think, you know, it was a conscious choice to move back to Tallahassee. And then I fell in love with Tallahassee in an adult way. You know it's not, it still is my childhood place, but, like in the same thing. I decided to leave my job at the church years ago. Now I how many is? 10 years now, I don't even know. Well, less than that, but still it's eight years, eight years ago. And it was the same feeling with Apple, where it's like there's things I'm frustrated about, there's things that I like, there's comfort in the known, but it's time. And it was just that same feeling, but it was hard because I'm saying goodbye to all my coworkers and everything that I knew and it would never be the same again. And also, when you quit a job, you know that says something, that the finality of it. Like you know I think there's other ways that you could leave a job, in other things that could bring you to different places. But like when you just say like I'm quitting, I'm done, like I don't know, there's just something like very final about it.

Beth Demme: 8:27No, you're right. I think I've only ever quit one job, like when I left the law firm that I worked for to stay home with my kids. It was I'm gonna do this for a season and I'll be back. Oh, so you didn't even really quit. I never quit. And I mean, have you yet? Or generously, kindly, wonderfully, they would check in with me, like, hey, are you still checking? Are you ready to come back? You know they've stopped checking now. Oh, okay, but I really appreciated that for the first couple of years they checked in with me and I could have gone back if I had been ready. And I wasn't ready, I needed to be home with my kids. I needed it for them and I needed it for me. So, yeah, I never really quit. The only job I quit was a really bad job. Yeah, that was like bye yeah that I worked, I think, for one or two days and I was like this is a really terrible place and I don't wanna work here anymore. And the manager said well, can you finish out your schedule? And I said no, this is a really terrible place, I don't wanna work here anymore.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 9:30I was really honest. Wow, yeah, were you in high school?

Beth Demme: 9:34No, I was in college. Oh, okay, yeah, I was in college. Was it Discovery Zone? No, how did you work at Discovery Zone? Close, the very Right. I think they were still open, though when I left I graduated. I graduated from college, and so then it was like this is a natural ending point.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 9:51Your two examples are kind of what I'm talking about, where, like when I quit, like that's a, like that says something, but you had a natural oh I'm done with college, so it made sense to leave that job, and so no one really, you know, questioned that, and then you didn't actually quit your law job. I didn't, you didn't have that finality and so and that's enough. So those are two examples of ways where you're not making that like full commitment of goodbye. You're still holding onto a thread, and I wonder how many people are in like my situation versus your situation where, like I, like when I'm done with something, I'm done with it. I don't want to leave the loose strings, it's hard, but I want to like this is done and we all know it's done, and for you it's like I'm going to hold on to whatever.

Beth Demme: 10:36I can. I want to keep my options open, yeah.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 10:38Yeah, or I want it to just naturally happen where there's, which totally makes sense. You're that way now, like you are the yes woman and you're going to say yes.

Beth Demme: 10:47I say yes, I can yes and yeah.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 10:49Like your goal in life is to say yes, yes, and so if someone's like, well, although you didn't say yes to go back to the law firm, but you said yes to yeah keep checking in.

Beth Demme: 11:00Yeah, I was always not. Yet Can't do it yet.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 11:03See, that was so annoying me though, like that would so annoying me, just give just. If you're not coming back, just be done with it Like I would. That's how I am. I prefer someone to be completely honest with themselves first, and then with me. I really thought I would go back, though. I really did, but how many years was it until you realized you weren't going back, and then they stopped calling Like how long did that?

Beth Demme: 11:25take. I mean, it was probably two or three years before they stopped calling.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 11:29That's crazy, but I stayed friends with them, see, but I think there's an element of you that don't want to upset people, and if you had said I quit, so you'd never really had to say so. It's almost the it's the easier way out to just kind of keep that leash there and just for my own self.

Beth Demme: 11:47I wanted to keep that option open. I wanted to keep. I wanted to go back to that job if I wanted to.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 11:54In reality, though, you could have easily gone. You could have easily said I quit, I'm done, but you still could have gone back. If you had asked years later, you could have still said hey, like were they keeping your position open. No, I mean, Well then there's no reason you could have easily gone back to it without like holding this lifeline.

Beth Demme: 12:13A law firm's a little different, because you basically have to earn your own salary. Yeah, so it's, if they think that you can generate enough work to cover your salary, they're gonna say, yes, you could come back. Yeah, but yeah, I'm thinking about even like my high school job. I had it until I went away to college and then, when I went away to college, I came back and I worked there in the summer, so I really haven't. I've only quit that one job.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 12:40And that's the job I had in high school was working at the church that I worked at years later and that was kind of what happened. There was I was in college and then or no, I was in high school and then I moved to UCF. So it was more like I'm leaving. It wasn't like I quit. So I definitely know that feeling verse like I quit. So I wonder how many people actually quit jobs.

Beth Demme: 13:06Right.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 13:07Or leave, and also it's a kind of a privileged place to be with the law firm where, like, how many jobs are going to check in to see if you want to come back? Like most jobs are like you're here or you're not, like yeah, it's true they were they were really good to me. That's a kind of a different situation, like I couldn't have done that at Apple. You know, if I wanted to, it was either you quit, if you come back, then we'll rehire you, but we're not gonna keep checking in with you. So I think that's a pretty rare.

Beth Demme: 13:34They were really kind and really generous with me. That's true.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 13:37So definitely saying goodbye to a job is like you know, it's a, it's a kind of a transition in life kind of goodbye. And then something that I have definitely had experience with lately is losing a person or pet. So I in the last few years I lost both my grandparents and my aunt and that was definitely kind of a a hard reality. And then you know, just actually almost a year, it's gonna be a year end of January I lost my first dog ever, mac, and you know it's still hard like, especially like last month was her gotcha day and her birthday, and so just you know the anniversaries of those dates. I think it will obviously get easier with time, but because it was my first, you know.

Beth Demme: 14:25I think it's just all of that and like your memories from one year ago.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 14:29Yeah, yeah, and then in January last year she was sick for a lot of January. So I'm like gearing up, I'm like, okay, I need to do a lot of happy things, cause, yeah, it was a definitely a hard reality last year. But I think I think losing, especially something kind of unexpected, like with Mac. She got sick really quickly and then I had to like put her down within like two weeks of this kind of big pain that she was in, and so it was unexpected. And so I think these like unexpected goodbyes I don't think it's ever easy to lose somebody, but like if someone has cancer or something that has been an illness going on, like you kind of can prepare yourself, even though you can never like fully be prepared. You still have to go through the process. But with Mac, I mean, it was just I had never. That was the first time I'd have really gone through like the full grieving process and like really like lived in each of those steps. So I think those, I think for me that's probably probably the most life changing goodbye I've ever had with Mac. How about you?

Beth Demme: 15:34Shortly before my 14th birthday, my oldest brother died in an accident, so it was completely unexpected. That was. That has been formative in my life. But also, I think when I think about saying goodbye to a person, I think about my dad. He passed away in February of 2014. So we're coming up on the 10 year actually of that. And he had been. He had been sick, he had some medical conditions and I knew things were getting harder for him, but then he went into the hospital on a Sunday and passed away on the Friday. So that week everything was really compressed and he was ready. And I think that happens sometimes where the people who are at the end of their life, nearing the end of their life, they're ready maybe before their family members are. It was a time that was really holy and spiritual and filled with a lot of blessings and that in Christianity we would say the peace that passes, understanding, like that idea. So much so that we met with hospice pretty early on, like maybe on Tuesday of that week or something, and there was still an oncology consult kind of out in the paperwork and when the oncologist came, the nurse pulled me aside later and told me the story. But she said, the oncologist came and I explained to him that the consult wasn't needed anymore and he said well, why? And she said well, mr Gibbons is in multi-system organ failure. And the oncologist said yeah, but we could still treat the cancer. And she was mad. The nurse was mad about it. She was like why would he wanna put somebody through that? Why would he wanna put your family through that? She was venting and I was totally at peace. My dad was at peace. This is what he wanted. He was awake and alert and was able to communicate his choices and I was fine with it. And then, like six months later, I thought, oh, no, maybe we should have tried more. Maybe we shouldn't, maybe we gave up. Why did we give up? Well, the truth is we didn't give up. Multi-system organ failure is not something people recover from and his body was done and he was at peace with that. But later I second guessed that and I thought about that on college and I thought, oh, maybe we should have let. No, no, no. It was time to say goodbye.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 18:04When someone dies or something significant dies in your life, do you automatically say goodbye or do you have to come to the realization that you're ready to say goodbye For you questioning these things? Do you think you weren't allowing yourself to actually say goodbye yet because you were still questioning? Or do you think when something dies, automatically you say goodbye?

Beth Demme: 18:28No, I had goodbye, but I think I went from being okay with saying goodbye to thinking I had done the wrong thing by saying goodbye. Questioning your decision, yeah. Questioning my willingness to say goodbye, yeah. And I really wasn't willing. I didn't have a choice.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 18:44So it's more of a process, like you can say goodbye, but you might have to say goodbye a few times for it to stick. Yeah.

Beth Demme: 18:52And I remember it helped me understand. At that point I wasn't practicing law anymore, but I remembered when I practiced law full time. One of the one of my practice areas was that I actually defended nursing homes when they were sued, usually by family members of someone who had passed away in the facility. And there were so many times when I would read the medical records and I would think, obviously this person was going to die. I mean you, just just medically, that's what's happening. And the family had not come to terms with it at all and that's why they had to sue, because they felt like they had to vindicate this death somehow. And it's like blessed. You know, your mother was 112 years old. Like humans don't live forever, you know. But my experience with my dad helped me understand that better in hindsight to go, oh, what I'm feeling now and being like, oh, maybe we should have tried more. That's what those families were feeling, that that was their way to try more.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 19:52Not coming to the reality of, of the, of the goodbye. Really Like you are, like refusing to say goodbye even though you know this person is dead. Yeah.

Beth Demme: 20:02And that's one of the the, the stages of grief. Right Is denial. Yeah, there's a lot you get to before you get to acceptance, and then you can loop back through them again. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. But sometimes there are times when we have to say goodbye to someone long before they pass away. You know someone who's not a healthy influence in our life. In our life, um, I mean, you've, you've shared some of that. There are family members that you, that are not part of your life and never will be, for good reasons.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 20:31Yeah, and it wasn't something that I, like told them to their face, um, because there was nothing, you know, that needed to be happen there. But, yeah, there's people that I have said goodbye to, that I will not talk to again, that I will not not associate with, because for my mental health and for not being, you know, needing to have their influence in my life anymore, their unhealthiness in my life, yeah, and then there's, um, you know, there's friendships that I feel like I always feel like friendships. There's friendships that are in for seasons of your life. In friendship cases, I feel like it's more, um, there was never a definitive goodbye, it just kind of like it just happens over time, just as, like, life progresses and your life's going different directions. I think, in those cases, like there's been times I've looked back at like friendships and realized like, oh, I don't talk to them anymore. Huh, and it's just like you don't realize it, you don't realize that you said goodbye and you never actually mourned it, um, because it just kind of happened. It wasn't kind of like, well, yeah, you just there was just a natural end to it.

Beth Demme: 21:38It just naturally ended. I do think social media keeps some of those friendships alive in a way, uh, kind of can prevent the goodbye, because it's like oh, it's okay, you can touch.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 21:49Yeah, which is nice. Yeah, I could see that A lot of my friends, though, aren't really active on social media, which is Millennials Interesting. Yeah, because we're like how it all started, and yet a lot of my friends, just like are not active at all.

Beth Demme: 22:03Yeah, I can also say like I've been on the other side of it, where I, I am the friend who's like trying to stay in touch through social media. You know, somebody like moves away and I'm like, oh, I miss them, I want to see what's going on in their life. You know, I'm not stalking them on social media, but I'm paying attention. Yeah, I'm paying attention. I want to stay, I want to stay involved and in those cases I was just I was actually just saying this to Hannah this week. I was saying, you know, one of the things about living in Tallahassee is it's sort of transient. You know people come here for a season, they come for school or they come for a job. That ends up. You know, and I was. I was just talking about so many of the people that I've met and really liked. They've moved on to other cities and that can be hard. That's like a forced goodbye, you know, like they're when you're the one being said goodbye to. That's a different thing.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 22:58Well and forced goodbyes is like something where you you don't really have a choice in the matter. Yeah, and that makes me think of we've talked about this a little bit before, but we both went to a united, we both met at a United Methodist church and you are a United Methodist pastor in. The church that we both developed our friendship in was a United Methodist church and recently they voted to leave the United Methodist yes Denomination and to create their own denomination. That was a very jarring, sad reality when I I've always kind of if I was to identify with any religion or any denominations. United Methodist, that's where I was raised in. Do I believe in every single thing within the doctrine? No, well, definitely no, because some things have not changed. But basically the short story of it is United Methodist church wants to allow gay pastors and pastors to marry me Same gender couples. Same gender couples and the people that left do not want those things and they created their own denomination because of that. It's sad because I will never go back to that church. I can never go back to that church. They don't accept me. I am gay, they would tell you. They accept me. Of course we invite anyone into our church, but if you wanna be married, no. If you want to be a pastor here, no.

Beth Demme: 24:25But you're welcome to come and give your money. Yes, you're always welcome to do that, god loves you. But maybe they can even change you.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 24:32Probably. That's, I assume, is their goal. Yes, which is fun, because I was part of that church and it didn't change me for how many years was I in that church?

Beth Demme: 24:41The first time.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 24:43That's why they had to leave. That's why they had to leave because the United Methodist didn't do a good enough job keeping the gays out or just converting the gays.
Beth Demme: 24:52It is sad, though, to lose your home church. Like that's sad To have them walk away from you.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 24:56They did yeah, because we didn't change, we're still United Methodist. We didn't say we don't accept these things, like they told us. We don't accept you and accept all people and we're closing our doors to the United Methodist church. So I would say that's a force goodbye, where I have to be faced with that reality. I didn't choose that reality, I was faced with that and I would say it's still sad. It doesn't like, it just is reality. I think I have accepted it. But it's still sad Because I actually didn't realize I was gay until it's been less than a year. So when they actually left the United Methodist church, I didn't know I was gay. So but I still. It was very hurtful and now it's even more hurtful. Now I realize that they literally ostracized me for who I am and who God made me to be.

Beth Demme: 25:57It is sad and I think one reason it's sad is because I still care about them and I know that they don't care about me.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 26:05Have you ever regretted saying goodbye to something Like in hindsight you realize like you shouldn't have left that something or ended that relationship.

Beth Demme: 26:15I don't think so. I think the closest I've come was the grief over my dad and thinking that maybe we hadn't done enough to delay the goodbye. That's probably the closest I've come. Have you? Have you regretted a goodbye?

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 26:30Well, I am somebody that really thinks through a lot of stuff in life, just in general, everything Like if you ask me to do something, I'm gonna think about it. I'm not just gonna say yes, you know that about me. But when I say yes, that's a hard yes, that's a 100% gonna happen unless I'm sick, yes, so I would say I can't think of any goodbyes. I've regretted and ultimately, with hindsight, I realized how important it was. So like when I left Apple, like I didn't know what was gonna happen next, but I moved back to Tallahassee, I started working at the church and I loved my life, like that was the very best decision for me and for my mental health specifically. And when I left the church, I had literally no idea what I was gonna do and I decided to go full time with Mother in Our Projects and that was eight years ago. I'm still doing that. I can definitely see after saying goodbye, I can see how good and right that decision was and how important that was for me. Now, when it comes to something like saying goodbye to my dog Mac you know it's been almost a year Do I regret that? I mean that's you can't regret something that, like I didn't choose for her to die, but I can see all the positives that she brought to my life. You know, there was a moment where I was like I'm never having a dog again, like I'm never, I can't do this. But then realizing how important the process of saying goodbye was and how important it was that she was in my life for the time she was in my life. So I don't wouldn't say I ever regret goodbyes, but I can definitely see how important they were. That process was in my life. Like no one really wants to like go through a process for anything, Like.

Beth Demme: 28:13I don't think we like are like seeking out oh process.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 28:16This will be good for me, but once you go through it, I don't know that it's going to make it easier necessarily. Actually, my therapist did say the more times I go through the grieving process, the easier it will be in the. Not that I won't go through the giving process, but I think I'll have that like knowledge and it will help like help me win. You know people pass and things like that. So I guess there is something to like. The more we say goodbye, the better we get at it and maybe the more we can consciously know like when the time is to say goodbye.

Beth Demme: 28:50I did just think of a forced goodbye that I was really sad about, but that it ended up not being a forever goodbye. So Steven and I have been married for 28 years, but we started dating in high school and he was a year ahead of me in school and when he came over to the Florida State University he broke up with me because he did not want to have a high school girlfriend, and that was very, very sad for me. I did not want the relationship to end. I was really sad, but then we got back together. So I guess he regretted saying goodbye.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 29:21We'll have to ask him about that. But ultimately, do you think it so more? It was a pause.

Beth Demme: 29:29It ended up being a pause, but there was no way to know that at the time. There was no way to know it.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 29:32So do you think you grieved the relationship and you were over it?

Beth Demme: 29:36I was not over it Okay, but I definitely grieved. My mom still teases me about it to this day. I thought you were going to cry forever. I was sad. I got dumped. I was sad and I wonder what he was feeling.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 29:52You know if he was feeling the same way or if, because, like I would think, a lot of times in a relationship, where a relationship ends, one person's a driving force, in that it can also be a mutual thing. But I think there's probably a lot of times where one person is the one to say goodbye and the other person. So I wonder what the feeling is for the person that says the goodbye versus the person that hears the goodbye, like what the emotional toll is on that.

Beth Demme: 30:19I had to handle a divorce case one time. It was a friend of a partner at the law firm and we represented the husband and he was absolutely done with this marriage. It was a very short marriage, they were very young. He basically said as soon as we got married I knew it was wrong. And I mean they had been married months, why didn't they get?

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 30:36an old then.

Beth Demme: 30:37I don't think they met the requirements for a moment. So we go before the judge, you know, for the divorce and the judge says so, this is what the two of you have decided you want. And the wife was like no, your honor, this is not what I want. I love him and I want to be married to him. And the judge was like, oh snap, ask that question wrong.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 30:56You know like you could see it in his face, you know what he was like.

Beth Demme: 30:59I am so sorry. Let me rephrase that you both understand why you're here today.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 31:06Did the man roll his eyes like oh my gosh.

Beth Demme: 31:09No, he was sad that it was making her sad, but also like he knew it had to be done. He knew it was time to say goodbye and that her being in a marriage with somebody who did not want to be married to her was not ultimately going to be good for her either, you know.

Stephanie Kostopoulos: 31:24Why didn't he want to be married to her? Were you working for him?

​Beth Demme: 31:26Yeah, I was working for him and he didn't have a specific reason. He wasn't. He was like she's actually a nice person, like she's very pretty, she's happy to talk to, like he didn't have. He just he wasn't actually in love with her. It was more like everybody said this was a great relationship and you know everything from like you guys look great together to you seem great together too, and it just snowballed. I think it got away from him and he was young, so he just kind of went with her and he was young and he thought, okay, this is going to be okay. Everybody says it's going to be okay, it's going to be okay. And then he got married and he was like I have done the wrong thing. You know, I should have said goodbye a long time ago and it caused a lot of pain. That he didn't say goodbye sooner that he didn't say goodbye sooner For both of them it caught. You know he caused pain to both of them by not saying goodbye when it was time to say goodbye.
Stephanie Kostopoulos: 32:08Well and I think that's part of saying goodbye is you have to really know yourself and be honest with yourself to be able to do it, to be able to say goodbye and to be able to know Cause like for me it's always been a feeling. But if I'm not in touch enough with myself, then I wouldn't recognize that feeling and especially if you're young, you're not going to recognize that like you would as you get older. It does take some life experience. Yeah, I wonder how many people regret not saying goodbye sooner than anything.
Beth Demme: 32:35Well, one thing we have no choice about saying goodbye to is the calendar changing, and that's getting ready to happen. We're about to say goodbye to a year, say hello to a year. How do you feel about that? You ready? You ready to say goodbye to this year?
Stephanie Kostopoulos: 32:50This has been a year. A year. It started with a bang, with Mac passing away. And then I started to realize that I might be gay. And then I realized I was gay and then I started dating a woman for the first. Well, I started dating really for the first time in my life. I had dated a few guys here and there, but never had a real relationship, so this has been a banger of a year. Yeah, am I ready to say goodbye? Yes, and I'm very interested to see where next year takes me. How about you? Same, I'm the gay thing for sure With you. Yeah, is that what you?
Beth Demme: 33:31learned this year. You didn't tell us about that. I realized this year that Steph is gay and but I have enjoyed seeing how happy you are being yourself, being your authentic self and also being in a relationship. That's been fun to watch Having a gay old time.
Stephanie Kostopoulos: 33:49That's perfect.
Beth Demme: 33:51But I like new beginnings too. So I'm ready for. I'm ready to say goodbye to this year and ready for the new year, and we'll see what 2024 holds. At the end of each episode, we end with questions for reflection.
Stephanie Kostopoulos: 34:05These are questions based on today's show that Beth will read and leave a little pause for you to answer to yourself, or you can find a PDF on our website. Number one what's the last thing you said goodbye to?
Beth Demme: 34:18What emotions are tied to that? Number two what's the hardest goodbye you've ever had? Number three have you ever regretted a goodbye, why? And number four what are your feelings on saying goodbye to? Each year, this has been the Discovering Our Scars podcast. Goodbye.
Stephanie Kostopoulos: 34:38This has been the Discovering Our Scars podcast. Goodbye.

In each episode, we offer you a few prompts to think about how that day's conversation applies to you. You might pause the podcast and answer them right then and there, but if you keep a journal (Steph and Beth both do), feel free to download and print a PDF of the Questions for Reflection we've made just for you: 
​
​Landscape or Portrait

Beth Demme
Host
00:04
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars podcast. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
00:06
Where we share personal experiences so we can learn from each other. I'm Steph and I'm Beth. I've been in recovery for 17 years and am the author of Discovering my Scars, my memoir about what's done in the darkness eventually comes to light. 
00:17
I'm a lawyer, a turn pastor, who's all about self-awareness and emotional health, because I know what it's like to have neither of those things, beth and I have been friends for years, have gone through a recovery program together, and when I wanted to start a podcast, she was the only name that came to mind as co-host. 

Beth Demme
Host
00:30
I didn't hesitate to say yes, because I've learned a lot from sharing personal experiences with Steph over the years. We value honest conversations and we hope you do too. On today's show, we're going to have an honest conversation titled Discovering my Scars Chapter 9. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
00:44
Then we'll share a slice of life, and the show will close with questions for reflection. We'll invite you to reflect on the conversation in your own life. 

Beth Demme
Host
00:51
Chapter 9. Chapter 9 of your memoir Discovering my Scars, the inspiration for our podcast, discovering Our Scars, yes, yeah. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
01:00
We're going to continue right along, so we're going to listen to the audio of the book and then we'll pause between to kind of do a deeper dive. Chapter 9, 43,829 hours. I was 25 years old and had been physically free from Nicole's place for 43,829 hours, In other words, five years. My body was in the free world, but my brain was not. Every day was hard. I lived in fear of going back to Nicole's place and of what happened to me while I was there. I would hear the screams and alarms in my head. I would feel cold and instantly be transported back to my hospital room. I wasn't free. One thing that helped my racing brain music I played the song set me free by casting crowns over and over. 
01:52
During this time. I even made a video depicting scenes from my childhood of me in my dorm room right after my release, including my fresh scars. Little did I know at the time how powerful that juxtaposition was. Each day I felt like the shell of the person I was during the 74 hours of my experience five years earlier. I couldn't keep up my I'm a happy human show anymore. I knew something had to happen. I had to get away from work and look inward. I loved my job at Apple, but I considered quitting it because I was not sure I could get the time off that I needed. Do you ever feel like you're putting on a happy human? 

Beth Demme
Host
02:30
show. Yeah, sometimes I do. I mean not not for days at a time, you know, but for an event or something. I might be like you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna kind of what do I say? Or what do we say? Like I've heard people say like I'm gonna park it. I've even been in meetings like where it starts out that way what do you need to park to be fully present here? I have never heard that word before Park. Is that a new thing? I don't know. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
02:55
It's like wait, what do you need In past or meeting? Oh okay, what do? 

Beth Demme
Host
02:58
you need to park in order, yeah. So what are you gonna park so that you can be fully present for this meeting? 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
03:04
Something you told me a while back that I'm good at. 

Beth Demme
Host
03:07
What's that word? So compartmentalize, yes, yeah. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
03:09
You've said that to me before that I'm good at that. 

Beth Demme
Host
03:12
Yeah. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
03:13
Like putting things like okay, you'll deal with this now, then you're gonna deal with this. Is that like the same thing as parking something? Yes, that's like the new cool pastor word, so yeah. So what are we? 

Beth Demme
Host
03:23
gonna park over here. What do you need to park? I need to park my to-do list. I need to park my you know, this person who I'm worried about because they're in the hospital or whatever. I need to park this so that I can really be here. So that's kind of maybe the the the short term idea of I'm gonna put on a happy human show because it's saying there are things that are distracting me or dragging me down, but I I'm gonna intentionally set them aside for right now. But it sounds like in your book, like this is not just a temporary thing, like this is day after day. You have something that is pulling you back in time and and you're having to Now that I have an opportunity to do that, I have a package called the technical who fake it. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
04:04
Well and I think that's interesting the word like what are you going to park? Because you don't. You know, with a car you don't just keep it parked, you have to keep it moving. And so you're talking about temporarily parking, but then when you get, when you're done, then you're going to move it and work on it. And so for me, this wasn't working on it, it was just this was the show I was putting on and, um, not actually dealing with the stuff that needed to be dealt with. 
04:30
Yeah, one day I got the courage to talk to our new store leader, marco. He and I had a good working relationship. He respected me, my team and my leadership. When the meeting began, I had no idea what I was going to say. All I had was mustard seed faith. 
04:49
I told Marco I loved my job and wanted to keep it, but I needed some time to focus on me and my mental health. I told him I would like to take a month off and go back to Tallahassee to have some time with my doctor. When I finished sharing which I did calmly and concisely he looked at my face with kindness and compassion in his. He told me I could go, I should go. He didn't want to lose me as an employee. He fully supported me taking time off for myself. He said he would let me put vacation and sick time together so I could go get paid with my job waiting for me. When I got back. This was a mustard seed moment. It was a moment that didn't seem real, but it was real because it had been God's plan for me all along. 

Beth Demme
Host
05:31
Okay, I wanted to pause there because you say in the book he told me I could go, I should go, and we've had a lot of conversations about how no one can shoot on us. But this was a good should. That was a good should. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
05:48
Yeah, I knew you would call that out. Yeah, I even texted should to my mom the other day and she was like I'm not going to shoot on you and put should in all caps. I was like what do you think I should do or something? She's like I will not shoot on you. I love that it's become such an ingrained thing that we like yeah If we hear should, oh no, no, no, no. 

Beth Demme
Host
06:11
I. You would be surprised how often I use that. Yeah, yeah, like that's my advice to people oh, don't let anyone shoot on you, yeah. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
06:17
And it's true, because it's something that I think societally like, we just like we do things because we should do them. It's like wait, step back, do you want to? Yeah, is this something you want to do? Like, and don't let somebody tell you what you have to do or need to do. What do you want to do? Is this important to you? And don't just do it because you should. 

Beth Demme
Host
06:39
But this is an example of a good should. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
06:41
Yes, it was. Yeah, I like that. When the time came, I packed and drove to Tallahassee in my green Honda CR-V. During the drive, I began processing. It felt like life stopped. I was taking a break from the path of success. We are told to travel from birth. Get a job, work, get a mate, get a house, get a kid. I pushed on the breaks. No one ever added. Work on yourself. Learn to be, take time to look inward and make sure you are mentally well, happy and the person God made you to be. 

Beth Demme
Host
07:17
Okay, I want to stop you again. We're never going to get through this job, right, that's right. Um, I wonder if this has changed, um, if this is changing generationally, and maybe if COVID pushed us to change this way of thinking a little bit, the idea that you have to just go, go, go, go go. You have to set a goal and and it has to be like a straight line from where you are to that goal, and pausing to work on yourself is not okay, because I feel like I feel like people are better at working on themselves. Now I'm really nervous to say this. 
07:56
So, gen Z and maybe Gen Alpha, which I think is the one after Z, anyway, they, they seem to be all about working on themselves. Like, I have a really wonderful almost 20 year old who works for me and she has no problem texting me and saying I've had a really hard few days and I need time for my mental health and we have a flexible schedule, so it's all. It's easy for me to always say, okay, no problem, come in the next day or, like you know, do this at home or whatever. Um, but she just she wouldn't hesitate to say that, and I don't know if it's because I'm a pastor and she works in a church, or if it's because that generation is better at it, or if maybe COVID moved the needle on it in some way. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
08:41
Why are you so nervous to say it? 

Beth Demme
Host
08:42
Well, I don't want it to sound like I'm being critical of her, because I'm really not. She always gets her work done. She's an excellent you know employee, um great young woman Like. I'm super happy that she and I get to work together, so I don't want it to sound like I'm being dismissive of her needs. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
08:59
But that's interesting. Why do you think that that is making her seem like like less than, or that like? 

Beth Demme
Host
09:06
why do you think that it's not? That is that I don't want it to seem like I think she's less than because she's doing it, but see, when you said the story, I didn't think anything of. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
09:17
I didn't think that at all. But you think, by sharing the story, that it makes you sound like she's less than. 

Beth Demme
Host
09:23
Yeah, like I don't want it to seem like I'm not supportive of the idea of her taking time for her mental health, because I'm all about it, my point really was just that she's she wouldn't hesitate to say I'm going to take time to work on my mental health. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
09:36
When you say that to me I hear great job like knowing yourself, knowing your boundaries, knowing what you need to be the right employee for at your job. That's what I heard. Yes, but when you said it, you think that I'm hearing that she is not a hundred percent dedicated to the job. 

Beth Demme
Host
09:56
Well, I mean, even in the book, like you were, like I don't know how I'm going to handle this with my job telling them that I need to take time off and that you, you were taking a break from the path of success you know. So that's my question is do you think that this is different now? If you were in this situation now, do you think it would be different? 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
10:15
I do think that the younger generation, I do think like millennials, like I think we, you know, break down walls to say, like this is important, like when I was, like in, you know, traditional nine to five, like mental health was not a reason for being out of work, like Apple, now they, you can take mental health days. 

Beth Demme
Host
10:38
Yeah. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
10:39
Like and we were all doing it before, but we felt bad about it when we were calling it a sick day. It's like, well, I'm not sick, but I am, but like and you can just call out for mental health day and I think that is great, but we, I think millennials, we're at that cusper. It wasn't understood and we had to like try to make those changes and I think the younger generation is benefiting from us. Like saying this isn't okay, working a thousand hours a week is not okay, like I need a break. I don't know a lot of younger people. I do know my girlfriend works at a vet office and they have like younger people that work there like in their twenties and yeah, she's told me stories of where the younger people are like I just need a mental health day, which can be annoying because you need like employees. 
11:27
But it's also that balance of like it is a balance. I think. I think it can be overdone, I think it can be done perfect. I also, at the end of the day, it's not my place to to judge someone's journey and what needs to happen. If I worked in a night, traditional nine to five today, maybe I would have a different opinion on that and like setting boundaries in a workplace of what that looks like. But no, I think that's super important that mental health is brought up in a very normal way, just like being sick with you know flu or something I think you know needing a mental health break should be discussed in the same manner. 

Beth Demme
Host
12:10
Yeah, see, when I was, when I was working like as a lawyer, when I was working full time, in that way you didn't take time off Like not even for the flu, right, like you came in, you made everybody else sick because any taking any kind of like unplanned time off was completely unacceptable. You had to plan your vacation in advance. Everybody had to know, and that really needed to be the focus of your life and what your life was organized around, instead of it being that work was just a part of your life. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
12:41
Yeah, and and that was similar when I worked at Apple was like you know, you get this and this, but this is when you're required to be here, and so, and it was. I do think it was. I think millennials are that transitional kind of generation in that sense of, like you had that strict. The generation after us has, like you know, way less strict or more open, and so we were kind of that transition where we were like dealing with both sides of that. A few days into my time away, I got ready for my session with Dr Jill. As I took a shower that morning, I thought about how strange it seemed I was going through all this effort to take time for myself and yet I didn't even know what was wrong with me. But I guess that was the point to try to figure it out with Dr Jill. I wanted to tell her how I felt depressed all the time, how I didn't trust people and how I had flashbacks to the hospital at random moments. 
13:39
Then it hit me Everything was related to the 74 hours. Everything I had been feeling these last five years could be traced back to those moments. It's as if I never left Nicole's place and the system still had control over me. The memories, feelings and overwhelming emotions had a hold on me and brought me back to Nicole's place every day, as I stood in the shower with warm water pouring over my head. I had another flashback. I was back in the ice-cold shower. I had to take in at Nicole's place the first night with my arm wrapped in plastic to protect the stitches. There were no hot and cold handles in the shower. As I walked toward the shower head, ice-cold water suddenly blasts down on me. It was motion activated. The water didn't begin to get warm until I was done with my shower. The feeling of complete sadness, fear and longing to be home filled me. 
14:34
Then, just a few hours before I was to see Dr Jill, it popped into my brain Is this post-traumatic stress disorder? Is that what's wrong? I knew PTSD was large in the military community. I knew it had to do with trauma and flashbacks and that there was a treatment plan. I pushed that thought in the back of my mind. Then I had breakfast and went to see my psychologist. Dr Jill had moved into her new office building since my first sessions with her. She had a small, inviting waiting room with soothing spa music playing. She called me back and I sat on a large couch with her across from me in an armchair. I told her everything that was circling in my brain. In the first 20 minutes she diagnosed me with post-traumatic stress disorder. My PTSD had resulted from the 74 hours. When she said the words, a huge weight lifted off of me. I had a name for what I had been suffering from and it wasn't all in my head. It was very real. It was debilitating, but we could treat it. 

Beth Demme
Host
15:36
What a relief, right To know what it is it's like. Oh, there's a name for this and now I can, with help, I can tackle it, rather than it just being everything is bad and I have to put on a happy human face and I'm just not. Something is just not right. Something about having a name really helps, doesn't it? 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
15:57
Yeah, I mean, I definitely remember feeling the relief of that and just that, because obviously I kind of like thought that just that morning. But also, as we were reading this, it struck me I think it just now struck me I was taking a shower in the morning. I never shower in the morning, I always shower at night. So this is so strange to me. I have no idea why I was showering in the morning, yeah, like what. And then like I, because I wouldn't have had that like flashback, mm-hmm, it's just so like wow, cause anyone that knows me knows like I never shower in the morning unless I don't even know why. Like I have no idea why. Yeah, that is so strange to me, but I guess it was like what needed to happen. It was just like you know it all it all is how it's supposed to happen. Yeah, I definitely just I felt like a relief and like oh, this is something I've heard of, we can treat it. 

Beth Demme
Host
16:57
Right, she, like Dr Jill, knows what to do with PTSD. Okay, good, yeah, yeah, all right. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
17:04
Now I had my what. Knowing what the problem was, I needed my how. How do I treat this? Dr Jill told me there was not a magic pill, although it could get back on depression meds, but she didn't think that would help. Based on my history, the way you treat PTSD is to talk about the traumatic events. Dr Jill told me what I thought. Talk, talk about the things that tear me up inside and feel like knives jabbing through my heart if I acknowledge them. So simple, yet so terrifying. All right, so now I'm not so happy. I thought we had some magic pills and stuff. 
17:40
Right, right, so now you're saying all you do is talk, right. So I went from like yay, we have an answer to whoa. 

Beth Demme
Host
17:48
No, no, no, that does not seem like the pill I wanted. I don't want to bask in these memories. They're terrible memories. They make me uncomfortable. I don't want to live in that moment again and again, but your body, for five years, had been waiting for you to really deal with it. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
18:04
Yeah, and to release it. And that's all you do is you say it to release it. And that was no. No, I was not excited about it. Yeah, I went to my magic pill and the PTSD goes away. So what you can do, well, actually there's not a lot of like the flu. You can't really take a magic pill. 

Beth Demme
Host
18:26
There's not really magic pills for many things. Well, I think people would say, like there's a pill for high blood pressure, there's medicine for diabetes, there's, you know, like some of those things you can manage with medication. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
18:39
Yeah. 

Beth Demme
Host
18:41
But this and it's, like you say, so simple yet so terrifying. Like it doesn't sound like it would be hard to just talk about something, but sometimes there are things that are really hard to talk about. Talk about the worst moment of your life and go Right, right, but it works, it does. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
19:00
Oh, it is yeah, cause I'm on the other side of this. Yeah, it totally works. But even now, like reading it, I'm like, yeah, that's not fun, I want to cookie after at least. Yeah, truly though now I think about it Like I could have like gotten something special after each of the sessions to like, but I didn't. I just you didn't need it. 

Beth Demme
Host
19:20
Yeah, you just powered through. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
19:22
Powered through Dr Jill, helped me understand that what happened to me was not right and the hospital is at fault for my PTSD because of its lack of proper treatment. During the 74 hours. Everyone seemed so disgusted by my wound. I just couldn't understand why this was all they focused on until I started meeting with Dr Jill again. She told me they thought I was trying to kill myself a failed suicide attempt. It may seem obvious to you reading this now, but I honestly had no idea. This is what everyone was thinking. For me, self-injury is unrelated to suicide, but after Dr Jill made this connection for me, I started to see why everyone had concluded this. 

Beth Demme
Host
20:08
I just want to affirm that yes, it is obvious to everyone who's reading this. Of course, they thought that you were trying to take your own life. That's why they made comments about how deep you had cut and the whole hamburger comment and all that and why they were so I mean, still, they did not do what they needed to do. Nothing about it was handled right. But I think even the police officer thought that. So I just wanted to say yes. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
20:38
Dr Jill reminded me that I'm not a cutter. I should have never been sent to CRC, she said, because I was not trying to kill myself or harm others. I was engaging in non-suicidal self-injury NSSI the act of feeling so much and not having physical pain to show for it. My coping was to make the internal pain real. 
20:59
According to the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-5, the diagnostic feature of NSSI is an individual repeatedly inflicting shallow yet painful injuries to the surface of his or her body. Most commonly, the purpose is to reduce negative emotions such as tension, anxiety and self-reproach, and or to resolve an interpersonal difficulty. The injury is most often afflicted with a knife, needle, razor or other sharp objects. Common areas for injury include the frontal area of the thigh and the dorsal side of the forearm. A single session of injury might involve a series of superficial parallel cuts, separated by one or two centimeters, on a visible or accessible location. When I read into NSSI, I realized I was a classic textbook case. It's like they wrote the diagnostic all about me. It was comforting to have an official name for my coping. 

Beth Demme
Host
21:57
Again, it's comforting to have a name for it. Yeah, I would imagine that you feel less strange, maybe like oh, I'm not the only one and this isn't something that Dr Jill's never seen before Like this is something that is known and understood. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
22:14
The odd thing, though, is it was a fairly new realization within the diagnostic for a psychologist. Like their DSM-5, like there's five versions of that, I mean there might be a six now. Every time there's a new published one, they have new diagnostics and things like that inside of it, and so this was new for the fifth version, so I was kind of dealing with this while it was becoming known. Also, and even though it is known in the it's official diagnostic, it's still not like when I tell people about it they've never heard of it, like medical professionals, like they are like what, and so I mean it's in the name, not just a thing of injury. 
22:59
it kind of self-explanatory, but it still is not like something that is like regularly known and used in common language because it's there, but it's not something that has, like, hit social media or anything in that sense that I believe I don't like super follow that. 

Beth Demme
Host
23:19
but but also especially five years before this. It definitely wasn't part of. It was not understood. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
23:28
Yeah. 

Beth Demme
Host
23:30
You also say that Dr Jill reminded you that you're not a cutter, so can you tell me what that means? 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
23:37
Well, cutter is the term kind of she used for someone that was suicidal, like cutting themselves to, you know, for possible, like suicidal purposes, and it's very much a distinguishing factor. So if someone is trying to, you know, die by suicide, they cut in a way that would like cut the vein. Yes, and mine, as they say in the description, is like the parallel cuts lower down, like where I cut or where I, you know, self-injured was not a way that could result in. 
24:14
If it resulted in suicide in some capacity, it would have been an accident Like it wouldn't have been, but not I don't even think that could have happened with the way it was done. Yeah, I don't know if that's still like the proper terminology, but she would use the word cutter as someone that was suicidal. 
24:32
Suicidal and so not suicidal self-injury is the opposite. But people still use those terms like actually, sometimes my dad will call me a cutter and I'm like, okay, like oh, I heard about someone else, it's a cutter like you, or something like that. I'm like, good job, psychologist. I correct him. I'm like, well, was it not suicidal self-injury? Like how was the? What kind of cuts, were they? But yeah, so. So there are people that still will use the terms interchangeably, and then I'll correct them. People are like oh, yeah, yeah, that's what I mean. 

Beth Demme
Host
25:04
Yeah, Okay great. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
25:09
Over the next few weeks I followed my PTSD treatment plan. I talked, I wrote, I scribbled real and raw feelings and burned them, as Dr Jill instructed me to do. I talked to my parents and my friends. I let it all out. Getting the hellish events out of me was freeing. So was crying. Dr Jill liked to prescribe a good cry. During our sessions over the month, dr Jill would remind me with a reassuring smile that you are not crazy. The police don't know how to handle these kinds of situations, so they bring all patients like this to the same place. The place you are in sounds like a place here in town and it's not a hospital you should ever be in. They drug people and put them back in the streets. Every session was hard. They were draining, emotionally and physically exhausting. After going through it, I knew I could have never done it. While still working at Apple Mustered Seed, faith helped me get to this place of healing. 
26:05
As my time in Tallahassee was coming to an end, my mom recommended a new primary care doctor for me. A few years earlier I had stopped taking Zoloft because, having been on it for years, I began to feel it controlling my emotions and making me unrealistically happy. It was a weird and scary sensation. I wanted to go back on birth control as my depression got worse around my cycle, but I had been too afraid to see a doctor to prescribe it. Dr K was my mom's doctor and went to our hometown church. I was so nervous and scared to see her. I told Dr K about my past and what I wanted to do medication-wise. She listened and her tone and body language weren't judgmental. All the emotions hit me while telling my story and I started to cry. I cried because she heard me, she saw me and she didn't judge my scars. She gave me the prescription for birth control and restored my trust in medical professionals. She has been my primary care doctor ever since. I do want to say she's still my doctor today, and so I've known her since this, which was years and years ago, and recently we've talked about the podcast. But I realized that I was gay and so I, when my last set, my last doctor's appointment, I told her and I was like not sure how she would respond because well, first I thought it's going to be cool. I mean, she's a doctor, like that's like she's professional, that's normal. But also I knew her from my church and I know a lot of church people that are judgmental about things that are outside of their worldview and so I really wasn't sure and when I told her it was just like I had told her. I was straight and it was very cool and chill and actually every single person that I had cared to tell in my life has been cool and chill about it. But yeah, so just like she was with this same thing, just like Great cool, I made great progress that month and the months after I was able to see doctors again and take care of my health. 
28:19
I also started to get acupuncture for chronic neck and shoulder pain and unexplainable pain I've had since childhood. I had dozens of sessions with my acupuncturist and I'd become really comfortable with the process. But one day something went wrong. As I lay there, she put the needles in like normal, but this time she put a few in my left arm, not near my scars, just on the same arm. As she inserted them, I had a flashback to the needle they used to numb my arm right before they put the stitches in at the ER. She finished putting in the acupuncture needles and left the room for 45 minutes, as she normally did. 
28:57
But this time I felt paralyzed. I knew I could hit the emergency button and she would come back in and take the needles out, but I couldn't move. I couldn't think. The acupuncture needles felt like knives. They burned and froze me. 
29:10
For the next 45 minutes I went back five years in time. I was back in that tiny emergency room getting stitches. I felt the pain. I smelled the medical scent of the room. I heard the nurse tell me to sit while the doctor worked. I tasted my salty tears because the pain was so great. I felt the pain, but I also felt the numbness and the sensation of my arm being stitched with needle and thread. I felt the pull and tug. I had the same sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. 
29:39
Finally, my acupuncturist came back into the room and removed the needles. Like normal. I kept myself together long enough to pay and get to my car. Then I broke down. I ugly cried all the way home. I had never had a flashback that bad, that real. I was afraid to go back, worried it would happen again. Having worked through my PTSD does not mean it's gone for my life. Dr Jill told me it would stay with me and I might still have flashbacks, but by working on it the memories would not haunt me and the flashbacks would not completely shut down my world. I would recognize the feelings and work through them. Dr Jill was right. The next week I did go back and I summoned up the courage to tell my acupuncturist what happened. I told her about the 74 hours. She was so understanding and kind to me. She never put needles in my left arm again and I never experienced a flashback in an acupuncture session again. 
30:35
That flashback sounds really horrible. 
30:38
It was yeah, I can still fully remember that reading through that. 
30:44
It was. 
30:45
Yeah, I can feel what that felt like in laying there with that. 
30:51
But yeah, that's what flashbacks are like. I mean, honestly, I haven't had a flashback in a while. Like I can't think of the last one I had and it's been like I still deal with NSSI thoughts at times, like when things are just like, when things are seeming like falling apart. So probably, like maybe six months ago, I had the thought pop in my head and talk to Jill about it and I didn't engage in it, but I did have the thoughts and she always reminds me like you're gonna have the thoughts. It's very much doled over time Like it's not, as it's not something I stress about, it's not something I like get overly concerned about. But if I am having multiple things that kind of tear me down, I can really get to that place and I just have put so much work into it that I just remember to keep putting that work into it and just go through my healthy tools to get through them. But yeah, I haven't really had a scar kind of pain in a really long time. 

Beth Demme
Host
32:04
I wonder if there was something about this session with the acupuncturist that obviously I mean it sounds like it was really really hard, but I wonder if there was some sense in which it was a release of some of that, so that it wouldn't continue to wait for you to feel it and address it. You know, and because you were engaging in so much health care and so much healthy work, you know, with the acupuncture and with your psychologist and with the journaling and with you know that like that was the moment at which your body could say, okay, now I release this. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
32:36
Yeah, that's an interesting look at it. Yeah, I mean in the sense of like there was like moments that there was just always gonna be things down the timeline that needed to be released in the proper way and you know, maybe this was the way that this was always needing to be released. Yeah, that's interesting. 

Beth Demme
Host
32:57
Yeah well, I've said it before and I'm sure I will say it again, but I think that it's so brave of you to relive this by putting it down on paper and by writing the book and by now revisiting it. I think that that takes courage and I think that people can, even if you know they'll have their own story. But I think it is relatable and I think it's good that you've been courageous to share this. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
33:23
Thank you, pastor Beth. So, beth, we did an episode kind of about holiday season and we just that's where we are. 

Beth Demme
Host
33:35
we're in the holiday season. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
33:37
We're in it and we just kind of got through Thanksgiving and all that. So was there anything different that happened this year for your Thanksgiving? 

Beth Demme
Host
33:46
Yeah, any new members, we had a dog at Thanksgiving which is really unusual. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
33:50
Wait, your house. 

Beth Demme
Host
33:51
At my house oh. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
33:53
That's big. We also had like 20 humans at the house. Oh and humans. 

Beth Demme
Host
33:57
Yeah, but my daughter Hannah, who's been a guest on the podcast. She got a dog a few months ago and yes, that's big. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
34:06
You guys are not dog people. 

Beth Demme
Host
34:07
We're not dog people. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
34:07
You and your husband. 

Beth Demme
Host
34:08
And both of my kids said as soon as I move out, I'm getting a pet. 
34:12
Yes, and they did Rebels. I love it. They did so. My son got a cat and Hannah went to the county shelter and adopted a dog and he's very sweet, very chill, and his name is Scooby Scooby-oo, because he's sort of looks like Scooby. Mainly he's the same color as Scooby, and not so much in the face but in his body he looks like Scooby. 
34:40
And when we knew that she was gonna, that she was gonna make a dog a part of her life, my husband was very much like I need everyone to understand that the dog cannot come to the house. My gosh, we are not going to take care of the dog. This dog is not going to be our responsibility in any way. This is a hundred percent on her. And I was like okay, whatever. And he communicated that to her very clearly and I was like that's really between them. And then it got to be Thanksgiving week and we wanted her to be with us all day on Thanksgiving and she was like well, I am taking care of Scooby and so I'll need to bring him no-transcript. Suddenly her dad was like okay, no problem. And Scooby was at the house Thanksgiving day and all day Black Friday because she and I and other folks in the family went shopping and then all day Saturday, because she also had plans all day that day. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
35:37
Did your husband babysit when you were he dog sat, he dog sat, he dog sat. What did Scooby do? 

Beth Demme
Host
35:42
during the day. He well, he's like very chill, like he'll walk around some and then he'll sit down, and you know, he's just got that kind of dog, yeah, so he just like chilled with your husband. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
35:53
Yeah, he just chilled, it was really easy. Did he hang out in the gr-? Was your husband working on cars or anything? No, he was watching football. 

Beth Demme
Host
36:00
Oh okay, yeah, yeah. So they sat and watched football together basically. But what was really funny is when I I was kind of telling some people at church about it, I was like I can't believe it. But Steve was like yeah, he can come over on Thanksgiving. And they were like you didn't know he was gonna say that and I was like no, I mean he's been pretty adamant, consistently adamant, about this and they were like we totally knew he was gonna change his mind. 
36:22
We totally knew that he would do whatever Hannah wanted him to do and I was like, oh, that's a good point. I should have looked at it from that angle. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
36:28
But he didn't even say like, bring his crate, keep him crated, do you say? 

Beth Demme
Host
36:31
anything like that. No, he did ask her to get something in case Scooby needed to be in the yard like a long like, like a long dog run kind of thing, yeah, a tether yeah, but it ended up we didn't even use that Like she put it. She went and she, you know, put it in the ground on Thursday morning and everything, but he stayed in the house the whole time. He did not stay with us overnight, but he was there all day for three days in a row. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
36:56
So when Hannah goes out of town, you'll definitely be keeping him overnight, right, that's what it sounds like I don't know. 

Beth Demme
Host
37:01
Maybe if we could crate him, maybe. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
37:03
Well, doesn't she crate him? 

Beth Demme
Host
37:05
No. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
37:05
During the day, not anymore. 

Beth Demme
Host
37:07
Not anymore. Oh, okay yeah. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
37:09
So you could also gait him in an area, like I do with Tosh at night yeah that's true, and I mean she's super chill with that. She actually likes that comfort of having that like space, but it's not like a super small crate or anything, so you could gait her in like an area of your room or something. Maybe we could, although she hasn't asked you to keep him overnight but it sounds like it's gonna happen. 
37:32
It's gonna happen. You guys are gonna have your own. My mom was never a dog person, my parents aren't and my mom, like when I told her I wanted to get Greyhound, she was like, okay, that's your house you know, and she absolutely loves my Greyhounds. When I had, you know, I had Mack and Tosh and and she just like loved just playing with them and everything. And Mack passed away, you know, almost a year ago, and my mom's always like, when are you getting? 

Beth Demme
Host
37:58
a second. You know she's, she's ready for me to have more dogs and, yeah, I could, she. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
38:05
I could see her possibly having a dog one day. Although she likes me doing all the stuff and she's good to play with them, right, she does enjoy that aspect. 

Beth Demme
Host
38:13
Yes, I still do not want a dog, but I'm happy to hang out with Hannah's dog. And I don't mind helping out more because I care about Hannah than because I care about the dog, if that makes sense, like I care about the dog because it is important to Hannah. Yes, yeah. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
38:28
I think my mom cares about me but loves my dogs. I think you can't not like when you, just when they like cuddle with you, it's like okay, well, here's my bank account information. Get what you need. 

Beth Demme
Host
38:43
I did intentionally go and buy treats because I was like and I will be buying Scooby's love with treats. Scooby's love, that's what I did. Yeah, so well, actually, hannah actually brought some over and she labeled him that Scooby's love, yes, but then I went and got him some better ones, oh, Full moon. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
38:57
That brand makes really good like natural dog treats. It's like just chicken and they have my target. Like you could eat it. It's human grade. 

Beth Demme
Host
39:05
They call it human grade, but no, I have not eaten that much. Yeah, I'm not going to try that. I'm not an adventurous eater anyway, so not going to eat a dog treat. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
39:16
As we now say, adventurous eaters mean you'll eat dog treats. Well, you know, to be fair, my girlfriend works at a vet's office and she says they have tried a lot of dog treats there and she's an adventurous eater. So maybe you're right Adventurous eaters mean you'll also eat dog treats. 

Beth Demme
Host
39:32
Yeah, I just have standards. Even if it's human grade, it might not be Beth grade. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
39:41
I love it. At the Niveach episode we end with questions for reflection. These are questions based on today's show that Beth will read and leave a little pause between for you to answer to yourself, or you can find a PDF on our website. 

Beth Demme
Host
39:56
Number one is there music that you go to when you're dealing with hard realities in your life? Number two are there times when you feel like you're putting on a happy human show? Number three have you ever had a flashback? Describe what it felt like and what it was about? Number four can you relate to the idea that having a name for something, a diagnosis, makes it easier to deal with? And number five on a scale of one to 10, how much do you trust the medical profession? How does that impact how often you see a doctor? 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
40:32
This has been the Discovering Our Scarves podcast. Thank you for joining us. 

Beth Demme
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars podcast, where we share personal experiences. We can learn from each other. Our mission is to talk about things you might relate to but that you don't hear being discussed in other places. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Our hope is that you're encouraged to have honest conversations with people in your own life. 

Beth Demme
I'm Steph and I'm Beth. On today's show we're going to have an honest conversation titled why Do Holidays Hit Different? 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Then we'll share a slice of life, and the show will close with questions for reflection. We'll invite you to reflect on the conversation in your own life. 

Beth Demme
So here we are in the swing of things. Thanksgiving has happened. Yes, it's like we're barreling towards Christmas. So exciting, such an exciting time of the year. Does it feel different for you this time of year? I think it hits different. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Yeah, I think so. We should talk about that, yeah. 

Beth Demme
Why does this time of year hit different? Because it really does. I mean, it is a. It's my favorite time of year. Is it your? 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Yeah, that's an interesting question, Because you said that I was thinking is it my favorite time of year? I don't think it's my favorite time of year. You know, every time we're in a season, we start a season, I think, oh man, this is great. Like we started fall and I'm like, oh, I like fall. And then I was like, but then when spring hits, I'm like I like spring, it was summer. 

Beth Demme
I don't love it. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
I don't love it because it's so hot, but then I like winter, so I don't think this is my favorite time of year. But I do think this time of year is feels different, with all of the holidays almost stacked up. When you kind of think about it, there's like a ton of holidays stacked up and then you just it's, you're almost like closing out a year and you're slowing down and it just is like natural feeling with like cause it gets darker sooner and it's colder and so you're almost bundled up and kind of you know shutting down for shutting down one year and welcoming another year. So there's just, yeah, I mean it's. I wouldn't say it's my favorite time of year, but I would say I definitely like like this time of year cause it does feel different than the rest of the year. 

Beth Demme
Yeah, I think it is my my favorite time of year, and part of it, I think, is because it seems like there are things that people generally look forward to, so people feel kind of I don't know more joyful, happier I mean not always right. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Like, yeah it's, it's interesting because you do have these two, these two sides, like you know you, you're either like love I feel like you either love this time of year or this is a really hard time of year for you because I think, the same reasons why it can be like a joyous time, it can also the opposite of it can be like a sad, depressing time of year for the same reasons as Joyful for you, like if you've had a lot of, if you used to spend it with family and like had some good memories, and then, like some of those have passed or something traumatic happened in this time of year, then it can be the completely opposite this could be your least favorite time of year, yeah. 

Beth Demme
I mean I. I hope you won't mind me saying this, but this is my husband's least favorite time of year. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Oh, wow, we should have had him on. Yeah, that would have been interesting to hear his, his take on that. Because, yeah, I definitely wouldn't say it's my favorite, I wouldn't say it's my least favorite, but I think it's taken me a while to hone in on this time of year for me. So I think I've gone through stages of loving it, of not loving it, because I think there's so much tradition wrapped up in holidays. That usually is a good thing. It's like, oh, traditions, we like traditions. 

But sometimes I don't like traditions for traditions sake, like I don't like to do something just because that's what we're supposed to do during. You know, this time of year that that just makes me kind of annoyed, it doesn't bring me comfort. Like I don't really like Thanksgiving foods and we would like have Thanksgiving foods every year. My mom doesn't like them either. And we finally were one year like why are we doing this? Like none of us like this food, why are we eating this food? And then we finally were like, okay, let's make some changes. And now I like Thanksgiving more. You know, when you kind of take control and decide for yourselves and not just do it because you know that's what we're supposed to do. But how about you Do? You do things, cause that's what we're supposed to do, and you enjoy that I mean, I like conformity. 

Beth Demme
And so I know I do, and I think part of that comes from how I grew up, where I really felt like we were always on the outside and like we were never really doing. That's not. It's not fair to say we were never doing the things other families were doing. I didn't feel like we were. I knew my family was different. I mean, I knew that we weren't as I don't know the right words. 

but like that, we we had troubles that other families didn't have. As an adult, now, looking back on it, I'm like a lot of families have those troubles, but as a kid it really felt, you know, isolating to me, and so I liked that connection to the rest of the world. Oh, thanksgiving is a time of year when we're doing what other families are doing. This is good, right, we're going to eat turkey. I don't really like turkey, but we're going to eat turkey because that's what other families are doing. So that brought me a sense of comfort. So there are a lot of traditions that I embrace for the sake of tradition. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Do you have a favorite tradition that is like a society's tradition that you really like, or do you even really like the society traditions Like? You might not like them, but you just do them because, like you said, you want to be like everyone else. 

Beth Demme
Yeah, no, I mean, there is comfort in it for me. So I do like it. Like we always do have turkey on Thanksgiving and it's not my favorite food, but I can eat it once a year, thank goodness. The tradition is not to have fish, because I don't like to eat fish at all, so thank goodness, right. But we also have to have ham because not everybody likes turkey. So we'll have ham because Hannah, my daughter, she doesn't like to eat turkey. Okay, that's reasonable. We'll have ham. You can have ham, I like ham too. Yeah, so she has ham at Thanksgiving. And but then there are all the sides, like I love stuffing, I love macaroni and cheese, I love pumpkin pie. All that stuff is good to me. 

And the tradition of gathering, you know, basically in the largest family group we can assemble, I love that part of the tradition too. So there are a lot of traditions around Thanksgiving that I really love. And then at Christmas it's kind of the same thing. You know that the to know that we are. Well, one of my favorite Christmas traditions is we open one present on Christmas Eve. Do you do that? I can't remember. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Yes, I believe in that tradition, but my sister in law doesn't, and so it's been a. We haven't done it for a while because, yeah, she, because. 

Beth Demme
I do believe in that. The nibblings mom, yes. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
And the nibblings. You know, that's what the hall, that's what like Christmas specific more is about, is about the nibblings now, and like I don't really care about gift giving, but like, if there was, yeah, I do kind of like that idea of like one before. Yeah, yeah, Actually, my sister in law and my brother, both of them, I think, agree with that concept, so it's like I'll respect it. I don't like about respect, although I give the nibblings, my gift Thanksgiving, because my gift is an advent calendar every year, so you get that way before. 

Beth Demme
Christmas, but you do give them something at Christmas also, no their gift is the advent calendar. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Okay, and I remind them every Christmas member, it's become a tradition. But every year, like I already bought it, I get to Lego advent calendar. Yeah, I love those and I always ask them way before which one they want, because actually Costco usually has a couple of them on sale or, you know, at Costco prices, and so I already got all of them and I haven't wrapped them yet, but I have them all and so I'll give them to them around Thanksgiving. But I asked them every year if they want one, like I don't just assume I do like the tradition of it, that that's what I always give them and I'll say, easy, I like that. But I do always ask, like, do you want another advent calendar? And they like it Because I think it's also fun, because Christmas, like you, especially like for kids, it's like you get all these gifts on one day and it's like it almost becomes white noise at some point because it's just a bunch of stuff. 

And so I like the little gift every day, like the little fun surprise every day, like that's what I like. So that's also why I wanted to do that instead of a gift on Christmas to get lost. 

Beth Demme
Yeah, I will say we do advent calendars too and I always have fun picking them out and I get. We're at a point now where I get different ones, you know, for different people in the family, but I kind of know what I'm going to get. Like, I got my mom a coffee one because she drinks a cup of coffee every day. Anyway, I buy Hannah a makeup one, and have you seen? 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
the Trader Joe's ones. I haven't. Those are really nice. They have like a beauty. It's not makeup, but it's like skincare. Yeah, yeah, and they're really good. 

Beth Demme
Yeah, and then I'll get. Last year I got Peter one that had a different cat toy every day because he had, you know, gotten a cat not long before that. This year I'll probably get him something more food related, something that's more for him. Oh, costco has a dog one. 

Oh, that should get that one, yeah, get that for Scooby, for Hannah's dog and I like for a couple of years. I love caramels and for a couple of years there was one available that was different flavored caramels, which some of them were truly disappointing, like truly. But the structure of the advent calendar itself was a problem, and so then it was like you couldn't get one a day because you had to disassemble the whole thing, so that kind of lost its fun and I don't even think they saw that one anymore, couldn't find it. So yeah, so I love that tradition actually of advent calendars. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
You got me an advent calendar last year with teas and actually I made a note every day of the teas, like if I liked it, if it's something that I would want, and there was one that I really, really liked and I actually bought it. I bought a canister of it. I have it and I have it like every other day. 

Beth Demme
Yeah, hopefully, there was like more than one out of 25 that you liked there was. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Yes, there was a lot of them that I liked, but that one like really like I kept like thinking about that, like I didn't want to buy like a whole bunch of teas, and so I was like I was like, okay, what's my very favorite in that? Yeah, I can't remember what it was called, but it's just like a nice light flavor. 

Beth Demme
It's like a white tea. I like that yeah. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
I'm glad you liked that. Yeah, I think advent calendars is super fun. I do think they probably need to change their name because it's odd to me. Like I understand, advent is like celebrating Jesus, it's like it's like we're awaiting, yeah, but like they've just become a toy for us and like maybe a countdown calendar. But it's weird that like it still has like a Christian name, but like nothing is Christian about it, it's just a little toy. Nothing is Christian, or a toy, or a treat or something like that. 

That's nothing Christian about that. It's just odd that, like so many things have become commercialized and this is commercialized, but the name is still very Christian. 

Beth Demme
Right, it's true actually that's weird, yeah, because it's like a Christian season, that's the first season of the Christian year, like the year starts over on the first Sunday of Advent, and so and so just the fact that that name still stuck. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Like the Lego ones are called Lego advent calendar. Like why not a countdown calendar? 

Beth Demme
Yeah, not Christmas countdown yeah. I know, as if Christmas is like too overtly Christian, so we'll just call it an advent calendar. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, it's an odd one, but as you're talking, you're talking a lot about, like holidays and family associated with that. So to you, or do does holiday and family always go together? Yes, they do. 

Beth Demme
It's a time when we're able to Like collectively, like we stop and we intentionally spend more time with family, which I don't I don't really know, in my family at least. We're not good about doing that in other times of the year, like we don't. I know some families you know they get together every summer. My family just never did that. So Christmas was a time where it was like no, everybody's gonna take off work and we're gonna spend time together. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
11:35
When you say family, are you talking about like your husband and kids, or are you talking about like your parents, siblings? 

Beth Demme
Host
11:42
I mean more extended family. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
11:44
So you get together with extended family. 

Beth Demme
Host
11:46
Only for Thanksgiving. So okay, so Christmas is my husband, my kids and the kids' grandparents and my sister-in-law. Last year she didn't spend Christmas with us and honestly it made us all sad. So this year she's a travel nurse, so she has to be real intentional about how she schedules her contracts. But this year she scheduled it so she can be with us at Christmas, so that'll be good. Does she have a contract here? 
12:12
No, she'll take yeah, it'll be one of her off times and then. But Thanksgiving usually well, sometimes it's both sides of our family and sometimes it's just my side of the family that comes and we set up a big table. You know, 15 or 20 people, wow. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
12:27
And your house yeah. 

Beth Demme
Host
12:29
Where do you set the table up? We take the dining room table and extend it to the front door. Oh, so you turn it that way? Okay yeah, cause it's already turned. When you walk in the front door and you look straight ahead, the dining room table is like straight ahead of you. Do you use a dining room on a regular basis? No, we use it every Thanksgiving and Christmas. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
12:46
Okay, yeah that's what I was wondering. Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah, that's about right, but it's at least it's open. It's not like a closed off room that you never go in, so it's not like it just keeps the house open. 

Beth Demme
Host
12:57
And actually being able to extend the table in that way was part of how we designed the dining room. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
13:02
Yeah, that's right. 

Beth Demme
Host
13:03
So that it could extend into the four year. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
13:05
It's a lot of forward thinking. 

Beth Demme
Host
13:06
that's good, yeah, yeah it was intentional on our part, because we really did want to spend it with. We knew we wanted to spend the holidays with as much family as we could gather together. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
13:13
So that's wow. That's like really forethought and also shows how important the holidays is to you, is like when you literally design your house you thought, okay, we need a big table for Thanksgiving, so how can we design this room to fit that? So that is real dedication to holidays. So I could see family holidays for sure. 

Beth Demme
Host
13:33
Yeah, does it work that way for you? Do you think holiday and family go together? 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
13:38
It has in the past, like growing up like we would get together with family. Like I said, I don't really like things where it feels like we have to do this because this is what you have to do. So I don't really like to get together with extended family during this time of year. I like to see like my niblings and brother and sister-in-law and a lot of times we do get together for Thanksgiving or Christmas. They don't live until it has anymore, so it becomes a little bit more complicated and sometimes they're with my sister-in-law side of the family. 
14:12
So I personally like to spend time with family random times of the year. Like I prefer just getting together like randomly and not having this like forced society's pressure of like this is when we get together, which is like completely opposite than you Like you love being forced societally to get together, but I just never have enjoyed the social norms of like this is like why we do stuff. So I, but I have I do like this time of year. For me part of it is like the weather, like I feel like the weather kind of is different. 
14:48
Like it's cozy weather. It's cozy Like, and I like cold weather. It's usually hot here, just always hot, even like we've been having some like fall weather, which is really nice, but it's gonna get back to hot days Like it does. So I like when we're in like winter time and it's just pretty consistently cold. It's not always, but I really like that. Feel so for me, like that's why it hits. Different too. It's just like the weather makes it is different here than it typically is, cause, as much as everyone loves sunshine and everything, I'm not that big a fan of it. I know I live in Florida. It's wasted on me. 

Beth Demme
Host
15:25
I knew a woman once who told me that they they had moved to Tallahassee because her husband had accepted a new job here. But they came and visited before he accepted the job and she was like but I feel like the company intentionally brought us during the second week of November, when the weather would be perfect and crisp and lovely, because now it's July and it's not like that that's smart. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
15:54
That's a smart move. Yeah, great time to bring them. 

Beth Demme
Host
15:57
There might have been some intentional thought gone into that, like when you should come visit, because November in Tallahassee is amazing, yeah, yeah, I definitely think the weather plays a factor in the overall like joy of the season too, you know, cause? It's not, it's not, oh, it's so hot, it's, you know, oppressively hot, but also it's not so cold that it's like, oh, we can't. You know, oh, you know, I'm freezing, I gotta. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
16:22
Yeah, I mean, it's still Florida cold. It's still Florida cold, yeah. 

Beth Demme
Host
16:25
Don't get. Don't get crazy. Listen, one of my favorite, one of my favorite colleagues, one of my favorite people in town. She's talking about me people. It's gonna be me no-transcript so close so close, is moving because they wanted to live somewhere cold. So they are moving to Wisconsin, which is not. 
16:47
Are they a Methodist pastor? Yeah, it's not the easiest thing to do, Like she had to tell the bishop. You know, for the conference in Wisconsin. Hey, I'd really like to come serve a church there, if you have one. Where are they from? They're both native Floridians. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
17:03
Oh weird. So they just had always that's a strange one. 

Beth Demme
Host
17:07
They have no family. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
17:08
And they just want to be somewhere cold. 

Beth Demme
Host
17:09
They just want to live somewhere that it's not so hot. I mean I can get behind that. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
17:12
I like cold so and I would be okay with that, like living somewhere. 

Beth Demme
Host
17:16
I mean, people always say it gets old fast, but yeah, actually I said they're both native Floridians and that's not quite right, because I think her husband grew up somewhere cold because he knows how to play ice hockey, so he must have grown up somewhere cold. Yeah, but she's definitely a native Floridian, like you know, the hot part of Florida, like Tampa, yeah, wow. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
17:33
Well, as a pastor, I feel like especially the Christmas holiday is like big for you. Is that something? Do you really like the? I mean that seems like a silly question, but do you really like the Christian? 

Beth Demme
Host
17:47
holiday. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
17:49
I guess all that goes into it, Cause I would assume, as a pastor, there's a lot of work things for you Like. Is that stressful, Is that good for you Like? And I also know there's like there's a couple services that you do around this time of year. 

Beth Demme
Host
18:01
Yeah, I do extra services. I also do an extra Bible study, so December is very busy. Yeah, because I teach two extra classes every week, so Sunday and Wednesday, that adds a lot to my schedule. And then we have all of our advent traditions in the church and then we have I always like to have a blue Christmas service, which is, you know, to acknowledge that sometimes we feel blue at the holidays and that's okay. That doesn't dishonor God, it doesn't dishonor Christmas. So I always like to have that service. And then we'll have a Christmas Eve service. And last year I'm rolling my eyes, I know you can't hear- that, but I'm rolling my eyes, because last year Christmas was on a Sunday and so they're all of these. 
18:47
I'm just going to say it self righteous people, self righteous pastors who are like, of course we're going to have church on Christmas and I'm like you know what we're going to do it like. We do it every year, which is we have a Christmas Eve service, because let's go back to Genesis the day starts with the evening before, so a Christmas Eve service is a Christmas service. You know, in the way Genesis works, the day goes from evening to evening. So yeah, but there were so many people last year who were like you're a terrible pastor if you don't have a Christmas day service, and I'm like I don't ever have a Christmas day service. Just because Christmas is on a Sunday, it doesn't change that for me. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
19:30
Well. So that's interesting because that means this year Christmas is on a Monday. So will you have services in the morning and at night, or just at night? Well, on. 

Beth Demme
Host
19:39
Sunday we're only going to have a nighttime service On Sunday. On Sunday we're only going to have a Christmas Eve service, which is a little. It's a little tricky, just at my particular church, because we have opened up our facilities to other congregations to be able to meet there because they didn't have space, and so we normally meet in the morning and then we have a church that meets in the afternoon or a congregation that meets in the afternoon and a congregation that meets at night, and so I've had to tell the one that meets at night hey, sorry, we're going to be using the building then. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
20:08
Would you like to have a morning service? Is it a Christian? Yeah, yeah, yeah, so then would they also be celebrating Christmas? 

Beth Demme
Host
20:14
Eve they may have. They may actually do a Christmas day service instead of they're trying to decide. But yeah, but I just Christmas Eve service is a huge part of my Christmas tradition, so much. So you know, steven and I, our wedding anniversary is December 23rd. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
20:31
Yeah, wow, we got married on the December 23rd. 

Beth Demme
Host
20:33
On our honeymoon. We went to church on Christmas Eve and I wasn't a pastor then. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
20:39
It was just that Did he not like this time of year back then as well, cause, you said, this isn't his favorite time of year now. 

Beth Demme
Host
20:47
Yeah, that is such a great question. We don't know. 
20:52
We've talked about it a lot Okay okay, you know, we got married right after we had both graduated from college and we were pretty young, and so we don't know if he wasn't aware that he did not like the month of December. But throughout our so we've been married, so throughout our 28 years of marriage, it has definitely become very apparent he does not like the month of December, and so I said that to him a few years ago. I'm like I'm so sorry that I wanted to get married in December because it's my favorite time of the year and that it's a time of year you don't like. The reason that he doesn't like December, which we finally unpacked, and we, I mean it was a big enough issue that we had to unpack it. 
21:31
You know what I'm saying, but this is really tragic. But when he was in middle school, his best friend died by suicide and it was in early December and he tucked that away, right. But you know, your body remembers that kind of trauma and grief, and so December would just become this, like you know, he just was a mess. I didn't know why. And then, like I said, we had to unpack it. 
21:59
We literally had to research it to find out when that friend had died, because he said, I wonder, because my brother died in August, and so I know August is generally a month where I'm things, I'm out of sorts, and then I'm like, oh wait, it's August, that's why I'm out of sorts, anyway. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
22:15
So yeah, has getting married, so it hasn't really changed his perspective of December, though, having it as like a joyous time as well being married. 

Beth Demme
Host
22:25
Yeah, I think that once he was able to name it, you know how sometimes you name something and it goes from being really huge to being really tiny. I think that it has been that for him, because the last I don't know three or four years has been better for sure. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
22:39
So I think you say this time of year, but would you say, is Christmas your favorite holiday? 

Beth Demme
Host
22:45
Yeah, it's really Christmas and it's the lead up to Christmas that I really love. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
22:49
It's just like the whole everything goes into it. 

Beth Demme
Host
22:51
Which means sometimes after Christmas is a let down Like New Year's. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
22:55
Yeah, it's like a let down. Yeah, do you do something for New Year's New. 

Beth Demme
Host
22:58
Year's feels like a lot of social pressure. Maybe with that I get a little glimpse of what you feel when you're like I'm not really into the social norms, cause I think I feel that way about New Year's, like why do I have to stay up? Late. Yeah, okay, all right, I'll stay up. Oh, I'm not gonna go out and party and have a great. Oh, I'm such a dud you know, I don't want to. 
23:22
I don't want to. Don't want to put on a sparkly dress and go hang out with people who are being fake. I don't wanna do that. So have you ever? 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
23:30
done it. Oh, I've never done it. I've never had a desire to do any of it. 

Beth Demme
Host
23:35
Yeah, but so the one thing we do on New Year's I will say one of our traditions, and we pick this up somewhere along the way we picked up the idea of you open the door at midnight and you let the old year out and you let the new year in. I think that we picked that up in Russia. Oh, okay, because we were there for New Year's, which New Year's is their big holiday. It's much bigger than Christmas. Also, they celebrate Orthodox Christmas, which is January 6th, not December 25th, so New Year's comes first and, yeah, I think that we picked that up that year, that 2002 to 2003,. That New Year that we were there, the bugs come in. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
24:14
I have a feeling bugs come in as well. 

Beth Demme
Host
24:16
No, no, we don't leave the door open that long, Okay it's just like an out. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
24:20
Yeah, okay. 

Beth Demme
Host
24:21
The years have to move fast. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
24:22
Yeah, okay, come on, they're busy, they're on a schedule, but. 

Beth Demme
Host
24:25
I'm ching yeah, wow, my own sound effects. Did you not know that I came with my own sound effects? 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
24:34
You're just one full package there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, good job, beth. Well, all applauding you. 

Beth Demme
Host
24:45
Steph's got sound effects too. I'm gonna say it Her's her bear. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
24:51
I've been waiting for that one. I don't know why I have that on here, but I was waiting and found it found a use for it Okay. 

Beth Demme
Host
24:57
so we're talking about Thanksgiving and Christmas and New Year's, and I'm talking a lot. What is your favorite holiday? None of those. None of those. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
25:05
No, okay, my favorite holiday is July 4th. 
25:09
Yes, the 4th of July Is it? Oh, I got it right. We might have talked about it before. Yeah, my favorite holiday is the 4th of July because it's like one of those random holidays that is not like a big deal, usually like no one really makes it a big deal, and it's kind of like, yeah, whatever, and people just usually just get together and barbecue, whatever, which is fun. 
25:26
And I like it because when I moved into my house 10 years ago, we just randomly decided to get together and my youngest nephew was like three, I think at the time, and then my middle nephew was a baby and then my niece wasn't born yet and he just was like let's do a parade around your house. 
25:46
And we're like, okay, and then we just like paraded around my house literally, and my mom had seen this like thing about making a tea rocket, which is like taking a tea bag and setting it on fire and then it goes in the air and just like random things that we just like did on this day and then next year we're like we need to get together again and we did, and we've done that for 10 years now and it's like it just became like. I really like it because it's all these like kind of random traditions that we like didn't know we were doing, and then it just became a thing, and then every year we make a video of it, and then every year we watch all the previous videos and then it's just like become like such a thing, so and it's not like a gift giving, holiday and there's no pressure, and I just really like that. 

Beth Demme
Host
26:30
That sounds really nice, actually, cause it is literally just about spending time together, yeah. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
26:35
And doing these like fun things that like like that's not a tradition for people to parade around their house, you know, but my neighbors like watch like they'll like oh look, they're parading. And I have like I play the stars and stripes forever on my like Bluetooth speaker. And you know, I mean it's not a parade without music. Come on, I know you have to. And then we we'd march. 
26:56
And I have like a big, a big American flag that I get out once a year. Then we wave it and we get sparklers. So what a patriotic family you have. It's so random because like it's so yeah, it's, and that's what I think is like. I think it's funny and that's why I like it too. It's like no, no, it's not like something that we really are and like it just is, like it's just fun that I'm just kind of randomly happened. So that's my favorite holiday. But I do like these holidays kind of stacked up and I just like kind of how it feels different than the rest of the time of year. It's just like and I've made it what I want it to be and not what like society tells me it needs to be. 
27:35
So and also randomly about 10 years ago, when I moved back, me and Emily, who was on the podcast, put a link to her episode, we get together at a park called Dorothy B Ovan in Tallahassee and they have a bunch of lights that are super pretty and we get a frosty from and we eat a frosty and we sit and talk in Dorothy B Oven and look at all the lights. So it randomly happened. My mom had these like coupons for for a Wendy's one year. They gave out like you could buy like a pack of like 10 for a dollar for Halloween to give out at Halloween yeah, I think they do that still, yeah. And so she had all of these and she was like, here, get a frosty with Emily. And I was like that's random, we're going to see light. She's like, yeah, but it's hot today and I was like okay, and it was sometimes hot it is. 
28:24
And so I was like okay. So I was like Emily, here's a frosty for my mom. And she's like okay, and we ate them. And then we're like this is so silly that it's winter and we're eating frosties. And then the next year we're like we got to do it again. 

Beth Demme
Host
28:35
We got to do it. It's interesting to think about how traditions get made. Yeah, you know that like it's, oh, we did it, it was fun, let's do it again. Oh, let's do it again. You know, and they, they, when they kind of happen organically like that, but then you really it goes from being just something that happens organically to we're going to choose to do this. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
28:52
And it seems like traditions are usually associated with holidays. Do you think that is like? Can you have a tradition outside of a holiday? 

Beth Demme
Host
28:59
I mean what I think about the traditions in our family. They're about special days, maybe not always a holiday, but because both of my kids are adopted, we celebrate the day that we got to hold them for the first time, because that's when we became a family, so like we have, and we call it by their name, so like we have. Peter day that's the day we held Peter for the first time. Hannah day that's the day we held Hannah for the first time, and we always get together on that day. We usually have something small for them, just, you know, a memento. Sometimes it's, you know, meaningful, sometimes it's not, but we, they get to pick up where we got to dinner or what we eat, and then we watch the videos of the days that we met them Although I will say in recent years they have wanted to see other videos, which is fine. 
29:49
They leave and then Steven and I watch the videos of the days, we, of the times we held them for the first time. So it's still part of our tradition, but it's so. It's a special day, is what I'm saying. It's not just a random like oh, it's the third Tuesday of May, you know. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
30:03
Oh, my gosh, I totally want to do something random on the third Tuesday now, third Tuesday Actually. Now, yeah, now I want to like make traditions for like random stuff, right, random traditions. But I think traditions are things that happen like once a year. That feels like like what a tradition is. It's not something that like happens like usually Fridays is like pizza night. Yeah, Like, is that a tradition or is that just-. 

Beth Demme
Host
30:25
I think it's a routine. Yeah, I think that's a routine not a tradition? 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
30:29
Yeah, I think it may be something that is more like yearly on, like a certain day. 

Beth Demme
Host
30:33
Right. And also I mean there are things that happen in my life every month, like there's a church council meeting actually the second Tuesday of every month, because third Tuesday is trustees. So those are not traditions. I have something that happens once a month, really. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
30:50
I don't really want to talk about it. I mean, it's a very natural thing that most women experience. Do you not want to I don't. That's why I didn't say all, because obviously that would be incorrect. That was probably one of your favorite things about getting cancer is get rid of that. 

Beth Demme
Host
31:07
Listen, even before cancer I had that stuff removed. Really, I had it removed before I had an endometrial ablation, so they burned it out. They burned out the lining so that I wouldn't have periods anymore. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
31:20
Oh, is that like the tube's tide. 

Beth Demme
Host
31:22
Nope, I still had my tubes, I still ovulated, I just didn't slough the lining. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
31:26
So you didn't have your periods Mm-mm, so can anyone have that done? Yeah, Interesting. 

Beth Demme
Host
31:32
So why was the 30,? What did he tell me? I was the 32nd person to have it done in Dalhazza. I don't know why he told me that or why I remember it. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
31:39
So it does affect your ability to have children, obviously you couldn't have a yeah, yeah, yeah. So how is it different than tubes tied? 

Beth Demme
Host
31:47
Or is it Because you can have your tubes tied and still have a period Cause your tubes? That's the, that's the when the egg drops, which is different than the lining of your ears. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
31:55
Why would you have one over the other? 

Beth Demme
Host
31:59
I was having really heavy really painful periods. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
32:02
So why don't more women? Just if that don't want your periods, just do that. 

Beth Demme
Host
32:06
That's a great question. What is it called Endometrial ablation Ablation? 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
32:10
ablate, it Is there what? 

Beth Demme
Host
32:12
how old were you? Let's see it was in 2008. 33? 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
32:16
Oh wow you were young, yeah. 

Beth Demme
Host
32:18
I was 33. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
32:19
Can you have both done that and tubes tied? Yeah, you could, and it would like make sure you never have kids Right For sure. 

Beth Demme
Host
32:26
Right, yeah, yeah. Well, you, if you have an ablation and you're still at risk of getting pregnant, then you would need to be on birth control, because it would be really dangerous. Yeah yeah, so yeah, so you need to do something. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
32:38
But didn't you have all your parts taken out when you had yeah, when I had cancer. 

Beth Demme
Host
32:41
I took it all Cancer. Okay so you had, so had you gone through menopause. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
32:45
No, no, no, so you don't go through menopause but you had stopped having a period as long as you have your ovaries, you will not go through menopause. 

Beth Demme
Host
32:50
Well, I mean until it's time. But you stopped your period, but I stopped my period. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
32:55
There's so many things that like why don't we know this? 

Beth Demme
Host
32:58
Like I've never heard that. I know Well, and you know I went to one doctor. I went to one gynecologist in town and was like this is impairing my ability to enjoy life. Yeah, it is, my periods are so painful and so heavy. And she said there is nothing you can do about it. And so I went to another gynecologist and he said I can make that stop. And I was like please. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
33:20
Why would the other ones Please make that stop. Why would one know when the other not? 

Beth Demme
Host
33:23
He did literally tell me that I was like the 32nd or 33rd person to have it done in Tallahassee, so I guess it was new and the other doctor was like yeah, but now it's not new. Now, it's not new. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
33:33
Now lots of people do it. 

Beth Demme
Host
33:34
I have heard of some women not being of it not being a successful procedure for them because there are some size constraints. I guess there's not a standard uterus size and so if your uterus is too small they can't get the equipment in to be able to do a full ablation, or I guess if it was too big they couldn't ablate at all. I don't know, but it worked for me. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
33:57
Well, you know, what I really have enjoyed about this conversation I'm for sure keeping it in is that you obviously didn't want to talk about periods when I brought it up and then we had such a conversation about periods. I really actually I'm glad we had this conversation. You know what? I would like to have a gynecologist or some kind of like yeah, like a gynecologist on the podcast to talk about these women issues, cause the fact that I've never heard of this it would be nice to have, like when we had the lawyer, the family law lawyer, talking about divorce and just like how to empower women when they get married and like the knowledge it'd be interesting to have like a gynecologist or some kind of women's health specific conversation, cause I feel like there's a lot of that conversation that we're not even aware of as women and we need to be Is that a conversation we're still allowed to have in Florida about women's health. 
34:49
Is that a Drive up to Georgia for that one but-. 

Beth Demme
Host
34:53
We can only have it like what in the first six weeks of the year, or something. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
34:57
Whew, that's a whole other conversation. 

Beth Demme
Host
34:59
We'll add that one to the list too, so do I get like a trophy or like a blue ribbon or something? Because I, because periods came up and I didn't score them out of it. 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
35:08
And you added to the conversation. Beth, I'm very, very proud of you. Yeah, that was pretty great. You know it is something I didn't think we'd get to in a holiday conversation, but I'm really excited we did. And I already know I'm keeping it in because we've talked so much about it that there's no way I can edit it out. 
35:29
So back to our title why do holidays hit different? I think we've answered it For lots of really interesting reasons, for lots of reasons, and I would say, if we haven't answered it or if someone listening has another opinion, I would love to hear what that is. And if you want to share any thoughts on this, you can call us at 850-270-3308 and leave a voicemail. You can also text that number and we could read that. So let us know if you have some insight into, maybe, what we've shared today. A Thing to Beach episode. We end with questions for reflection. These are questions based on today's show that Beth will read and leave a little pause between for you to answer to yourself, or you can find a copy on our website. 

Beth Demme
Host
36:18
Number one does this time of year hit differently for you? Why? Number two do you find comfort in tradition? Why or why not? Number three do you have a favorite holiday? If you do, what is it what makes it special? And number four are you happy with how you celebrate the holidays? Is there something you wish you could change? 

Stephanie Kostopoulos
Host
36:43
This has been the Discovering Our Scars podcast. Thank you for joining us. 

In each episode, we offer you a few prompts to think about how that day's conversation applies to you. You might pause the podcast and answer them right then and there, but if you keep a journal (Steph and Beth both do), feel free to download and print a PDF of the Questions for Reflection we've made just for you: 

​Landscape or Portrait
 

1. Steph was passionate about her commitment to Apple. Have you ever had that kind of passion for a job? How did it work out for you?
2. Have you ever been sexually harassed in the workplace or witnessed it? What was that like for you?
3. Have you been in a job where you made less than the people you supervised or vice versa, where you made more than your supervisor? Did that feel fair? Why or why not?
4. Who are the cheerleaders in your life?

 
Beth Demme (00:03):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars Podcast.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:05):
Where we share personal experiences we can learn from each other. I'm Steph.
 
Beth Demme (00:08):
And I'm Beth.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:09):
I've been in recovery for 17 years and I'm the author of Discovering My Scars, my memoir about what's done in the Darkness eventually comes to light.
 
Beth Demme (00:16):
I'm a lawyer turned pastor who's all about self-awareness and emotional health because I know what it's like to have neither of those things.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:22):
Beth and I have been friends for years, have gone through a recovery program together, and when I wanted to start a podcast, she was the only name that came to mind as co-host.
 
Beth Demme (00:29):
I didn't hesitate to say yes because I've learned a lot from sharing personal experiences with Steph over the years.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:34):
We value honest Conversations. We hope you do too.
 
Beth Demme (00:37):
On today's show, we're going to have an honest conversation titled Discovering My Scars: Chapter Eight.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:42):
Then we'll share a slice of life and the show will close with questions for reflection. We'll invite you to reflect in the conversation in your own life.
 
Beth Demme (00:49):
Okay, so it's time for another installment of your memoir, Discovering My Scars. We're going through it chapter by chapter, listening to it and offering commentary and asking questions.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:00):
So we are on chapter eight titled Apple. What do you think Apple's about? Well, you know, you've already pre-read it. Nevermind. That's probably a spoiler.
 
Beth Demme (01:11):
Yeah. It's not about the apples you eat.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:14):
No, there you go. Yes. It's about the best company in the world, obviously. The most valuable company in the world.
 
Beth Demme (01:22):
And no brainwashing has occurred.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:26):
I don't know why she's laughing right now.
 
Beth Demme (01:27):
I'm just saying.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:28):
I'm not sure.
 
Beth Demme (01:28):
There's one part in this chapter. I'm like, "Okay. Wow. All right." Let's get to it.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:33):
Apply is the best company in the world, the most valuable company. That is just fact and I have not been brainwashed to say that. I love the product, the product loves me, we're a happy family. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.
 
Beth Demme (01:49):
I'm sure Siri will report back that you have said everything correctly.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:52):
All right, so we will play the book and this is the audio from my audiobook version of my book, and then we'll kind of break into it and dig into it a little bit more.
 
Audiobook (02:07):
Chapter Eight: Apple. In the summer of 2007, I walked into the Apple Store in the mall at Millennia in Orlando. I was looking for a new monitor. I had been in this Apple Store once before in 2004, when I came with my friends for our Disney spring break trip. The store was even better than I remembered. It was nice and open with wood fixtures and all the apple products on display. I wanted it all, but I headed to the monitors. Jeff walked up to me wearing a black Apple t-shirt with a clever phrase and asked what I was looking for. We got to talking about how I use my Mac. I shared my passion for video editing and how much the software Final Cut Pro was part of my workflow.
(02:45):
My pure passion blew Jeff away. With so much passion of his own, he said that I needed to work for Apple. That sounded like a dream so of course I applied, oh, and I got the job. A few months before, I had been hired by Walt Disney World to work at the Indiana Jones Epic Stunt Spectacular show. Don't get excited, I didn't do stunts, but I could pack the audience into the theater with perfection. So in my last year of college, I filled all my time with classes and internship, Disney and Apple. I have no idea how I did it all, but I did and enjoyed it. It felt good to have places to be, to have jobs to do, and to have purpose.
(03:25):
When I was working, no one knew about Nicole's Place. No one knew what I had experienced and seen. They just knew I was a good worker. As for my arm, I covered my scars with skin colored patches, special makeup or an armband. One of the positions at Disney was to hold my arms up at my sides and point left and right with my fingers. This fully exposed my scars to everyone walking into the theater. It gave me a lot of anxiety whenever I was assigned this position, but no one ever said anything to me about my scars.
(03:56):
When I graduated college in winter of 2008, I was promoted to a full-time position as a creative at Apple. My job there was not exactly video production, but as a creative, I taught one-to-one customers how to use Final Cut Pro along with other software. It kept my production needs satisfied a little. It felt so good to teach and see someone grow and learn in just an hour. At the time Apple hired me, I was one of just a handful of women employees at my store. That didn't seem strange to me as I was typically one of the only females in my various jobs. Our store leader was a woman, which was nice, but we'd never saw her in the store. Then one day in August 2009, we found out that our store leader had left Apple to work for Microsoft. She had taken half our employees with her. It was shocking and devastating.
(04:44):
I'm very loyal and did not work for Apple for the money, though that was nice and important. I worked for Apple because I believed in the products, the brand and the corporate leadership. It felt like a personal attack when those employees left. I felt like there were enemies among me the whole time and I never knew it.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:02):
Is this the part that you were concerned about with my love of Apple?
 
Beth Demme (05:07):
Yes. This is the part where I just wanted to check in about the level of brainwashing.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:11):
I want to say I currently, obviously I don't work for Apple. I haven't worked for Apple for many, many years. I still love them as much as I did before I worked for them, when I worked for them, and now I still love the products just as much. They're not as innovative as they used to be. I was there at the heyday of the iPhone coming out, the iPad. We had some big product launches, and now they still have good products, but they're more just updating the stuff that they have invented. But I still love it as much and I still would be heartbroken if people left to go to a competitor because I don't understand why you would do that.
 
Beth Demme (05:51):
So was it especially that they went to Microsoft or was it just that they left?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:57):
That they went to Microsoft because Microsoft wanted to directly compete with Apple Stores, so they wanted to create their own stores. Spoiler alert, they failed miserably because they were dumb and they all are gone now, by the way, the Microsoft store, so it had-
 
Beth Demme (06:12):
This Apple Store is in fact still there.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:15):
Oh, yeah. My Apple Store that I worked is still there. All the Apple Stores are still there and there's more Apple stores. Still not one in Tallahassee. Upset about that, yes. I was upset that Microsoft was trying to directly compete, and their answer to that was just to take Apple employees. That is just so unethical to me. It's just like, I'm just going to go steal Apple employees, give them a bunch of money to leave, but then they went under because they didn't have a leg to stand on with their company. When you just try to steal someone's idea without having any ideas of your own, it's never going to be successful because you're just trying to take some of the share off of somebody else, but you're not actually creating anything and bringing any value. You're just trying to take something that someone else has already created.
 
Beth Demme (07:01):
Well, as you say in your book, you're very loyal and you did not work at Apple for the money, though that was nice and important so...
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:09):
They pay well.
 
Beth Demme (07:10):
I'm sure no one listening senses any brainwashing. I'm sure I'm the only one who senses it.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:16):
I'm very loyal to the things I'm loyal to, and that is something that... Is it a corporation? Yes. Are there a lot of corruption corporations? Yes. Are corporations always out for our own good? No.
 
Beth Demme (07:32):
Never.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:32):
Look at our government. No.
 
Beth Demme (07:34):
Never.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:34):
Absolutely. I understand the bigger picture of that, but I am loyal to the things I'm loyal to. I really like Home Depot. I go to Home Depot. That's where my happy place. There's REI, I love REI. There's a lot of brands and stores like that that I am loyal to and really have a connection to, but I would... Well, I probably wouldn't work for Home Depot in the sense of at the store.
 
Beth Demme (07:55):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:56):
I have worked for Home Depot. I have gotten checks from Home Depot. That's nice. And I would possibly work at an REI possibly, but again, my retail experience was Apple and I'm pretty good. One and done. But yeah, that's just how I am in general. So it's not like Apple specific, but I'm like, if you want to call it brainwashed, I'm brainwashed by other companies as well. I call it loyal to quality.
 
Beth Demme (08:22):
Okay. Recently in the United Methodist Church, there's been a lot of people and people are leaving to go to other Methodist denominations or to create new ones, and I am really displeased by it, and so I actually do understand.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:35):
See, oh my gosh, you made me have this whole thing, and then you're like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I get that."
 
Beth Demme (08:41):
I do get that. Yeah. Yeah.
 
Audiobook (08:44):
Soon after these employees left, the position of lead creative became available. This person's role was to lead the creative team of about seven people. I had a passion for the store and team and thought I could do some good. My fellow creatives encouraged me to apply, so I did. I prepared so much for the interview. Once I made up my mind, I knew I was the right person for the job. As our store leader was gone, one of the longtime managers, Sean, became acting store leader. I'd never had a good feeling about Sean. I always felt a little uncomfortable around him, but I didn't know why. I didn't let that affect the job interview however and I rocked it.
(09:21):
One day, Sean called me into the manager's office and told me the good news. I got the job. I would be getting a big pay increase of 10%. I didn't know what to say. 10% was like $2 more an hour than I was making as a creative. Lead creative was completely different responsibilities. I said, "That's it? 10% doesn't sound right. I'm going to bring so much value to this role as I laid out in my business plan during the interview." Sean looked at me very matter of fact and said, "10% is a standard pay increase for this position. I don't have the authority to change that." "Well, who does have the authority? We don't have a store leader, so who's in charge?" I asked. "I could talk to the store leader at the Florida Mall Apple Store if you want," Sean said dryly. "Yes, please. Can I talk to her?" "No, I'll handle it and let you know," Sean said.
(10:08):
After all that, two things saddened me. One, this was the first time I really felt discriminated against for being a woman. Two, Sean came back to me with a puny 15% raise final offer. Since I was already being paid on the low scale for a creative, the raise was still not significant, but I took it because I felt defeated, ashamed, and wanted to be done with a fight.
 
Beth Demme (10:31):
Okay, so I want to stop you there. How much of a pay increase were you expecting? Did you have information about how much to expect?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:39):
I don't remember at the time, but like I said, I was already getting paid on the low... I knew what creatives were getting paid, and of course, Apple was one of those places where you get a small pay increase every year so people that have worked there longer would be getting paid more. But I expected to be getting paid more than any of my creatives and me getting 10% more, there were still creatives getting paid more than me.
 
Beth Demme (11:03):
You were going to supervise people who are making more money than you?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:07):
Yes. Yes.
 
Beth Demme (11:07):
That doesn't [inaudible 00:11:08].
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:08):
Which I understand they had been working there longer, but still that doesn't make sense to me that as a leader of this team, that I would not have a significant... at least be making more than a creative.
 
Beth Demme (11:22):
Yeah. Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:23):
So I didn't have a percentage in mind. Again, I don't remember at the time what it was, but I was definitely... And I knew what the old creative, lead creative, who was a man, I knew what he was making, and again, I don't know what the number was, but it was significantly lower than what he was making.
 
Beth Demme (11:44):
You were offered significantly less than what the man-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:45):
What the man was being paid. Again, he had worked there longer, but still like, in my mind, I'm like, "That doesn't matter. Why can't I... If you were paying this man this much, how could you not have the money to pay me that much?"
 
Beth Demme (11:59):
Yeah, and even if there were creatives on the team who had been there longer, if the store didn't feel like, oh, they're the ones who should be lead creative, it doesn't make sense that the lead creative wouldn't be paid to supervise them. I mean, that doesn't make sense to me either.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:14):
I think it's in the book somewhere. I don't think it's in this chapter, but years later, when we had a new store manager, so every year you would get a small 3% to 4% pay increase. Everyone would. Years later, the store leader looked at how much I was getting paid, which was this 15% more. It had never changed beyond a little bit more each year. He looked at what I was getting paid and he realized how low it was, and he gave me a 25% raise.
 
Beth Demme (12:39):
Oh, wow.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:41):
That shows you how low I was getting from this. That was the highest ever given in the store for just a pay increase. 25% just as a pay increase, which is normally three to four for people. So that should show you that I was making such a little amount for years, and then he finally... And he was a great manager, and we worked really well together, and he saw how good I was doing and he-
 
Beth Demme (13:06):
Right. He could look at it and see that it wasn't equitable, that there was some discrimination that had taken place, gender, age, maybe both. Right?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:15):
Bias. Yeah, lots of things. And the fact that he recognized that, he actually... You really never do that, but he was able to make that happen because he realized the error that had happened years before and there was nothing I could do. You had to have someone like that that would push to make that happen. And this Sean guy obviously didn't push to make that happen and could care less.
 
Beth Demme (13:37):
Is his name really Sean?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:38):
No.
 
Beth Demme (13:39):
No.
 
Audiobook (13:42):
As lead creative, I was the youngest on the leadership team. My responsibilities quickly grew when I went from overseeing just creatives to the whole family room, which was made up of about 50 people. Many days, my responsibilities and the metrics we needed to hit overwhelmed me. I still struggle with self-injury. I still struggle with depression. I still, deep down was scared I would be sent back to Nicole's Place, but I pushed through all those feelings and spent my days laser focused on my job. I didn't focus on a personal life. I focused on being the best lead creative I could be. That started with me developing my own leadership skills. I spent many hours reading about leadership, business and how to develop a team.
(14:26):
I planned an outdoor team building activity where we spent half a day in a park learning to trust and encourage each other. The team went to the opening of Legoland. And for the holidays, we visited Mickey's Very Merry Christmas Party at Magic Kingdom. I did my very best and tried to earn the respect of my team, but as hard as I tried, some team members still saw me as the man. One day on the sales floor, I was standing off to the side with my iPad, checking the schedule to see who needed to take their break. I was an earshot of a group from the family room team. They were talking about this and that, and then I heard my name and I heard them all agree that I was a B word. Previously, my coworker and friend Jason told me he had overheard them, call me this, but it hit much harder hearing it for myself.
(15:13):
It's just a word, but it was used in a mean and hateful way. It punched me right in the gut, and I had a rush of emotions that I didn't know what to do with, but I was at work on the sales floor so I pushed down my emotions and went to help customers. I distracted myself with work during the whole shift. When I got home, I lost it. I was fully crying and couldn't stop. Jason came over and I just lay in the backseat of his car as he drove around and I vented. I felt defeated. He drove me to Sonic and got me a limeade, which is my fave.
(15:47):
On the drive home, I was still lamenting what my team had said about me, then it hit me, "Do kids always like their parents? Do kids say mean things to them? Most people don't like authority and the person they have to report to. Maybe I am a B and maybe that's okay. Maybe a B is someone who stands up for herself, doesn't back down and does the job that needs to be done in the way it needs to be done," I told Jason. I dried my tears. Just a few people had uttered those words about me, not the whole team. Some team members did respect me, and I had bosses who were proud of me. I was not going to let this group of people bring me down. This was the first time I really had to address haters in my life. This experience has served me well, especially with social media and online haters.
 
Beth Demme (16:33):
So the B word is uniquely female.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:36):
Yes.
 
Beth Demme (16:37):
Right?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:38):
It's a female dog.
 
Beth Demme (16:39):
Yeah. So there's an element of this where it's like, well, they never would've called the last lead creative that because-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:46):
Yeah. It was a man.
 
Beth Demme (16:46):
... he was a man. But you did get to a point where you realized, oh, this is just a reaction to authority rather than a reaction to you personally.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:56):
I still think it was a reaction to a female in authority because I was a good leader. I did my job well. Like, this is my job and I'm going to do it and I'm not going to let you slack and I'm going to call you out if you're standing on the sales floor and you're not doing anything because we're here to work. We're here to promote Apple, and if we make some sales, that's awesome. But you standing there, not talking to anybody is not the job that you're here to do. And I wouldn't be ashamed, that's my job, and I believe in what we're doing, so I'm like, want you to believe in it too. The more I think about it's like, well, if a man was doing that, what would you call him?
 
Beth Demme (17:39):
Boss? Leader?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:40):
Yeah, he's being a leader.
 
Beth Demme (17:41):
Effective,
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:42):
Like, "Okay, it's time to do our job." So I do think it was a reaction to having a woman boss, basically, and I was younger than most of them, and they were all men as well. And I think a lot of times men will use that word to hurt a woman and to try to put women in their place, and obviously as a young woman, that is what it did. The first time it happens, that definitely happens. That reaction probably is what happens. But the older I get and the more I get called things and whatever, it's just like, okay. Well, and now I get a lot of that in YouTube comments, and I just delete those and don't even give them the time of day because...
 
Beth Demme (18:30):
Because they don't deserve the time of day.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:31):
No, they don't.
 
Beth Demme (18:32):
They don't deserve any space.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:33):
That's not a constructive conversation.
 
Beth Demme (18:36):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:36):
That is nothing that we need in this world and so...
 
Beth Demme (18:39):
But as a young woman in your first leadership role, I can understand that that would've been... That would've taken me a minute. I would've had to process that for sure, and I would have taken it personally until I processed it to say, "Oh, this is actually a reflection of them, not a reflection of me, because I know that I'm not being that. I'm not being cruel. I'm not being overly aggressive or assertive. I'm just doing my job."
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:09):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (19:09):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:10):
Yeah. And I think as women, as girls, we are taught to be liked and to be nice and to be sweet and don't cause a fuss, all of these things. I think it's something that was squarely in my face that I had never... It was like the opposite of everything the society has told me I'm supposed to be. But then the society also tells you, you can do anything and be your own boss and dah, dah, dah, and then when I'm doing that, then I'm getting this, and so it's just this very something that you don't face until you face. And then you have to figure out, what do I do with this?
 
Audiobook (19:58):
I did have a group of cheerleaders on my team, Jason being one, and Daniel being another. When Daniel was hired, every interaction I had with him truly impressed me. He was so positive. Even if the store was on fire and we were stuck and couldn't get out, he would've stayed positive and figured out how to get us out.
(20:17):
Along with his genuinely amazing attitude, he was also encouraging. He had no time for haters and always put into perspective what a great job I was doing. He was and is my loudest cheerleader. Even more inspiring for me is the fact that he has type 1 diabetes and never lets it slow him down. I've always been in awe of how much this affects his life, but his attitude is still the same. He has to constantly be on top of his health or he could pass out or worse. Still, he lives to the fullest and welcomes each day with open arms and excitement.
(20:49):
Daniel's friendship and kind spirit helped me look inward and see my own struggles. I began to see my anxiety, depression, and self-injury less as burdens and more just as parts of me. I started to wonder, how can I live my best life and not let my mental issues define me?
 
Beth Demme (21:07):
I just wanted to pause there to say that we've recorded two episodes with Daniel.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:11):
Three episodes.
 
Beth Demme (21:12):
Three?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:13):
Remember, you don't like to think of the middle one?
 
Beth Demme (21:15):
No, I liked that one.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:17):
About how he's a conservative and I'm a liberal and can we agree on things or can we have an honest conversation? We had three episodes, one about him having diabetes, one about conservative and liberal, and one about how men think.
 
Beth Demme (21:30):
Yeah. Okay, that's right. So we've had three episodes with Daniel, and we'll put a link to those in the show notes so that you can get to know Daniel better if you haven't had a chance to listen to those yet.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:38):
Yeah. So it is kind of fun. I realized as I listened to that. I was like, "Oh, we had to have him on the podcast because he's the best." And he still is that same, like how I talked about him. He's still that same personality, just really encouraging, a really good guy.
 
Audiobook (21:53):
A few years later, I had another encounter with Sean. After serving as acting store leader, he became the business manager of the store. His job was to get business customers to switch to Macs. He's a very strong-willed salesman, so I guess it was a good role for him. If you're not familiar with the Apple Store, early on, the color of team member shirts varied depending on their job. As lead creative, I wore the same shirt as my team.
(22:15):
One day Sean had a great idea. He thought to bring more awareness to the business team. He would get store leaders to wear business shirts. The business team shirts were pretty different from all the other store shirts. They were collared, made from a nice material and were all black with a little white apple on the left sleeve. I put on my new business shirt and went to work December 1st, 2010.
(22:37):
Every morning before the store opened, we had a store meeting in the back of house. This particular morning, Sean led the morning meeting. I happened to be standing next to him because my desk was near his. He talked about the day and of course, reminded everyone to talk about business. He also reminded the team about the new initiative for leaders to wear business shirts. Then he turned to me, looked right in my face, put his hand on my shoulder, and announced to the whole team, "Stephanie looked so sexy in her new business shirt." Several uncomfortable moments passed. No one knew what to say. I think even Sean realized that what he said was inappropriate. I just don't think he was sure why. Then he took his hand off my shoulder, nudged me in the side and said, "I mean, you always look good, but especially good in a business shirt." Then he looked back at the store employees as they all stared at the two of us. He closed the meeting and the employees filtered out to the sales floor.
(23:34):
In that moment, I went numb. I had never been sexualized in such a public way. Everyone was gone from the back of house. I just stood there feeling ashamed, embarrassed, and used. A few of my friends came up to me afterwards and said Sean's words made them feel uncomfortable and asked how I was. One of my good friends on the business team told me he was going to tell Sean how inappropriate his statement was.
(23:58):
A few days later, Sean did come up to me and say, "I'm sorry if I made you uncomfortable the other day. I didn't mean any harm by it." Another employee told me that if I was that upset about it, I should report it to human resources, HR. I had no experience with sexual harassment in the workplace and what would happen, but I did contact HR. My HR rep was a man who asked me a lot of questions. I answered them as best I could. A month later, nothing happened. I don't know what I wanted to happen. I had been sexually harassed in the workplace, I reported it, and that was it. I followed the process. I think HR told Sean to apologize again, and he did. This time, using lots of legal words. That's all I remember. Sean's desk continued to be right next to mine.
(24:43):
I didn't realize it at the time because this happened before I learned about some sexual abuse I had endured as a child, but this moment was a flashback for me. It was a flashback that I did not understand. It was filled with feelings from my past and thoughts my brain had shut down. I can't say whether this event affected me more than it should have. I don't know if another woman in the same situation would've felt the same as me. But I do know this, what Sean did was wrong. A few years after me, he left Apple and went to work for Microsoft.
 
Beth Demme (25:16):
Okay, that's the end of chapter eight.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:17):
Yup.
 
Beth Demme (25:18):
So I think there are a couple of things to unpack there. One, what a jerk, right? I mean, come on, Sean, do better, be better. I'm going to just take a stab in the dark that Sean's a white man?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:31):
Yes.
 
Beth Demme (25:34):
The way he apologizes like I'm not-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:36):
Such a white man that did something wrong and will never understand.
 
Beth Demme (25:40):
Yeah. I'm not holding you to these were his exact words, but the idea of, "I'm sorry if... "
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:48):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (25:48):
No.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:48):
That's not an apology.
 
Beth Demme (25:49):
No. I'm sorry I said something inappropriate. I made a mistake. Please forgive me.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:56):
Yeah. I understand why this was wrong. I apologize. Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (26:01):
I was wrong to say that.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:02):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (26:03):
Not, you're wrong for being uncomfortable, which is really what that kind of apology says.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:06):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, and again, I'm in my twenties, early twenties or mid-twenties. I didn't know how to handle the situation. All I knew was I felt really uncomfortable, and then HR did nothing.
 
Beth Demme (26:19):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:20):
Do I think it's a fireable offense? No, but the fact that we continued to sit next to each other. I guess for me, looking at it, I think the appropriate thing would've been to transfer him to a different Apple Store because there was three Apple Stores in the area, and I think that would've done something, some action.
 
Beth Demme (26:45):
And to give him some training about why what he did was inappropriate. I think everybody can make a mistake and hopefully everyone can learn. But it doesn't mean that you needed to continue to be subjected to him. And it doesn't mean that he should just be told, "Oh, you should apologize." No, you should understand, and I'm going to say should, you should understand why what you did was wrong. Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:10):
Yeah. And no further action offered to me. No therapy was offered to me, no extra time to... There's nothing offered to me as the victim here.
 
Beth Demme (27:22):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:23):
I'm not saying that they needed to pay me or anything like that. And I'm assuming, especially in a post Me Too world that we're in now, I'm assuming something like this would've been handled differently in today's day and age, and also just this was how many years ago. So I would hope there would be better follow through with something like this and taking serious, especially since everyone in the store heard it. Everyone was subjected to this, everyone. Like I said, people did come up to me and tell me they were uncomfortable with this. My friend on the business team who was a white man, he was like, "That was inappropriate.".
 
Beth Demme (27:57):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:58):
And he was like, "I'll talk to him." But like, that's great. Yes, white men need to talk to white men and have these conversations, a thousand percent, but there needs to be more, and it's not my job to figure out what that is, but you guys figure that out. Be better for women in the workplace. Be better for just people in this world. My hope is that it's happening now. I'm obviously not working there now for hearing these stories, but I'm hoping that that workplaces overall have changed where it's safer for women.
 
Beth Demme (28:32):
Yeah. And at a minimum, learn how to apologize.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:35):
So that was chapter eight of Discovering My Scars, and we will follow that up with chapter nine in a couple episodes.
 
Beth Demme (28:46):
Yeah, stay tuned.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:47):
Stay tuned.
(28:52):
At the end of each episode, we end with questions for reflection. These are questions based on today's show that Beth will read and leave a little pause between for you to answer to yourself, or you can find a PDF on our website.
 
Beth Demme (29:02):
Number one, Steph was passionate about her commitment to Apple. Have you ever had that kind of passion for a job? How did it work out for you? Number two, have you ever been sexually harassed in the workplace or witnessed it? What was that like for you? Number three, have you been in a job where you made less than the people you supervised or vice versa, where you made more than your supervisor? Did that feel fair? Why or why not? And number four, who are the cheerleaders in your life?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:35):
This has been Discovering Our Scars Podcast. Thank you for joining us.

In each episode, we offer you a few prompts to think about how that day's conversation applies to you. You might pause the podcast and answer them right then and there, but if you keep a journal (Steph and Beth both do), feel free to download and print a PDF of the Questions for Reflection we've made just for you: 
Landscape or Portrait

1. Have you ever had to start over? What was that like for you?
2. Reflect on what it would be like to be forced from your home, unwelcome in your country of origin and resettled in a brand new country. What do you imagine are the biggest challenges?
3. Have you ever been involved with a nonprofit? Has hearing Kristin's story inspired you to consider it?
4. Has this conversation made you look at immigrants in a different way?

Beth Demme (00:03):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars podcast.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:05):
Where we share our personal experiences so we can learn from each other.
 
Beth Demme (00:08):
Our mission is to talk about things you might relate to, but that you don't hear being discussed in other places.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:13):
Our hope is that you're encouraged to have honest conversations with people in your own life. I'm Steph.
 
Beth Demme (00:17):
And I'm Beth. On today's show, we're going to have an honest conversation titled Refugees in Our Backyard with Kristin. Hi, Kristin. Welcome.
 
Kristin (00:25):
Thank you for having me. Hey.
 
Beth Demme (00:27):
Introduce yourself to the folks who are listening.
 
Kristin (00:29):
Yes, so my name's Kristin Barnett. I live here in Tallahassee. I've been here back here for about four years. I grew up in DC and then I came here for school. My husband and I live downtown with our two sons. We're also foster parents. Yeah, loving placing roots here.
 
Beth Demme (00:48):
You guys have a nonprofit called Neighborly?
 
Kristin (00:50):
Yes. Our nonprofit organization is called Neighborly, and it's essentially a relationship-based poverty alleviation organization. All that really means is we focus more on people than programs, and we work in various sectors, and so, one of those initiatives is with refugees.
 
Beth Demme (01:06):
Yeah, I'm excited. I realized, or learned, or came to understand, that we have refugees being resettled in Tallahassee through the International Rescue Committee because the church that I serve is walking distance to an apartment complex that seems to be like their initial landing place.
 
Kristin (01:24):
Right.
 
Beth Demme (01:25):
That's where the IRC places them and we were getting ready for a fall festival, and one of my volunteers came in and said, "There's a man outside who said he needs to see the pastor." I was like, "Okay, that's me. Cool, I'll go see him." He was this wonderful guy, Ajmal-
 
Kristin (01:39):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (01:39):
Who you also know, who had literally just come to the US from Afghanistan. His family was in that last push because he had worked with the US Embassy. I got to meet him and his wife and his two sons. Then, about that same time, you and James and I were talking about kind of what Neighborly had going on and how my church could be involved in it. That's when I realized, oh, you have a lot of experience working with refugees through the IRC, yeah?
 
Kristin (02:11):
That's been a more recent partnership, but yeah, and it's informal, but yes, we like to come alongside. The IRC provides those core services. They get federal grants from the government to resettle, and they've resettled almost 400 by the end of this year, which is quite a bit.
 
Beth Demme (02:28):
Just here in Tallahassee?
 
Kristin (02:29):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:30):
Wow.
 
Kristin (02:30):
However, we found that there's a gap because caseworkers can't actually be friends with their clients.
 
Beth Demme (02:38):
Right.
 
Kristin (02:38):
There's professional boundaries. While they do receive housing and educational opportunities, English classes, documents, food stamps, they don't really receive those, what I would call, soft services that are necessary to actually thrive in a new community and so that's what we aim to do, introducing ourselves and just showing them things like, "This is the best playground to take your kids," or, "These are some of the opportunities here in Tallahassee that can be fun for you to learn," or, "This is how you ride the bus," things like that. It's been really fun.
 
Beth Demme (03:14):
Even where and how to buy groceries.
 
Kristin (03:17):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (03:18):
Right. I mean, it's a whole new culture. It's a whole new system. It's a whole new place. Actually, that day, that first day that I met Ajmal, he said, "We don't have anything." I said, "Okay, the church will help you." He said, "No, no, they've given us money. I have a debit card."
 
Kristin (03:35):
Yes.
 
Beth Demme (03:36):
"But I don't know where I can use this."
 
Kristin (03:38):
Ah.
 
Beth Demme (03:38):
It's like, "Oh, okay. We can help with that."
 
Kristin (03:40):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (03:40):
Yeah.
 
Kristin (03:42):
Yeah. A lot of its guidance. What we really try to not do is solely give stuff because we don't want to be in the place of us being the givers and them being the recipients. Again, it's like a partnership. Yeah, just showing people the ropes of how systems work and introducing them to culture. Like you said, the fall festival, maybe that year they didn't know what it was, but then the next year they can come back and know, "Oh, on this week in America, people dress up and kids get candy."
 
Beth Demme (04:09):
Right, right.
 
Kristin (04:09):
It's all foreign. That was really fun for us to show the Afghans specifically their first Halloween.
 
Beth Demme (04:15):
Yeah.
 
Kristin (04:15):
We actually took a couple families to Beard Street. It was very overwhelming, but if anyone knows, listeners hearing, Beard Street's just one of the biggest Halloween parades in Tallahassee.
 
Beth Demme (04:25):
It's like where you want to go for trick or treating.
 
Kristin (04:28):
Yes.
 
Beth Demme (04:28):
Yeah.
 
Kristin (04:28):
It was very idyllic.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:31):
When Beth told me about this, I was so surprised. I had no idea we were a place where refugees were sent, and it was just so cool to hear the story. Is this something where you got involved once they were sent here or you got involved before they were even sent here? How exactly did that work?
 
Kristin (04:46):
Yeah, that's a good question. Personally, I had wanted to work with refugees starting in college. Quite honestly, I think it's because of where I grew up in DC was a very diverse area. I had introduction to the concept of refugees, but most of my friends who were from different countries were not actually refugee status. That's a special classified status. They just came from different parts of the world. When I moved here to Tallahassee, I knew that that was present, but at the time, the numbers were much lower. It was all just had knowledge. That's what I got my master's in studying asylees and migration. When I first moved to Atlanta with my husband, James, Atlanta's one of the largest cities in the US for refugee resettlement.
(05:35):
There's actually a town called Clarkston, and it's the most ethnically diverse square mile in the country.
 
Beth Demme (05:40):
Oh, I had no idea.
 
Kristin (05:40):
It's really neat. You drive around, signs are not in English, they're in literally a hundred different languages. That's where I first started to have relationships. I mentored a family from Eritrea for a little bit, and then I also-
 
Beth Demme (05:53):
I literally could not point to that on a map.
 
Kristin (05:55):
Oh, really?
 
Beth Demme (05:55):
I have no idea what Eritrea is.
 
Kristin (05:56):
It's a small country right next to Ethiopia.
 
Beth Demme (05:59):
Okay, okay.
 
Kristin (06:00):
They're one of the top, not places in the US for resettlement, but top countries in Africa where there's a lot of movement out because of ethnic persecution. It was super eyeopening. You knew I'd go and while I was matched with a family, anytime I went to the apartment, it was like all these different family members just coming out of different rooms. I know Beth has experienced this, but the food is just a really big part of the culture, and so every time you go, you must be hungry, you must be ready to eat goat stew or whatever that they're preparing.
 
Beth Demme (06:39):
Yeah. Even when it's something that is pre-prepared and Kristin's like, "Eat it." I'm like, "I don't want to." She's like, "Just eat a little bit." I'm like, "I don't want..."
 
Kristin (06:52):
But the issue is once you eat it, then they get more.
 
Beth Demme (06:54):
Right.
 
Kristin (06:55):
So you've got to pace yourself.
 
Beth Demme (06:56):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:56):
Oh no.
 
Beth Demme (06:57):
I don't like nuts. All of this is nuts.
 
Kristin (07:01):
A funny thing I noticed is sometimes the tea is traditionally served, but frequently Monster would be served.
 
Beth Demme (07:06):
Oh, really?
 
Kristin (07:06):
It's really random.
 
Beth Demme (07:08):
What?
 
Kristin (07:08):
So I'm like, "I don't don't know if I can drink a Monster now."
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:09):
Oh my gosh.
 
Beth Demme (07:10):
They probably think it's such a treat.
 
Kristin (07:12):
Yeah. Then I started to do more of the educational side. I would teach English to migrants from Latin America in Atlanta for a few years. Then we moved to South Dakota for my husband. He was going to be a pastor at a large church there. What was exciting for me is that was the first time, professionally, I'd always been in the legal field, paralegal, legal assistant. When we moved to South Dakota, that was the first time where James is now, he's still working for an organization, but he's co-opted by them and he's getting paid a salary. He's not raising his funds anymore. That freed me up to quit the legal field because that was never something I was passionate about and actually do what I was passionate about. I worked for an organization that's in the same vein as the IRC, called Lutheran Social Services, and it's the same thing. They're just another resettlement provider. I got to do, it's called English literacy and training for elementary students who are refugees.
(08:16):
It seemed like a dream job. It was just very challenging and difficult because a lot of them had trauma and they're young, and I was the only adult in the room. It was clearly not, we're not going to do tutoring, we're going to just hang out and spend time and kind of talk. It kind of turned into more of a counselor role, which I wasn't really equipped for, but I really enjoyed. Then I started working for the school system, and it's different, I don't think Tallahassee has this, but in South Dakota there's quite a few refugees who are resettled there because of the factories, there's a lot of meat factories and agriculture. You'd get refugees from all over Africa, the Congo, a lot from Asia, and they would actually be placed in classrooms that were solely for them. It was kind of like this micro school within a school.
(09:09):
I was essentially their liaison so it was really fun. Every time the bell rang, I'd go with them from class to class and just be their representative. That was probably the time that I most learned about all the different refugee groups, kind of challenges, hurdles, and they were teenagers and so I kind of got to learn a little bit more because of their age. That kind of prompted me into realizing this is exactly what I want to do in my career. When we did move back to Tallahassee, Neighborly didn't have a program like that. We primarily worked overseas and with people experiencing homelessness. That started my exploration of what are the needs? What does it look like? Beth really was one of the first people that I explored that with because of her church's willingness to partner. That's kind of funny, but also I think freeing, our first project was a failure because we're trying to figure out what could this look like?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:08):
Oh, yeah.
 
Kristin (10:08):
We have our own ideas of, "Oh, this is what I would like potentially if I was a refugee," but I'm not their culture, and so-
 
Beth Demme (10:16):
It was such a good idea.
 
Kristin (10:17):
In theory.
 
Beth Demme (10:18):
It was like a mom's morning out, but not morning out. Moms would come and they would socialize with each other and they would bring their kids and we would-
 
Kristin (10:25):
Have a tea party.
 
Beth Demme (10:26):
Yeah, and she brought all of this lovely food and these beautiful dishes, and we were ready to sit on the floor and just hang out.
 
Kristin (10:33):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (10:33):
And then it was just us.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:36):
You guys are really setting a picture. You guys have this wonderful vision of, "This is what they want, so this is going to be so great," and they're like-
 
Kristin (10:44):
Waiting for them to-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:44):
"We've got stuff to do. Why are we here?"
 
Kristin (10:48):
Yeah. I think what we realized later is, and specifically we had invited Afghan women, and now this is not representative of Afghan women in general, but what I found is while their husbands would go off to work and the women are home, either by themselves or with their children, I just assumed, well, that sounds, it can be a long day, so this could be a fun thing for them to look forward through towards the week, but those women really just prefer to be at home. But they did want community. They did want company, but to do that, you have to enter their home. It wasn't common for them to leave their space-
 
Beth Demme (11:25):
Right.
 
Kristin (11:26):
And specifically walk down, even though it's only a block away, to a church that's not-
 
Beth Demme (11:30):
Not a Christian location, that would be-
 
Kristin (11:32):
Muslim, yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:33):
Yeah.
 
Kristin (11:33):
That's kind of how we pivoted.
 
Beth Demme (11:34):
Even though we are very welcoming.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:37):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (11:37):
Still.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:38):
I can see that though.
 
Beth Demme (11:39):
How do you communicate that? Also, it just wasn't something that they were really looking for. Even though if Kristin and I were refugees, it would 100% be what we were looking for.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:47):
Yes.
 
Beth Demme (11:47):
We would totally want to be.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:50):
I bet it would be. Yes. What different life experiences you guys have had versus them. Yes.
 
Beth Demme (11:54):
Do you have any idea? You mentioned in South Dakota there were factories and things, and that makes sense to me.
 
Kristin (12:00):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (12:00):
Why Tallahassee?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:01):
Tallahassee.
 
Beth Demme (12:02):
I mean, what are they going to do? Work in state government? I don't...
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:05):
Please, please. That would be great.
 
Beth Demme (12:07):
That would be great. I'm wondering what opportunities there are employment wise.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:12):
Yeah.
 
Kristin (12:12):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:13):
Or why.
 
Kristin (12:14):
Yeah, I don't know the origin of it, but in talking with other people, I think Tallahassee is just one of the other cities. It's not the biggest city in Florida that people are resettled to, that would be more down south, Fort Lauderdale, Miami, or Orlando. But there still is industry here being at the capitol, and most refugees are not going to get government jobs. But I think the thought is that it's still a semi large city. I mean, maybe we have quarter of a million at best, and the factories are not in Tallahassee-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:46):
Right.
 
Kristin (12:46):
But there are meat factories and they have to go a little ways up to Georgia. A lot of the industry that refugees tend to work in are the hotels. That could be a reason. There's a lot of tourism here and travel. Quite a few are housekeepers or house cleaners in hotels. It's a really difficult job and does not pay that well, but it's still something. Some of the populations, like Ajmal, they're refugees for different reasons. Afghanistan was a specific event when the Taliban took over and Kabul fell. The majority, technically almost all of the refugees who came there had special skills because they were tied to the US government. All of them knew English at varying levels, a lot at high professional capacity. They worked with a World Bank or the Wall Street Journal or the embassies. In theory, yeah, they could have those and do have those upper level jobs, but then they leave. Most of those folks that I came to become friends with, they left.
 
Beth Demme (13:51):
They haven't stayed in Tallahassee.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:52):
Where did they go?
 
Kristin (13:54):
DC, California, Virginia. Which makes sense, but it's always sad.
 
Beth Demme (14:00):
Yeah. It's always sad to say goodbye, but in some ways that's true of the population of Tallahassee in general, that we seem to be a... I mean the three of us have stayed, but other folks seem to kind of come and go.
 
Kristin (14:12):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:12):
Yeah, that makes sense. Are people being resettled in all states, just like in Florida? Because you said South Dakota is where you were before.
 
Kristin (14:20):
Yes.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:20):
Is that just like every state has the same kind of thing, or are we more here?
 
Kristin (14:25):
Yeah, every state definitely has resettlement cities, the biggest receiver is California, and then I think Minnesota, quite a few. Florida's not even on the top five.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:37):
Interesting. Okay.
 
Beth Demme (14:39):
What's the difference between an immigrant, a migrant, and a refugee?
 
Kristin (14:46):
Yes. There's also other categories too.
 
Beth Demme (14:51):
Oh, cool. Okay.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:51):
Let us know.
 
Beth Demme (14:52):
See, we don't even know what to ask. We're like, "These are all three," but no, there's more.
 
Kristin (14:57):
An immigrant is someone who leaves their home country and moves to another country in hopes of permanency or long-term, primarily for work or better life. Migrants are similar, but there's no permanency guaranteed there. Migrants can also move within their country, and it's always for work. Migrants, you have migrant workers and they're majority in the agriculture or farming sector. Now you can be migrants in other sectors as well. Typically, migrants, it might not be the whole family. It might be the primary breadwinner is becoming a migrant to go to another place and to bring income back to their family, and they're also not guaranteed the same rights as an immigrant might because an immigrant is probably looking for naturalization or other documents.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:50):
A migrant is someone that would come for a season to work and then go back to their country? They're not wanting to stay necessarily.
 
Kristin (15:58):
Correct.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:58):
They're just wanting to do a job and then leave.
 
Kristin (16:00):
Correct.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:01):
Okay.
 
Kristin (16:01):
Or they might stay for a very long time, but they're still classified as a migrant because they're just here for work versus pursuing all the other aspects of what it would mean to move to a new country. If I felt like God was calling us to go to France, we wouldn't be considered migrants there. We'd be considered immigrants. Refugee is a very particular category. Refugees were actually... There's always been refugees. We even talk about how Jesus was a refugee. He's fleeing the country he's born in because there's persecution of babies, sons. But it wasn't protected until 1951 after World War II, primarily because of the Holocaust and Jews being turned away in certain port cities. The UN had a convention, and then they defined it as someone who cannot stay in their home country for fear of persecution based off of five protected groups, so that's race, religion, nationality, ethnicity, and belonging to a particular social group.
(17:10):
We see that examples are the Rohingya, if you're familiar with them, they're Muslims in Myanmar. Muslims are a minority there. A lot of them have had to flee because of their particular religion and so now they're in, Bangladesh is a large one. There's actually a refugee camp in Bangladesh that's almost a million people.
 
Beth Demme (17:30):
Oh, wow.
 
Kristin (17:31):
That then turns into a long-term. There's really not hope for them to go back. But then the chance of refugees being resettled into a third country is about 1% of refugees worldwide. Today there's around 35 million refugees in the world. It does feel kind of daunting. I'm trying to think of other examples of refugees. If anyone's familiar with the Uyghurs in China, they're a minority ethnic group, kind of closer to Russia, and they're being systemically persecuted by the Chinese government. Even some of the Afghans who are here, most of them, it's more they came here because persecution of the Taliban, but because of a government association, so that would be political.
(18:21):
But some of the Afghans I've met are from a group called the Hazaras, and they're a minority, and they also are a different type of Muslim, they're Shia. That's the technical definition. However, there are a lot of refugees that are still called refugees because of war and might not technically be persecution of a specific group, like thinking of Ukraine, although you could argue that that's political. Then you have environmental refugees, but they're specifically called environmental refugees because climate change is not one of the protected categories. They're simply, they have to leave because their area was flooded, like the Libyan disaster that happened this past week when the dams broke. Yeah, it's very specific, but it also grants people a lot of rights and protections so that when they get to the US, I think there can be that misperception of, "They're just another immigrant," or, "How did they get here?"
(19:24):
There's a really long list of screening. They have to go first through the UN, and then there's another, it's called the International Organization for Migration, and then they're screened at all these different points. Then if the US is identified as their country, then the Department of Homeland Security gives them an interview. They're background checked by multiple other intelligence agencies, and then they go through a health screening. I like to say, if you meet a refugee, they're safe. They've been heavily screened and they just really want to be here, and they really want to just feel like they can breathe again.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:06):
How many people would you estimate are involved with getting one person, one refugee, to a country? That sounds like so many stages.
 
Kristin (20:16):
So many, hundreds. When you're in a refugee camp, it's usually protracted. The average refugee is in a camp for 10 to 26 years. So a lot of this.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:26):
Are they born there?
 
Kristin (20:27):
Yeah, a lot of the children are born there, so they might be ethnically Congolese, but they're actually born in Zambia, so then they come here. It's really-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:36):
What is it like? Do you know anything about refugee camps? Have you heard any stories, what it's like being in one?
 
Kristin (20:41):
I have, yeah, and they all are different. I think refugee camps are, of course, great in the sense that there is a place, but almost all refugee camps are plagued by scarcity. There is lack of water and food and health and resources. Some camps are so large and so established that they just do run like cities, so there's schools and hospitals and you can work. But in some refugee camps, there's one called Kakuma in Kenya, it used to be one of the largest, it's still quite large. The Kenyan government allows them to come, but they don't have freedom of movement, so they can't leave that area, so then they can't get jobs. Then you are reliant on those organizations providing services who certainly do so to the best of their abilities, like the World Food program, but they can't have much self-reliance. Of course people get really creative and think of ways to sell things and make money and grow.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:45):
Do they have houses in the refugee camp or is it like, I'm kind of envisioning bunk beds in a big room. Is it like that? Or is it more or a military base almost where they have their own houses, but it's all contained?
 
Kristin (21:59):
Yeah, they're all so different.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:00):
Okay. Yeah.
 
Kristin (22:01):
There are some that how you're describing, a lot of the Syrians would go to Turkey, and so they might make makeshift rooms with dividers in real beds in a huge facility like stadiums. But some of the camps are made from literally just tarpaulin and bamboo. The risk there is fire. They do just look like mini slums in a sense. Some of them are actual, look like tents, like camps, and some of them are shacks. It's not like they're in little houses with-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:36):
Yeah, yeah.
 
Kristin (22:37):
Neighborhoods, and yards.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:39):
Okay.
 
Beth Demme (22:39):
It's not like someone has come in and built-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:41):
Yeah, infrastructure.
 
Beth Demme (22:43):
Built a large housing unit for them. I don't think that it's like that very often. I was in a refugee camp when I went to Israel and Palestine in February, and the refugee "camp" is a town at this point because folks have lived there for so long that they didn't have a choice really, except to build structures and to carve out roads and to make a way. But they're still considered, I think we're at the third generation on that refugee camp, and they're still considered refugees because the UN says they have a right to go back to the place they were evacuated from or that they were forced from by the Israeli government.
(23:27):
They keep their refugee status because otherwise they have to give up their claim on that right to go home. But I also have been working with two guys who recently came here from Africa and they went through Malawi, through Dzaleka.
 
Kristin (23:43):
Okay.
 
Beth Demme (23:44):
They've shown me videos. In fact, there are some on YouTube, I can try to put one in the show notes, but of what Dzaleka is like, and it's like what Kristin's describing where it's like lean-tos. It's like they kind of put things together out of scrap material. The government of Malawi says, "Yes, refugees can be in this limited area that is fenced off and gated off and is meant to hold." When the UN first established it was meant to hold maybe 20,000 people. Now there are many, many times a multiple of that. The UN keeps trying to buy more land so they can have more people there. Finally, Malawi has said, "There's no more land." You've got hundreds of thousands of people in this space, and they're really being provided very minimal services. With these guys, I'm frustrated by their apartment. I'm frustrated by their living conditions. I sort of that to them. I'm frustrated that, for example, they have bees in their apartment. There's a beehive that has taken over.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:49):
Wait, the one that is in Tallahassee?
 
Beth Demme (24:50):
Yeah, there's a swarm of bees.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:53):
What? Inside?
 
Beth Demme (24:53):
Well, the bees are on an exterior wall, but it's their kitchen wall where there's a window. Every time I go to their apartment, when you look in the strainer in the sink, it's filled-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:02):
Wow.
 
Beth Demme (25:03):
With dead bees. I'm like, "Guys, this is not okay. It's not your fault. You have to talk to the apartment complex." They talk to the apartment complex, and the apartment complex says, "Bees are good for the environment, we're not going to do anything about it, and they won't hurt you." I'm like, "Okay, that's not an acceptable answer. You need to talk to them again." Now they don't have hot water. I'm like, "You have to talk to the apartment." "Well, we talked to the apartment and they keep coming out and they're not able to fix it." I'm like, "Then you have to tell your caseworker." "Oh, our caseworker is too busy. We can't bother her." They could tell that I was frustrated about the situation with their apartment. They're like, "Madam." That's what they call me, "Madam, you do not understand where we come from."
 
Kristin (25:40):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (25:41):
I said, "Okay, tell me more." Then they started showing me videos and that they didn't have a stove, they would cook on open fire. One of the things they asked me was, "How do we use this washer?" It was a dishwasher, because they had never seen one before.
 
Kristin (25:55):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (25:56):
I'm frustrated by the limitations of their apartment and the way things are falling down, but they're like-
 
Kristin (26:02):
Comparatively.
 
Beth Demme (26:03):
When we show videos, when they FaceTime with the folks at home, people are like, "Yes, you've made it."
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:09):
"Look at all the bees we have. It's so wonderful."
 
Beth Demme (26:12):
They've learned to coexist with the bees.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:15):
Who are they FaceTiming with? Family in the refugee camp?
 
Beth Demme (26:17):
Family, yeah. Some folks have family who have already been resettled to another part of the United States, and so they stay in contact with them that way.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:28):
You said 1% of people, refugees, get placed or less than 1%?
 
Kristin (26:33):
Correct. Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:35):
How in the world is it decided, like these gentlemen that Beth knows, how did they get placed in the United States? How does that happen?
 
Kristin (26:45):
Yeah, the answer is always very... When you're learning about it and researching about it, even on the UN websites, it's very overarching language, and just a general, "This is how we do the process." The specifics of why they picked this family over the other, even though they all had the same experience, I don't really know. Sometimes it's family connections, so if you already have family resettled in this country, of course they are going to try to reunite family. But still, those families do get separated. We hear many stories of like, "Oh, my sister's here." Sometimes it's even a child. "My child." Yesterday I was visiting with a man from Columbia and his two kids and pregnant girlfriend are still back in Columbia and he's here. But again, he is so happy to be here. I think that might be more of a situation where he now can get a job and provide for them, and that might just be normal. It's always hard to put my own feelings aside because, again, you try to put yourself in people's shoes, but you really cannot do that if you're from a different language and culture and religion.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:01):
Do you know, because obviously you've worked with these types of people for a while. Do you know people that do well that are resettled? Is it singles? Is it families? Is it young children, if they come here when they're younger than they, or does everyone thrive?
 
Kristin (28:17):
Right. Yeah, I was talking about this yesterday. Typically, the families who thrive the most, or the people who thrive the most are two parent households with maybe some children, small families. With a larger families, that can of course be difficult. We see families come with eight, nine, sometimes 10 children or lots of very young children. When that happens, I'm a mom, I know how much childcare costs, so you can't really have two parents working. But when you have two parents who are able to work because their children might be in school, they tend to thrive most and it's all right financial, most of it is. Some of them, there's a family I know from Syria where they have six kids, but two of the children are no longer teenagers, they're early twenties, so now you have four adults in the house who can work. They just have a lot more options and then they are able to find housing that might suit them better and more opportunities. Of course, families who already have a grasp of the English language certainly tend to thrive because there's more opportunities and you can just connect more easily with the culture, kind of become more self resilient, going to the grocery store. Maybe you don't know how this works, but now you can ask yourself.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:43):
You mentioned that some of the refugees that you met have moved on to other places. Is that the goal? Is it the UN or the IRC that places them?
 
Kristin (29:53):
The UN through sometimes other organizations gives the IRC and the other resettlement agencies. There's nine in our country. It just tells them who's coming down the pipeline.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:06):
Basically, the UN decides and then hands it out to the organizations to settle?
 
Kristin (30:10):
Yes, and the organizations do have some leeway in saying, "No, we don't have the capacity for that right now."
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:15):
Okay.
 
Kristin (30:15):
But yeah, typically.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:17):
So the IRC is not just Florida, it's anywhere, they resettle them anywhere.
 
Kristin (30:21):
Correct. The IRC is-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:22):
Just one of the-
 
Kristin (30:23):
International, they're in all-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:25):
Yeah.
 
Kristin (30:25):
Yeah, and then there's eight other.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:27):
Yeah. Once they're placed, like in the apartment that Beth is talking about, is there a amount of time that the IRC pays for their placement there and helps them with things? Because you also mentioned the ideal is to get a job and then to maybe move on. Is there a timeline for all of that that everyone is under?
 
Kristin (30:51):
Yes.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:51):
Okay.
 
Kristin (30:52):
Yeah. Disclaimer, I'm not part of the IRC.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:55):
Yeah.
 
Kristin (30:56):
They are lovely. Some of the processes might've changed and I don't know. But typically as a rule in the US refugees get 90 days of housing covered. That's only three months.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:11):
Yeah.
 
Kristin (31:11):
That's really not a lot. The IRC does have a program now where organizations or church communities can adopt families and then that extends that to six months. But typically, it is much less than a year. Of course the goal is self-sufficiency, but that can be difficult, especially with larger families. I'll go and visit and they do have a large apartment and we just talk, and I found out, wow, their rent is more than my mortgage. That's really hard. That is a major challenge for them to be able to pay those bills. Another thing that people don't often know about is when they come to the US, that plane ride is not free. They have to pay back their flight.
 
Beth Demme (31:54):
I had no idea.
 
Kristin (31:57):
They have a loan from the government, and I don't know the terms of the loan, I think they do have maybe a couple of years to pay it off. But if you think of a family of 10 coming.
 
Beth Demme (32:07):
Wow.
 
Kristin (32:07):
I mean, that's 15,000 minimum.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:09):
That's so odd though, because they're going to pay for the housing for 90 days, but not the plane ride? That's an odd concept.
 
Kristin (32:17):
I think that's more like the international organization.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:23):
Yeah. Wow.
 
Kristin (32:23):
Yeah, it is.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:26):
You get here, you have 90 days to learn the language, learn the culture, figure out something you can do, find a job in that thing-
 
Beth Demme (32:35):
And get all your paperwork done so that you have a social security number and you have all of your-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:40):
Well, yeah. Do they become citizens when they get here? How does that work?
 
Kristin (32:44):
There's generally a path for naturalization with most refugees. Right now, the Afghans are actually, it's pending. There's bills in Congress right now to figure out what's happening. They don't have that same guarantee because technically Afghans are not classified as refugees, they're classified as humanitarian parolees, so just different terms. The hope, I hope, is that, yeah, they also have a pathway for that.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:15):
It's not an automatic thing that you become a citizen. The refugees that Beth met, they're not citizens. It's a process.
 
Kristin (33:23):
No, not yet. But they have the right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:25):
They have the right to be here and to work.
 
Kristin (33:27):
And the right to become citizens.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:29):
Become citizens.
 
Kristin (33:30):
It just takes time.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:31):
Is it years?
 
Kristin (33:32):
I think it is years. Yeah, most of them have a green card.
 
Beth Demme (33:35):
But they can work in the meantime. What they've been, at least my understanding-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:38):
Do they pay taxes and things?
 
Kristin (33:40):
Yes.
 
Beth Demme (33:40):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:40):
Okay.
 
Beth Demme (33:41):
My understanding is once they have a social security number, they can begin to work. They can begin to look for work.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:47):
Oh, so you don't have to be a citizen to have a social security number?
 
Beth Demme (33:49):
No.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:50):
Oh, okay.
 
Beth Demme (33:52):
No. Then after they get the social security number, hopefully the next thing that will happen is that they'll get their green card, but because they have this refugee status, they're allowed to work even before their green card comes through. From green card, they'll want to apply for naturalization, they'll want to apply for citizenship. It's a process. It's a whole process. I can't even imagine moving to another country with a different language and unpacking that process. I mean, the idea of it is overwhelming.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:21):
Who decides what term you are? Do they know the term they are when they're coming to seek something? Or do people that they talk to tell them, "Oh, you're a refugee, you're asylum." Because there's so many terms, how would you know?
 
Kristin (34:35):
Well, you're typically an asylum. You're an asylee if you haven't already been granted permission-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:42):
Yeah, okay.
 
Kristin (34:42):
When you show up, versus you are a refugee if you are still in that second country, so the one that you've fled one, you're in a camp or you're in another country and you're waiting. Then you have something called internally displaced people, IDPs, and that number is even larger. It's twice the amount of refugees. There's about 70 million of those. Those, the only difference is they haven't crossed a border. They might have fear of persecution or sometimes it's again, like the environmental disaster. Moroccans, right now after the earthquake, they're internally displaced because their homes are destroyed and so now they're in a different city, so they also need a lot of those services, but they don't have the refugee status, and so they probably, they're not going to wait for the UN to resettle them somewhere else.
(35:29):
They don't want to either. I think that's another misconception. Most of the refugees, I don't know if I want to say most, quite a few, it's very dynamic, wish they were in their home country. They love it. They want to stay. They did not want that war, that conflict, that persecution to happen. Going back to the Afghans specifically them, one day, they're just in their beautiful home. One of our good friends, they had, essentially, a mansion. They showed us pictures, this huge beautiful compound with multiple vehicles and gardens, and then now they're in America and they are safe and they're grateful, but it's a very different quality of life. That was a struggle for them. Versus, you might have refugees from Asia or from Africa where they were in camps, and so coming here, it's the opposite. Oh, this is a lot nicer, if that makes sense.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:23):
Yeah.
 
Kristin (36:23):
There's all different stories and backgrounds, but I think some of the fear, the prejudice that comes when, not often, but when occasionally we talk about refugees or I share that I work with them, it's just that there's so much naivete because it's like... I've been asked by Christians, "Well, do they have their papers?"
 
Beth Demme (36:46):
Right.
 
Kristin (36:46):
Well, one, yes, and I'll explain the whole process to you, but two, tell me why it matters to you. Does Jesus ask for people's papers before he healed them?
 
Beth Demme (36:57):
Right, yeah.
 
Kristin (36:57):
That's difficult. Another big point is, generally, statistically, refugees actually contribute to the economies of the countries they're in over a long period of time. They are not a strain on resources because they get jobs, they start businesses, and they pay taxes. It's a boon to us. It is a benefit. Another thing that Beth and I do that I think is nowhere a full package, but just we're trying to always think, how are ways we can engage and interact and just show that they are loved and also provide things that are tangible needs that will help them grow. That was really fun for Beth and I. We applied to a grant together with the Methodist conference, am I saying that right?
 
Beth Demme (37:40):
Yeah. It was the United Methodist Committee on Relief, UMCOR.
 
Kristin (37:44):
Yes.
 
Beth Demme (37:44):
But we applied for our grant and got it to provide bicycles.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:48):
Oh yeah, I remember you telling me about that. That's awesome.
 
Beth Demme (37:51):
Then my church was so excited about it. They're like, "Okay, we used all the grant money, but let's keep doing it."
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:55):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (37:55):
So we're going to keep doing it because, yes, it's good to be able to use the bus, but our buses are equipped for bicycle riders and so it can really make a difference in your ability to have transportation-
 
Kristin (38:09):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (38:09):
Just to have access to a bicycle.
 
Kristin (38:11):
The hope is that we're helping a tangible need, and it's typically for transportation to a job, but for him specifically, it's English classes. He explained, "This is how long it takes me to get there on the bus." Of course, it costs money. So being able to have a bike does give him that freedom. I think it's always exciting to meet needs where he is actively trying to learn English and is committed and going to those classes four days a week and it's not easy.
 
Beth Demme (38:43):
Their English classes are four days a week, four hours a day. They do English classes 16 hours a week, and they can pick their classes to be either in the morning or at night, depending on when they work, so that it doesn't impair their ability to get a job, which I think is great.
 
Kristin (39:01):
Yeah, it's a really awesome program.
 
Beth Demme (39:07):
Kristin, thank you so much for taking the time to be here with us and to talk to us about the refugees that are living here in Tallahassee and expanding our understanding of that whole experience and everything that goes into it. We always like to ask our guests a question.
 
Kristin (39:24):
Okay.
 
Beth Demme (39:25):
The question is, what book, TV show, or podcast are you excited about right now?
 
Kristin (39:31):
I typically lean towards, when I'm reading, I really love fiction. I will just go through fiction like fast food, and my favorites are thrillers or dystopian type of novel. That's what I've been getting into at the library. However, I am now trying to implement, from my brain, a way to every fifth book or so, read something that is a little bit more challenging, nonfiction, or that helps my spiritual development. Right now, I am slowly reading through, and it's funny, I say slowly, a book by John Mark Comer called The Relentless Pursuit of Hurry. It's really about the title, how America's culture is just constantly busy and hurrying from one thing to the next, and how that is so unhealthy, and so how do you find kind of peace in that chaos?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:19):
Are you reading it fast or slow?
 
Kristin (40:21):
I'm reading it very slow.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:22):
Okay. That seems like you should based on the title.
 
Kristin (40:24):
I guess.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:26):
Well, we'll have to look that up. We'll put a link to that. Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (40:29):
Let everybody know where can people find out more about Neighborly and about the work that you're involved in?
 
Kristin (40:33):
Yeah. Our website provides all the information and ways for people to volunteer. It's called thatsneighborly.org, or you can just Google Neighborly nonprofit. Specifically with refugees, we have a multitude of ways people can get involved. Medical advocacy is a big thing, so helping folks make, get to, and do follow-ups with doctor's appointments, dentists, things like that. You need to get background checked. We also do English practice one-on-one and just, yeah, throughout the year, I'd say getting in contact and figuring out what your own passions are. It's been fun to take refugees trick or treating or to introduce them to holidays. Again, a lot of it's holistic, so it's like if you have an idea, we can pair you up with a family and do it.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:24):
At the end of each episode, we end with questions for reflection. These are questions based on today's show that Beth will read and leave a little pause between for you to answer to yourself, or you can find a PDF on our website.
 
Beth Demme (41:33):
Number one, have you ever had to start over? What was that like for you? Number two, reflect on what it would be like to be forced from your home, unwelcome in your country of origin and resettled in a brand new country. What do you imagine are the biggest challenges? Number three, have you ever been involved with a nonprofit? Has hearing Kristin's story inspired you to consider it? Number four, has this conversation made you look at immigrants in a different way?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (42:04):
This has been the Discovering Our Scars podcast. Thank you for joining us.

Buy the Discovering My Scars book here
​

​In each episode, we offer you a few prompts to think about how that day's conversation applies to you. You might pause the podcast and answer them right then and there, but if you keep a journal (Steph and Beth both do), feel free to download and print a PDF of the Questions for Reflection we've made just for you: 
 
Landscape or Portrait
 

1. What was your take on the situation when Steph had the stitches removed? Have you ever had a similar situation?
2. When Steph returned from the mental hospital, UCF gave her a checklist of things she was required to do that weren’t really for her benefit. Have you ever felt like you were punished for doing the right thing?
3. Have you ever received an uncomfortable Facebook friend request? What did you do?
4. Do you have any experience with hazing? What are your thoughts on it?

Beth Demme (00:03):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars Podcast.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:06):
Where we share personal experiences so we can learn from each other. I'm Steph.
 
Beth Demme (00:09):
And I'm Beth.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:09):
I've been in recovery for 17 years and am the author of Discovering My Scars, my memoir about what's done in the darkness eventually comes to light.
 
Beth Demme (00:16):
I'm a lawyer turned pastor who's all about self-awareness and emotional health, because I know what it's like to have neither of those things.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:23):
Beth and I have been friends for years, have gone through a recovery program together. When I wanted to start a podcast, she was the only name that came to mind as co-host.
 
Beth Demme (00:30):
I didn't hesitate to say yes because I've learned a lot from sharing personal experiences with Steph over the years.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:35):
We value honest conversations and we hope you do too.
 
Beth Demme (00:38):
On today's show, we're going to have an honest conversation titled Discovering My Scars, Chapter Seven.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:43):
Then we'll share a slice of life and the show will close with Questions for Reflection, where we'll invite you to reflect on the conversation in your own life. All right, Beth, we're back.
 
Beth Demme (00:51):
We're back. We're going to do another chapter of your memoir.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:53):
Yes. Chapter seven, but we will basically play the book and we'll pause and talk a little bit during it and then give some recap and extra things about it.
 
Beth Demme (01:05):
Yes. I will just say that just before this, you were released from the mental hospital. We're diving in at a point where you've just gotten out of the mental hospital.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:16):
Yes. If you don't know what we're talking about, listen to the previous episodes first, or buy my book, get the audiobook. There's a lot of options. We will put links to those in the description as well. Part two, abuse. Chapter seven, aftermath. I was held in the system for 74 hours. That's 50 hours more than if I had been Baker Acted, involuntarily admitted. I trusted the people I thought were there to protect and help me. My parents raised me to look at police officers and medical professionals with respect.
(01:51):
This experience taught me a hard life lesson. Life isn't as simple as trust the safe people. The experience hardened me and made me fearful of new people, especially people meant to help me. I was fearful that they would judge me unfairly and make me feel like the crazy one. Because of this, I didn't see another doctor for five years, except for when I got my stitches removed right after my stay at Nicole's place. I had Googled a doctor that was covered by my insurance near UCF.
(02:23):
I hadn't bothered to get a local doctor yet as I had only lived in Orlando a few months. I found one right down the road and made an appointment to get my stitches removed. I walked in to the tiny white room with the standard cotton balls and tongue depressors on the counter and sat on the medical table. I waited. An older male doctor walked into the room, looked a little perturbed and asked to see the stitches. I showed him my arm. His eyes widened a little. Then he looked into my face.
(02:54):
I looked back and saw disdain, frustration, and apathy. He unhappily went to get his tools, then came back, and without a word, started removing the stitches. I was sitting up with my arm in my lap. His pulling and prodding my arm felt unusual. It upset me. The sensation made me lightheaded. I told him I didn't feel good. He continued and said, "Well, what do you expect? It's a lot of stitches." He must have finally looked at my face and saw it turning pale, so he told me to lie down on the table.
(03:26):
This helped, and he finished his task. He never asked me what happened. I can only imagine he looked at my arm as a failed suicide attempt. His pessimistic attitude made me feel like I was wasting the time he could be using to see real patients.
 
Beth Demme (03:41):
Okay. I want to stop you there because this really bothers me. Let's say he did think that it had been a failed suicide attempt. Why does that not engender more compassion? Why isn't he like, "Oh my gosh, she was in a really bad place. I will not be a jerk to her." Yeah, I don't get it.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:02):
Believe me, I don't get it either, but I can completely remember sitting in that room and just feeling just like I was going to be sick, because it's such an unnatural feeling. If you've never had stitches...
 
Beth Demme (04:15):
I haven't. I have never had stitches. Well, have I had stitches?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:17):
Well, you might've had for your...
 
Beth Demme (04:19):
I mean, I've had surgeries, so I guess I've had some stitches.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:22):
But you were probably sedated in a way that it's not something that you... And having them removed. A lot of times stitches are dissolvable too, but it's just the weirdest sensation and it's very off-putting and not natural. It's just like, yeah, it's very... I mean, it really does feel like if you ever sewed anything, my mom taught me to sew when I was a kid, it feels like you are that fabric. If you can visualize stitches on fabric and poking and prodding, and then when you use a seam ripper or a thing to remove the stitches, it's such a weird sensation on that. But then that on your skin, it's like whoa.
 
Beth Demme (05:10):
You shouldn't be feeling things moving through your skin in that way, moving through your body in that way. This has happened to me a few times in the book where I wanted to try to find a way to assign a different intent to the person who's being awful or even try to find a way to assign positive intent. The best I could come up with here was that he looked at the stitches and thought, whoever did that did a really bad job. And that it was not about you.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:39):
He was annoyed at the...
 
Beth Demme (05:39):
It was about the stitches. I don't think that's probably what happened. I think I would trust your intuition about the vibes he was putting, but that was the best I could come up with.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:50):
Well, I mean, that's an interesting take actually, because I do know from a couple of vet techs that I know, I know that stitches can be tricky to remove. There's different types of stitches. There's different... I can't even remember what they called them.
 
Beth Demme (06:05):
Patterns and things that they can do.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:06):
Different patterns and different widths also. The smaller widths can be harder to remove, and also how it heals. Sometimes it can be crusty and stuff. I mean, that's not a crazy thought. Even though if that was his thought, that doesn't excuse his behavior. He could have even said something like, "Oh no, these are a little challenging or something, but I'll get them. It might hurt a little bit more," even if it was done badly, which it probably was, I don't know.
(06:46):
And then right after I got the stitches, they put hydrogen peroxide at the mental hospital, which I later found out loosened stitches. It could have then ruined the integrity of them. That could be accurate that he was like... Or he felt annoyed that he's a doctor and he has to remove stitches. That could also be a thing where it's like, ugh, this is beneath me to have to remove stitches. I don't know. I don't know if that's something that doctors typically do or they have someone else do it. I don't know.
 
Beth Demme (07:17):
I'm remembering now a time I had stitches, and you're right, the doctor didn't want to remove them. They had either a medical assistant or a nurse come in and do it, because I guess it was like the way it gets billed or whatever, it's not worth their time to do it.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:33):
Or beneath them kind of feeling.
 
Beth Demme (07:35):
You're right, that could have been it too.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:38):
In that point, he might not have been even caring about me or what it was. He might've just been annoyed that it was beneath him. It wasn't even like he didn't care about me or what happened. He just wanted to get this done. But I had booked a doctor's appointment maybe and he had to do it or something. I don't know.
 
Beth Demme (07:56):
Right, right. But still, it could have been reflected in his bedside manner, but I also think it's good to remember that when we're interacting with people, the tendency is I'm going to think it's about me. Especially if someone's rude to me, I'm going to be like, oh, what did I do? Maybe it's about something completely different.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:14):
Maybe it's about him and his ego.
 
Beth Demme (08:16):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:17):
Probably. Probably.
 
Beth Demme (08:18):
But still, he should have dug into his training there. I'm sure they train doctors in bedside manner. I'm sure they do.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:27):
Yes. Yes.
 
Beth Demme (08:28):
Even though so often they don't seem to reflect that training in our interactions.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:32):
I'm confident. It would be interesting to hear a doctor's or nurse perspective on that section to see if they have different insight, because I never really actually thought more of it, like you were saying. Of course, it shouldn't be my responsibility to think, oh, are they upset with me? It's probably not me. It's probably they don't want to have to do stitches today. I'm so sorry. For me to have to like soothe them, but that's an interesting perspective. Thank you for making me think through that.
 
Beth Demme (09:06):
Yeah. All right, let's keep going.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:09):
In the days and weeks following my release from Nicole's place, I try to get back to normal. I returned to my classes, although I missed a test in my film class and my teacher wouldn't let me make it up.
 
Beth Demme (09:20):
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, stop. Why would a teacher not let you make up a test when you had a medical reason why you were unavailable?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:30):
Your guess is as good as mine.
 
Beth Demme (09:32):
I need to be able to assign positive intent to these terrible people.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:36):
This happened on a Sunday and I was released on a Wednesday, so I went back to class on a Thursday. Again, it's been 17 years, so I can't say I remember exactly everything that happened. And also, as much as I was going through life and doing everything I needed to do, I was a hot mess without even realizing how much I was. That was a traumatic situation. I don't know exactly what I told my teachers. I probably had some kind of documentation, but also the doctors were treating me like trash and I did this to myself.
(10:10):
What do you expect my teachers to be doing as well? They probably were in the same like, ugh, another kid getting drunk and having something happen. They're probably tired of college kids come up with excuses being in the hospital because they partied too hard. It's probably one of those things, and I didn't want to get into the mental hospital of it all. I don't know exactly what was presented.
 
Beth Demme (10:35):
Well, keep going because this is a little bit later in the chapter, it's just about to come up, but the school knew what happened.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:40):
Yes. They knew.
 
Beth Demme (10:43):
I would hope that there's communication between the school and the professors, but maybe there's not.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:51):
But also to be fair, it was so fresh that I don't know if the test was on a Wednesday and then I had class the Thursday, or maybe the test was on a Tuesday. It was probably a Tuesday, Thursday class, so probably the test was a Tuesday. I got there Thursday and I told them. I don't even remember. Maybe I was able to make it up. What I do remember about this film class, first of all, I didn't want to take it, but that was the only thing that was available. I got a C in that class and I always got As, As or Bs, in everything.
 
Beth Demme (11:24):
You probably got a C because you missed a test.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:26):
Well, yes. Oh, 100%. I went through all of this trauma. And also, the film class was really hard because we had to watch these really graphic films. Those weren't the kind of films I ever watched. That wasn't my jam. There was abuse happening in movies and things that I'm like, this was traumatizing for me to just experience. I get film, okay, but it wasn't for me. My major was TV production and I just thought I'd minor in film. But then after I got a C in that class and just hated it, I changed my minor to religion.
 
Beth Demme (12:00):
Interesting. I never knew that.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:02):
I worked at a church, so job well done, used that minor. I also did audio and production at the church, so I also used my TV and production degree. I used both of my degrees working at a church. Check, check. I went back to my weekly Bible study and shared a surface level version of what happened, and I attended sorority events again. I felt shame for what I had done and put my family, friends, and roommates through. I never really talked about the nightmare Nicole's place was or showed anyone the writing I did there.
(12:36):
A few days after my release, the bill for my stay arrived in the mail. It led with, "Thank you for choosing Florida Hospital for your healthcare needs." Thank you, I thought. Really? Like I had a choice. The grand total came to $11,970.78 for the four days. Of course, this was the price they billed my insurance, but the bill made me furious to see how much money they charged and the lack of any helpful treatment showed me that it's a broken system. In the end, my parents' copay was about $600.
(13:10):
To this day, I'm upset they paid it. Along the same lines, UCF sent a note to my parents stating, "Stephanie was transported to the hospital after engaging in harmful behavior. Students need to assume responsibility for their actions. However, parents play a very important role in addressing consequences for their student's behavior." It was just an extra punch in the gut. After reading it, I thought, I guess UCF didn't get the memo that my parents were talking with me through the whole ordeal and that my mom spent time with me afterwards.
(13:42):
But if the kid already feels bad about herself, make sure the parents do too. I also received a letter from UCF eight days after I got back. The letter stated that my university records would be put on hold if I did not go and speak with the director of student conduct. Even without the threat, I would've complied. I did go. I did everything I was asked and told to do. I went to UCF mandatory counseling, but all the help I got was checking boxes off a list for the school. The final embarrassment and shame for me was having to go to required roommate mediation.
(14:17):
I don't remember much about it, but I remember AJ's face. She hated every minute of it and hated me. I think this goes without saying, but this did not help my relationship with AJ or Didi. The checklist UCF had me go through did nothing to help me work on my feelings, fear, and shock from those 74 hours. The more people treated me like a mental patient, the more I started to feel like one. And I hated myself for what I did to myself as I was always reminded. I needed real help, but I was too scared to ask for it. I was so afraid I would be sent back to Nicole's place.
 
Beth Demme (14:56):
Okay, I want to pause there. Remind us who AJ and Didi are.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:01):
AJ was the roommate that ate my food.
 
Beth Demme (15:04):
Oh, sorry. That's what caused all this.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:06):
That caused all this. Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (15:08):
That's sarcastic on my part. I know that's not what.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:09):
Yeah, and then Didi was the other roommate that was... She was just annoyed that she had to be involved with it. She wasn't super involved with the initial thing. And then Megan was my roommate that I did get along with and came to visit me in the mental hospital. Megan was fine with it. She understood this is what we have to do. She wasn't mad at me, but the other two were not obviously very happy.
 
Beth Demme (15:32):
It's interesting how the school created a checklist... So much about this is interesting. It's interesting to me that the school created a checklist that didn't actually help you, but was maybe just some sort of...
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:45):
A legal sort. I think a legal thing.
 
Beth Demme (15:46):
Some sort of CYA on their part. It's interesting to understand the bill, the $12,000, $11,970.78, which I'm going to round to 12,000, and how that money got paid into the system, even though zero results. In fact, adverse results were created by what they billed you for. I mean, I bet that happens all the time in different ways in the medical system. We think about all these ways to reform the system and reform insurance. Maybe that's the root issue. Rather than who's paying for it, maybe the root issue is what we're paying for.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:33):
It's very complicated because I didn't choose to go there, yet they said I did because the police officer asked me, "Can I take you somewhere to help," and I said yes. All in that little tiny interaction from a couple chapters ago, that little interaction cost me $11,000. Because if I hadn't, they could have only sent me there legally if I had said no, which I had no understanding of what I was saying yes to also, by the way, which is a whole nother thing.
(17:06):
But if I had said no, their only legal action would've been to Baker Act me if they truly thought I was a harm to myself or others. If they thought I was going to continue to engage in self-injury, and I don't know how they would have been able to qualify it, I don't know what the process is, but still, they would've only been able to keep me 24 hours, which would've been way less of a bill. There was $11,000 bill that I never agreed to, that I never consented to. When you really think about that, how is that even possible?
(17:41):
Really, truly, the officer should have said, "I want to take you to a place called Central Receiving Center where we take all mental health patients in town and they will assess you and they will do this. It will be a price tag of probably $12,000 to your insurance company." If all of that had been laid out to me, I'd been like no. What?
 
Beth Demme (17:59):
Right. I don't need that.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:00):
No, not at all. And then he would say, "Well, I can legally Baker Act you. I'm going to get a lawyer. I'm going to get a judge involved." Okay, go for it. Do it. And also, I wonder if I was legally Baker Acted, would I pay insurance? If it's a legal thing, would the state have to pay for it or something? I don't know.
 
Beth Demme (18:23):
Yeah, I think your insurance would still have to pay.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:24):
I don't know. That's an interesting place too. Because I chose to go, I had to pay for it. When you're in jail, you don't pay for being in jail.
 
Beth Demme (18:39):
Right. If you need medical care while you're incarcerated, I would assume your health insurance probably gets canceled when you get incarcerated.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:46):
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. It's just very interesting outcomes that could be based on me simply saying yes to something that I had no idea I was saying yes to, which doesn't even seem like it could legally be binding, but it was.
 
Beth Demme (19:00):
Right. And also, this happens all the time in the medical system because when's the last time that my doctor said, "You need to do this," and I said, "Uh, how much is that going to cost?'
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:13):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (19:14):
I don't ask that question because when my doctor says I need it, I go, "Okay."
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:20):
I mean, obviously he wouldn't have sat there and known the price and all of that. But to me, for me to consent to something, I really think I should have had to sign a form. I should have been told where I was being sent. But the fact that that was legally binding, him say, "Can I take you to a place that can help," and I said yes without having any clue where it was, you have to say Miranda Rights when you are arresting someone. When you pick up someone with a mental health issue, you don't have to tell them at all where they're going, you just have to have them say yes?
 
Beth Demme (19:50):
Right. And once you said yes, that was more binding than your request to leave.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:55):
Yeah. Once I was in, I couldn't leave.
 
Beth Demme (19:58):
You were giving up your right then to change your mind or to get more information and change your mind. I mean, that's really odd.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:07):
I mean, it's really strange the more I think about it. I mean, it's always been infuriating, but the more it's like, how can they just do that? I understand if they Baker Acted me and they got a judge to sign off on this, whatever, but that they didn't have to have anything more than me just say yes to some bogus question.
 
Beth Demme (20:29):
I don't think a judge has to sign off on a Baker Act provision.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:32):
There is a judge involved. I looked it up. It's been a while now, but I did look it up and it was involved to be Baker Acted. I was like, they would not have gotten this covered. When I read it, I was like, there was no grounds for this.
 
Beth Demme (20:43):
There's definitely something the police can do for a 24-hour mental health hold.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:48):
It's the Baker Act.
 
Beth Demme (20:51):
For that, I don't think they have to get a judge involved. Because it's come up recently in my pastoral ministry, I have become aware that sometimes people will use the Baker Act against each other. I have people who've been Baker Act-ing each other, and that's very sad.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:10):
But you're saying an individual Baker Acted somebody and didn't have a judge involved? They just said, "I want to Baker Act them."
 
Beth Demme (21:16):
They called the police and said, "This is the behavior that I see. I'm worried that they're a danger to themselves or others." The police came and said, "We did an assessment. We agree," and the person was taken away for 24 hours. Not to jail, but to behavioral health.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:31):
Yes. Maybe the police officers can just Baker Act someone. I don't know. Or maybe it's such a simple process. There is a judge involved, but it's a very automated process in some capacity. I'd have to look it up again. But anyways, if I had legally been sent, it would've only been 24 hours. It would not have been $12,000.
 
Beth Demme (21:56):
Right. And the fact that you were able to say yes, but then you couldn't say no is really upsetting.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:01):
Is a problem. One day I took a walk in the woods right outside my dorm room. It had beautiful paths of undeveloped land with amazing trees and natural life. Instantly I fell in love and didn't feel so afraid and alone anymore. I felt close to God, surrounded by his creations. With his help, I processed some of my feelings through frequent trips to the woods. Police Officer Mowen Facebook friended me when I left Nicole's place. He wanted a checkup on me and see how I was. I was friendly, but in the back of my mind, I always wondered, did you really think I was a danger to myself or others?
(22:40):
Did you think I was suicidal? Did you know anything about CRC? And did you honestly think I would get the right treatment? After seven years of being too afraid to ask the questions, I finally did. I know I'm getting a little ahead of the story, but this is what he said. To answer your questions, honestly, at the time, I did what I was required to do in the situation that was presented. I had a very basic explanation of what CRC was from a class I had attended. As far as treatment, I cannot speak to that as I never got that far in the process.
(23:14):
I was directed that if a person did or said certain things, this was the process we followed. I know this is not a good answer and doesn't even begin to explain the why of what occurred. I can imagine it was an ordeal for you and caused a major disruption in your life, and I'm sorry if it was the wrong decision in your case. But my hands were tied regarding how to handle the situation. I have remained in contact with you mainly because I wanted to be there for you as a resource if you needed anything. This was helpful closure for me.
 
Beth Demme (23:45):
I can understand why that was helpful closure for you. I can understand why having him acknowledge that he was following a procedure and that in hindsight he can see that he didn't fully understand what was going to happen. I can also understand where because he didn't fully understand what was going to happen, he couldn't fully explain to you what was going to happen because he didn't know.
(24:07):
It sounds like he was a genuinely caring person and that's why he followed up with you. And that he probably used your experience in subsequent interactions. When you know better, do better.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:22):
Yeah, I hope so. I will say it was a little weird to me that he Facebook friended me. He was probably in his 20s, and I was 20, 21. 20, I think, at the time. I did have an element of feeling like he was interested in more than just my well-being.
 
Beth Demme (24:43):
Oh, well, then okay, that's weird.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:44):
There was a feeling of that. He never did anything uncomfortable or anything, but there was a feeling of we are generally close in age.
 
Beth Demme (24:52):
You're not friends, so why be friends?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:55):
We're not friends. I do think there's an element to probably men specifically thinking if they help a woman in some way and show that they're caring, that that might mean something to that woman in a deeper way. I did kind of get a little bit of a vibe, but it was such a traumatic event that I didn't even super process any of that. He never did anything inappropriate, but just in the sense of that action alone felt inappropriate.
 
Beth Demme (25:30):
I will say even, I mean, back then Facebook was different. Even today, I will meet someone at an event or something and I'll get a Facebook friend request from them. Now I'm at a point where I go, no, we're not actually friends. I don't need to do that. But it may have been also just an aspect of social media at that time.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:49):
It wasn't. It was when Facebook was your friends. This was early Facebook. This was a year after Facebook came out. It was 2006 and Facebook came out in '05, like '04 or '05. This was fresh Facebook. This is when you had to have a college email address to join. Old people weren't on. It was just for young kids and friends. It was high school friends to keep up with their friends. That's what I mean is it felt a little like we're not friends, but you entered my life in this traumatic way and you seem to want...
(26:27):
He actually did help me. Probably he's in here, but he did help me with the roommate. I think he did talk to her or something. But he did things that, I don't know, someone that's more interested than just being helpful kind of thing. I do remember always having that in the back of my head, like, oh, there's more there. I never pursued anything or wanted to pursue anything. Of course, that was really weird. But I am glad that I did have that closure with him. Hopefully he learned from that experience.
(27:02):
When I began attending UCF, I decided to go through sorority rush week. I never, and I mean never wanted to be a sorority girl growing up. My mom was one when she was in college and loved it. She said it was like Girl Scouts, but better. She didn't ask or encourage me to join, but I knew it would make her happy if I was a member of her sorority. So, I went through the process and got accepted. All that happened before the 74 hours. I didn't tell anyone in the sorority about Nicole's place.
(27:31):
One month after my release from that facility, it was time to be initiated into the sorority. My mom came down for the November ceremony. I didn't know what to expect. Mom said it was no big deal and that I would be fine. Well, it would prove to be the stereotype of a sorority initiation. In the two-story sorority house, they blindfolded us and made us find our way to the rooms on the second floor. Then they left us three to a room with the lights out. There I was sitting on the floor facing a shut window with a desk in front of it.
(28:03):
They left us for hours, nothing to do, and strange noises were coming from the hallway. We were told to sit on the floor, stay, and shut up. As I sat for hours, I noticed a shirt on the desk in front of me. It was white with little black skulls printed in a pattern. Two other people sat behind me in the room, but I couldn't see them so I felt all alone. As I stared at the little black skulls, my mind and body reacted in pain and fear, but not because of the stupid sorority game. It was because I felt like I was back in the place where I was held captive for four days.
(28:37):
The tiny room I now sat in became the hospital, locked up against my will, not allowed to leave. The strange noises in the hallway became the hospital alarms and patients crying out in pain. My sorority sisters became the nurses. "Shut up and do what I say," they told me. I was drowning in the flashback of Nicole's place, not knowing what was happening, being told what to do, where to go, and with no power over my own life. I tried to stay calm and remind myself where I was, but it was no use.
(29:07):
As long as I stayed in that space, the flashback would swallow me whole. I couldn't take it anymore. I stood up with tears in my eyes. Girls told me to sit back down. I didn't listen. I left the room. This was not a game anymore, and those blonde Barbies were not going to control me. I told those outside the room to get my mom. They said she had already gone through the ritual and was in the ceremony room. I don't give a beep about this ritual game. I screamed, "Get her out." The shocked sorority girls complied, and my mom came out.
(29:36):
Through tears, I told her what happened, what they did, and the flashback I'd had. In time she calmed me. She realized that this was not the sorority she remembered. The years had turned it into something else, something less pure and not true to the founder's vision. "Steph, you don't have to go through initiation. I'm really fine if you don't," mom told me kindly. "I've come this far. I want to go through," I said. Ultimately, I did go through the ceremony. I knew everyone would've heard what I did by that time, but I was too wiped out from the experience to be embarrassed.
(30:10):
In the end, I finally got to learn the secret sorority handshake and password. Though I'd never had an interest in joining a sorority, for years I had wanted to see into the mysterious world. I'd wanted to know the secrets. If only I had done a quick Google search all those years ago, I would've found the full initiation instructions with secrets online. When I was younger, my parents would make me and my brother stay at least a year at something we had committed to. One year I wanted to quit Girl Scouts.
(30:38):
I don't remember why, but mom made me stay until the end of the year. Well, that year came to a close and I decided to continue with Scouts, and I'm so glad I did. This experience taught me that it was important to give the sorority at least a year. I continued to go to meetings and participate, but in my mind, I was done. I even produced the recruitment video for the next rush week. But by the end of the school year, I knew I couldn't do it anymore. I never set foot in the sorority house again.
 
Beth Demme (31:07):
That sounds really traumatizing.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:10):
Correct. Yes.
 
Beth Demme (31:14):
It turned out that you didn't have to stay in that room because you got out, but then they still initiated you? I wasn't in a sorority, so I don't know how any of this works.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:24):
A big stereotype in sororities is they haze and hazing is where they force you to do something silly to kind of embarrass you. They justify it because they say, "Oh, everyone goes through it and it's fine."
 
Beth Demme (31:37):
It becomes like a bonding experience
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:39):
Is what they say. But I don't know about you, but I don't feel good being made fun of or told to do things that I'm not comfortable with. I can bond over eating junk food and watching a movie. I'm fine with that too, but whatever. They justify that their hazing was not hazing because no one was dying. They do justify that they... But actually a lot of fraternities, there was a case of some people dying in some fraternities from the hazing that they do.
(32:18):
But anyways, it's hazing. Yes, you could leave because you are a person and this is a stupid sorority thing, and they really don't have any control of you. They're trying to intimidate you and scare you and make you think that this is something that matters.
 
Beth Demme (32:36):
But also I think they wanted you to think that you had to stay in order to be initiated and that wasn't true.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:42):
No, but they want you to go through this. They think this is a fun thing that we all do. That's what they've decided is fun. There's nothing fun or enjoyable about that aspect. They let me go through initiation, obviously.
 
Beth Demme (33:01):
I've never been in a sorority, but in my high school, we had a couple of co-ed. We had some groups that were women only and we did hazing. I'm familiar with the concept. I remember specifically being told, and then for the years after that telling other people that they had to drop to the floor in the school, like on the school floor, and they had to fry bacon. It's so funny to me, but it probably was really bad, but it's still funny. Yeah, sorry. That's my experience with hazing.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:38):
Well, and that's why hazing continues to go on, because when it happens to you, all I can do is assume. My assumption is it happens to you as a let's say freshmen and you don't really like it, but you're supposed to go through it. And then when you have the chance to do it to another freshman, you're like, "Of course, I had to go through it, so they have to go through it," and then it just continues the cycle of, well, I had to do it, so they have to do it, and this is just what we do, and then you just continue the cycle of haze.
 
Beth Demme (34:13):
But also maybe it's like after you've gone through it and then... Because you talked about how the years had turned it into something else, but also I think our memories will do that. Like, oh, it wasn't that bad.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:25):
Yes.
 
Beth Demme (34:25):
It was fine.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:26):
Like childbirth, I assume, like the way women talk about it.
 
Beth Demme (34:28):
Right. I assume, because people say that.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:30):
It's like you give birth and you're like, this is the worst thing in the world, and then...
 
Beth Demme (34:35):
But then they go and do it again.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:35):
Yeah, and they're like, oh, I'm good. I have to assume it's the same thing, which is... That's an interesting concept to like... And that just continues. I personally never wanted to be involved with an organization that did hazing. The sorority, again, the only reason I did it was because my mom was in it and she said they didn't haze. And then when I explained to her what they did, she was appalled, obviously. She's still appalled by the organization and everything.
 
Beth Demme (35:05):
Girl Scouts was no hazing.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:06):
Not at all, and it's fun things. I don't know exactly the bacon thing. Maybe it was fun. You can do fun things, team building things, as long as everyone knows they have a choice and it's not like a force upon. If you're like, "Let's all do this together. If you don't want to though, you're welcome to sit," if that is presented, if it was presented to me like, "We're going to have a little fun silly thing upstairs where you're going to sit quietly.
(35:36):
But if you don't want to, you can opt out," if you have that opt-out option. But if you don't or if you feel like you don't, if that's not even presented to you, that's hazing and that's not okay to force someone to do something that they don't want to do.
 
Beth Demme (35:50):
I think there's also a time element to it, because I think that if this had been five, 10 minutes, that has a different psychological impact than hours. I think there's a time element to it too. Whatever point this happened, you were still very much in trauma recovery mode.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:12):
Well, and that was part of it too, is I had a flashback when I was sitting there. It became a whole bigger thing for me, which no one understood obviously because I started just crying and just couldn't handle it, which no one could understand. Obviously how could they understand? But it just was not okay what they put me through. I do want to say, like I said, I learned what the secret handshake and the word is. I wanted to just say it here and now what the secret word is. Okay? You're supposed to whisper it.
 
Beth Demme (36:42):
Well, but wait, because you said in the book...
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:45):
You can Google it.
 
Beth Demme (36:46):
You can Google it and it's all online. Now I want to Google all of them.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:50):
It's really silly, but the secret word is Arista.
 
Beth Demme (36:58):
But you didn't tell us which sorority.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:00):
Zeta Tau Alpha.
 
Beth Demme (37:02):
I mean, I knew it was Zeta, but I didn't want to be the one to say it.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:07):
I can't tell you verbally what the shake is because it's more something you just have to do. You shake with your pinky or something. I don't know. It's silly.
 
Beth Demme (37:17):
Is it possible that it's changed?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:19):
No, I think that's the whole part of the ritual is it's supposed to always be the same, unless they completely... Sororities, well, especially something like Zeta or the older ones, my understanding is they haven't changed. And that's the problem is they haven't changed and they need to change. They need to probably just dissolve because they are very harmful in a lot of ways. Maybe your sorority is great if you're listening and you're in a sorority and you love it.
 
Beth Demme (37:47):
It's not for everybody.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:47):
Maybe it was great.
 
Beth Demme (37:48):
It's not for everybody.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:49):
There are different kinds. There are different kinds and there's different chapters. Each school has a different chapter and they may be different. I am not saying all sororities are bad, but from my experience, having been in the system and from what I saw, it was not a healthy, good place. It was not something that we need to be promoting, and also this class system too, because it costs $2,000 a semester to be in it. There's definitely a class system to it too, which is not okay.
 
Beth Demme (38:22):
That was a big part of the reason that I didn't do it in college, but also I went through undergrad really fast, so I didn't have time to learn about all of that. I know a lot of people who had great experiences being in sororities. I think it's one of those things, it's not for everybody. Definitely it wasn't for you.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:39):
Well, it depends on what you're looking for too. If you enjoy partying a lot and drinking a lot and maybe doing some recreational drugs, you will love being a sorority. It's for you. 100%.
 
Beth Demme (38:50):
I think you just described a lot of people who are in that 19 to 21, 22 age range.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:55):
Exactly. That's what I'm saying. If that's what you enjoy, then join a sorority. You'll love it. Pay them the money. It'll be great.
 
Beth Demme (39:01):
Yes.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:02):
That wasn't me. That was never me. I've just never been into that. Still not. It's fine. You do you. But not my jam. I really wanted to do the... They do a lot of service projects, and that was really why I wanted to be in it. I wanted to do service projects like we did in Girl Scouts. But what I quickly learned is they did those things because they had to, but they would roll their eyes, they would do the bare minimum and were not into it at all. That was not their jam, and afterwards they'd just go party all night. That's really what they were there for, and that's not what I was there for.
 
Beth Demme (39:35):
That's chapter seven, and there are a total of 15 chapters, and then the conclusion. We're not quite halfway.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:43):
Wow!
 
Beth Demme (39:43):
But we're making progress.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:45):
Making progress. We will be doing a book episode a month. When will we be done? What's the math on that, Beth? You went to law school.
 
Beth Demme (39:56):
We'll finish in May or June, depending on how we handle the conclusion.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:01):
Okay, so next year.
 
Beth Demme (40:02):
Next year.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:03):
Very cool.
 
Beth Demme (40:04):
2024.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:05):
Well, we'll see if lawyer Beth is right on that. If she's not right on that, you can tell her she will be right on the retainer and the money that she got for sure, or she has people for that.
 
Beth Demme (40:15):
That's right. I have people for that.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:17):
You probably have people for that. She had to do her own math.
 
Beth Demme (40:19):
Since I only do pro bono work now, my bills are real straightforward and that I don't have any.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:25):
But I bet you do the math on it too. You still do the math. At the end of each episode, we end with questions for reflection. These are questions based on today's show that Beth will read and leave a little pause between for you to answer to yourself or you can find a PDF on our website.
 
Beth Demme (40:41):
Number one, what was your take on the situation when Steph had her stitches removed? Have you ever had a similar situation? Number two, when Steph returned from the mental hospital, UCF gave her a checklist of things she was required to do that weren't really for her benefit.
(40:57):
Have you ever felt like you were punished for doing the right thing? Number three, have you ever received an uncomfortable Facebook friend request? What did you do? And number four, do you have any experience with hazing? What are your thoughts on it?

Stephanie Kostopoulos:  This has been the Discovering Our Scars Podcast. Thank you for joining us.

In each episode, we offer you a few prompts to think about how that day's conversation applies to you. You might pause the podcast and answer them right then and there, but if you keep a journal (Steph and Beth both do), feel free to download and print a PDF of the Questions for Reflection we've made just for you: 
 
Landscape or Portrait
 

1. What surprised you during today's conversation?
2. Have you ever had to euthanize an animal? Did you think about how it impacted the vet's office?
3. Have you ever had a colleague who died by suicide? Do you think the job played a role in their decision?
4. What do you think happens to animals after they die?

  Beth Demme (00:03):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars podcast...
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:06):
... where we share personal experiences so we can learn from each other.
 
 Beth Demme (00:08):
Our mission is to talk about things you might relate to, but that you don't hear being discussed in other places.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:13):
Our hope is that you're encouraged to have honest conversations with people in your own life. I'm Steph.
 
 Beth Demme (00:18):
And I'm Beth. On today's show, we're going to have an honest conversation titled Why Veterinarians Euthanize Themselves with our special guest, Stephanie B.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:27):
Hey, Stephanie.
 
 Stephanie B. (00:28):
Hey, how are you?
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:29):
Doing good. So we have been friends for a couple of years now.
 
 Stephanie B. (00:33):
About two years, yes.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:34):
About two years. Okay.
 
 Beth Demme (00:35):
We just met, but the Stephs have been friends.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:37):
Yes. Oh, no. She's Stephanie, I'm Steph. Don't get it confused. If we get it confused, the whole world just crumbles, it doesn't work. So we both have greyhounds and we met at a Greyhound group, a Greyhound function. So nerdy.
 
 Stephanie B. (00:51):
A local Greyhound meetup.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:54):
Yes, back in 2020. And we're like, "Hi." "Hi." "I have a Greyhound." "I have a Greyhound." And that was cool. But then I was also thinking, her name is Stephanie, I bet she's pretty cool. So one of us Facebook friended each other. Probably me. I can't remember.
 
 Stephanie B. (01:08):
It-
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:08):
One-
 
 Stephanie B. (01:09):
Irrelevant.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:09):
Yes. And then I was getting into kayaking, and then you commented on a post and was like, "Hey, I kayak." And so the rest is history, really.
 
 Stephanie B. (01:17):
Yep. We have been kayaking hundreds of times?
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:19):
Thousands of-
 
 Stephanie B. (01:20):
Thousands of times.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:23):
Yes. So we kayak a lot together. I've talked about kayaking before. It's something that I love to do. I guess you like it? Maybe?
 
 Stephanie B. (01:30):
I love to do it as well.
 
 Beth Demme (01:32):
I feel like we were just lucky to get you both in the podcast studio and that you didn't make me try to get in a kayak to do this because-
 
 Stephanie B. (01:38):
Oh no, that's where we're going next.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:39):
Next. Dun-dun-dun. All the equipment, come into the... Although, one of the last times we kayaked together, I fell out. So I have now learned... I'm now more humble and realize, make sure everything is waterproof, and don't forget to put your phone in a waterproof case. All the things that I knew, but I learned real quick.
 
 Stephanie B. (02:00):
She actually made a comment before we got out onto the ocean. Went, "I'm going to film it when you fall out," or something along those lines.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:08):
To her. I said it-
 
 Stephanie B. (02:08):
To me.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:09):
... to her.
 
 Stephanie B. (02:10):
Yep. She got hit by a wave and just toppled right out.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:15):
But the worst part is that my camera wasn't on, and so I did not-
 
 Stephanie B. (02:18):
[inaudible 00:02:18].
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:18):
... get footage of it. That's what I'm most mad about. Not falling out, it was not having footage of it. But what's interesting is that we kayak together a lot. When we kayak. We talk a lot about the vet profession 'cause Stephanie is a vet tech. Veterinarian technician.
 
 Stephanie B. (02:32):
Yes. I'm a licensed veterinary technician. I'm licensed in Georgia and Florida. I've been a licensed technician for about 10 years. Graduated in 2014, so nine-ish years. I teach now. I teach veterinary technology now.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:45):
And you teach in Georgia, you said?
 
 Stephanie B. (02:46):
I teach in Georgia.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:48):
Very cool.
 
 Beth Demme (02:48):
And how long is that program to get licensed and...
 
 Stephanie B. (02:51):
It's an associate's degree program, so it takes about two years.
 
 Beth Demme (02:54):
Two years, okay.
 
 Stephanie B. (02:55):
You can do a bachelor's program. You can get a bachelor's in veterinary technology. I'm actually working towards my bachelor's right now.
 
 Beth Demme (03:02):
Oh, neat.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:02):
So what made you want to get into the vet field?
 
 Stephanie B. (03:06):
I always wanted to be a veterinarian when I was a child. Grew up with animals, always really liked dogs, cats, other rabbits, snakes-
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:17):
Goats.
 
 Stephanie B. (03:17):
... birds, goats, turtles, you name it. There are very few animals that I don't want to pet. And my dad is actually a medical professional. He's a respiratory therapist. So I always thought it would be really cool to do what he did with animals. I didn't realize that there were different delineations. I figured, oh, you could only be a vet. I didn't realize there was a veterinary nurse or vet tech. So I wanted to go to vet school. And then in high school, I did not apply myself, and that was not an option. It's really hard to get into vet school, so you have to not be lazy.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:00):
Well, and it's really expensive, right?
 
 Stephanie B. (04:02):
It's also very expensive. And I grew up below the poverty line, so that was not probably going to be an option for me. But after I got married and moved down here, after working 10 years in kitchens, I was a professional chef for a while, I actually went to culinary school, my husband said, "Oh, they're opening a vet tech program in Thomasville. You should go." And so he supported me as I went to school. And I actually had a friend from high school, also named Stephanie.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:31):
Nice.
 
 Beth Demme (04:31):
Whoa.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:32):
Yes.
 
 Stephanie B. (04:33):
And she actually went to tech school at Athens, and she really helped push me in that direction too. She really enjoyed it. So at that point, before I actually started the program, I got a job part-time as a kennel tech 'cause you had to have so many hours of experience. The rest is history.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:52):
That's awesome. We've talked about it on the podcast, but recently, about seven months ago, actually, I had to euthanize my Greyhound, Mac, which you helped me through definitely. But I remember, when that happened, my mom sent me an article about the toll it takes on vets and vet professionals to have to euthanize an animal and what that process is like. And I had never really thought about it, but then I talked to you about it, and you're like, "Oh, yeah, that's something that is definitely big in the industry." So that's why I thought it would be good to bring you here today to discuss that and what the reality is of working with animals and people and euthanasia and all that. And suicide. So why not bring my friend to-
 
 Stephanie B. (05:39):
Well, it is-
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:39):
... talk about that?
 
 Stephanie B. (05:40):
... National Suicide Awareness month.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:41):
It is, yes.
 
 Stephanie B. (05:42):
It is.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:42):
So it is a good tie-in, I guess, you could say.
 
 Beth Demme (05:47):
It's a tough topic though. It's a tough topic, and it's an aspect of your industry that I think would be... Is it fair to say that's the toughest aspect, is dealing with euthanasia and with people around the euthanasia of their pets?
 
 Stephanie B. (06:01):
No, actually.
 
 Beth Demme (06:03):
Okay.
 
 Stephanie B. (06:04):
Euthanasia is difficult, but generally it's viewed as a gift we can give our patients when they're suffering. We can help alleviate that suffering, which is the entire reason most of us went into the field is to help alleviate suffering of animals. Now, the whole death process surrounding an animal is difficult. Watching them decline is difficult. Watching owners have to deal with their pets declining, that can be really difficult.
(06:35):
It's also really difficult to watch owners not accept that their animal is at a point that they should probably let them go, and that can actually lead out to burnout and compassion fatigue, which is probably... Compassion fatigue is probably the number one difficult issue in veterinary medicine, and that's got a lot of contributing factors.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:01):
So have you euthanized an animal? I'm assuming.
 
 Stephanie B. (07:04):
Personally me, push the drug?
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:06):
Well, no, 'cause a veterinarian has to do that, right?
 
 Stephanie B. (07:09):
Well, in Georgia, technicians can legally do that, and I have.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:13):
Oh, okay. Wow.
 
 Stephanie B. (07:15):
Yeah. So-
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:15):
Okay, well, then tell me about that.
 
 Stephanie B. (07:18):
Well-
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:18):
Actually having to push the meds that euthanize the animal.
 
 Stephanie B. (07:21):
The first time was actually in Florida, but because it was a friend of mine, and she was another technician, she asked me if I could come into work early and help her with her cat. And it was time with her cat too. But that's always a little harder, more because it was a friend, and I was watching my friend have to go through that. And then the last time I actually had to euthanize an animal, the doctor was out of town, but it was a puppy who had a liver shunt and was not going to... I don't know the details around the owner. There may have been some financial constraints. It may not have been an option to treat. But had an abdomen full of fluid., Was acting normal, very happy puppy wiggling around and wanting to lick my face, but it was not going to stay a happy, healthy puppy. It was very quickly going to deteriorate.
(08:24):
And that's also difficult when you have to euthanize an animal that is happy and looking at you smiling, trying to lick your face, especially a puppy. But it was the best thing to do for that patient. So that's a little difficult, but it doesn't make me feel any different than just being present, the actual act of being the one who pushes the drug. I didn't feel any different than I would have if I had just been restraining or just being involved in the process without actually being the one to administer. 'Cause I generally administer the other drugs. Any anti-anxiety meds we give beforehand, I'm usually the one that gives those. So...
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:08):
From my knowledge of euthanasia, there's usually a vet tech and a veterinarian, and the tech will put an IV catheter in, and then the vet will give the sedative and then the euthanasia, which is the substance that basically kills the dog.
 
 Stephanie B. (09:26):
Yeah, it's an overdose of pentobarbital.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:28):
Is that something where it's based on the weight of the animal, how much is given? Or is it just a standard amount?
 
 Stephanie B. (09:34):
It's based on the weight of the animal, and we usually pull up a little extra because that's not something you... You're already giving an overdose, you can't over overdose them. So we are very particular about calculating doses of drugs, so that you avoid unwanted side effects. But since that is the side effect you want, it is a large amount.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:00):
Do you know how many euthanasias you've been a part of?
 
 Stephanie B. (10:02):
Probably upwards of a thousand.
 
 Beth Demme (10:04):
Oh wow.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:05):
Oh my goodness.
 
 Stephanie B. (10:06):
In the 10 decades that I've been doing this. We're also involved with signing a card or sending flowers or what have you. So we're involved in the process somehow, generally. So yeah, when you count the patients that I wasn't there directly for in the room, it's easily in the thousands.
 
 Beth Demme (10:29):
And are there times when the client or the pet owner is not present? Is that their option to be with the patient or not?
 
 Stephanie B. (10:36):
They do have that option. We encourage owners to be there just because the pets really do, they look around for them. It's a comforting presence for the animal. But there have been a handful over the years, probably only a handful that I've been a part of, where the owners did not want to be there. And in that situation, we do what we can to comfort the animal. One of us holds them, pets them, tells them that they've been a good dog or cat or what have you, and usually give them treats if they'll accept it, if they're not so sick that they won't eat. Give them something nice to sit on, or we'll take them outside. If it's a sunny pretty day, we'll go sit under trees in the backyard of the vet clinic, which is also an option with owners present. Sometimes we'll go outside for that.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:30):
So with all these euthanasias that you've done, do you always feel the same during the process? What does it feel like for you?
 
 Stephanie B. (11:40):
It really depends on a couple of factors: my relationship with the individual animal, my relationship with that owner, how sick the animal is, and a lot of times, which doctor I'm going in with. In general practice, there were times that I didn't know the pet or the owner particularly well, or at all. It might've been the first time we saw them. So you don't really have that bond or a connection. You still feel sad. You hurt for that owner having to lose their beloved pet.
(12:18):
When I did internal medicine, I worked as an internal medicine technician for five years. And we followed a lot of patients long-term. A lot of these animals had chronic illnesses, so a lot of what we did was palliative. So we diagnosed them with say, cancer, and then we'd be with them through the treatment of their cancer until that treatment didn't work anymore.
(12:43):
And you're seeing these animals once every three weeks or even more frequently. So you get really attached to some of them. And I get really attached to owners. I've got a whole list of owners that I just absolutely adore. And so you know their relationship with their pet, and you've seen how it has affected them, so I generally do cry at euthanasias. A lot of technicians try not to, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. A lot of vets do as well. This is an emotional situation. I think that it's okay to show emotion.
(13:20):
You don't want to bawl and make it about you because it's not about you. But usually there's... Almost always, there's a sense of release after it's done. You feel better. You feel like you've actually helped to alleviate the pain from that animal.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:39):
Does it take a mental toll on you, or is that something that all is done in the room? Like you said, after it happens, you are relieved. But I didn't know if there's something like when you go home, "I always listen to this song or do this thing." I didn't know if there's a process you have to go through that.
 
 Stephanie B. (13:55):
After the owner leaves, we still have some things that we have to do with the animal. We have to prepare them, usually put them in a coffin. We get these little cardboard coffins that we'll send them, if they're going home to be buried at home, or a body bag, and then put them in cold storage so that they can be picked up by the crematory service.
(14:21):
And then at that point, that's when we're preparing things like nose prints or paw prints or what have you. So we still have to do some processing with the animal after the owner leaves. So that gives us a chance to decompress a little bit. There have been definite situations where I've had to take a five, 10-minute break after euthanasia, especially if it was a particularly difficult one. And that's more often to decompress from the emotions from the owner, purge that from your system, put on a game face before you go into the next room.
(14:58):
When you're walking out of a euthanasia and into a new puppy exam, it can get emotional whiplash. So you do have to take a minute or two to recenter yourself. Euthanizing animals is, like I said, it's a relief. We go into the field because we want to alleviate suffering. And sometimes that's the best way to alleviate suffering.
(15:27):
That's a gift. That's something that we can do that I feel good about. There are technicians that go into services where that's all they do, and they choose that.
 
 Beth Demme (15:40):
That's true.
 
 Stephanie B. (15:43):
Because it makes them feel good about themselves, it makes them feel like they're contributing to society in a meaningful way. And I agree with that. There's a lot of other things, a lot of other components to vet med that is really stressful. Low wages, long hours can affect anyone. Not getting recognition. I went to school. I've done continuing education. I have years of experience in specialty med. But in Florida, there's no delineation between an on-the-job trained tech and a licensed tech. There's no title protection. And I know plenty of on-the-job trained techs who are fantastic. I love them. I hope that when they do eventually change the rules in Florida, they will be able to be grandfathered in.
(16:34):
But I do have a problem with people just coming in off the street and being able to do the same things that I went to school to do, especially when we're working at the same level as human nurses, basically. That's obviously not the only component. Owners can be very mean. When you bring your animal to the vet, if it's not for a wellness visit, and even if it is for a wellness visit, it's usually stressful. If your animal is sick, then the owner's going to be stressed. But because most owners don't have insurance, a lot of them have financial constraints. And they tend to take that out on the staff.
(17:16):
We set our prices because we have to be able to live.
 
 Beth Demme (17:21):
Do your jobs.
 
 Stephanie B. (17:21):
We have to be able to pay rent, we have to be able to buy food just like anyone else. And we're not making a ton of profit, especially in general practice. Specialty practice, you're probably seeing more of a profit, the techs are probably getting paid a little bit better. And I did specialty med, and I did get paid a little bit more than... But it still wasn't enough. It's higher stress because, for example, I scheduled to work four days a week, Monday through Friday, 8:00 to 6:00. I usually would get there at 7:45, and I'd usually leave about 8:00 PM most days. Between 7:00 and 8:00 PM. My husband's waiting in the car for me because we would carpool in. We would see up to 20 internal medicine cases a day. And internal medicine is not like a quick in and out. It takes hours to... So these animals-
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:19):
It's basically a specialty vet.
 
 Stephanie B. (18:20):
Well, it is a specialty vet. She's actually a boarded specialist. So it's the long hours. I may or may not have a chance to sit down and eat lunch. Lucky if I get to go to the bathroom on a regular basis. Then you have animals that are whining. There's the sound component. I handle it pretty well, but I do get migraines, and I've had migraines triggered from just being at work.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:49):
Just barking dogs.
 
 Stephanie B. (18:50):
Barking dogs, whining dogs, cats that are-
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:52):
Stressed dogs.
 
 Stephanie B. (18:52):
... yelling. Operating room, when they pull out the bone saw, you can hear that from across the building. So yeah, there's a lot of noises, a lot of... It's hard on your body. You're not sitting down very often. You're moving a lot.
 
 Beth Demme (19:09):
Lifting a lot.
 
 Stephanie B. (19:10):
Lifting a lot. I've got a bad back because of it. That's why I teach now instead of-
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:14):
Do you have to lift animals onto tables and stuff? Heavy animals?
 
 Stephanie B. (19:18):
Oh yeah. So yeah, if you've got a 180-pound Cane Corso, and it needs to have-
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:25):
And how do you do an X-ray on a belly of a giant dog?
 
 Stephanie B. (19:28):
With help.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:30):
Don't you have to spread their legs open and-
 
 Stephanie B. (19:34):
You have to put them on their back, usually in a trough, so that they don't roll over, 'cause a lot of these dogs are deep-chested. Tech at the head, holding the arms and the head, tech at the back end, holding the back feet.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:48):
How does that work when you're doing an X-ray? 'Cause you said you have to hold them, but isn't there a danger with X-rays?
 
 Stephanie B. (19:55):
Yes. We wear personal protective equipment, PPEs, lead line vests, lead line gloves, a thyroid shield. You try to move yourself as far away from the primary beam as you can. I actually taught radiology this past semester, so I won't go into too much detail, but there are some other safety precautions and stuff you do.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:21):
So is that always taken, all those safety precautions taken, at all vet offices, or is there a danger for...
 
 Stephanie B. (20:29):
Ideally they are, but realistically, no. If you see pictures online of a dog's X-ray, and you see a technician's hand in the picture, that happens, but that shouldn't happen.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:44):
What happens if you X-ray too many times? Isn't there cancers and stuff that you could get?
 
 Stephanie B. (20:48):
Yeah.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:49):
Wow. Do you know of any people in the vet field that have gotten cancer from-
 
 Stephanie B. (20:53):
Thyroid cancer?
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:54):
Yeah.
 
 Stephanie B. (20:54):
Yes.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:54):
Wow. So it's definitely-
 
 Stephanie B. (20:57):
That's-
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:57):
I wonder if that's a higher amount-
 
 Stephanie B. (20:59):
It is.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:59):
... as well. Yeah.
 
 Stephanie B. (20:59):
Yeah. There's a... yeah.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:01):
Because I know, at the dentist, they walk out of the room to do the thing, but you can't.
 
 Stephanie B. (21:07):
Well, if we were to sedate animals as often as we should, but owners-
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:15):
It takes time-
 
 Stephanie B. (21:15):
... also don't-
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:15):
... doesn't it?
 
 Stephanie B. (21:16):
It takes time. Owners generally tend to not want their pets sedated, even though it can actually be less stressful. But yeah, we frequently have to be the ones who restrain during X-rays.
 
 Beth Demme (21:31):
I'm not a pet person, but as you were describing having one tech at one end and one tech at the other end, I'm like, which end would I want? Neither, neither.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:40):
Neither.
 
 Beth Demme (21:40):
I would want neither end, yes. This is definitely not what I'm called to. Very clear on that, thank you.
 
 Stephanie B. (21:44):
The back end is better because-
 
 Beth Demme (21:47):
They can't bite you from that end.
 
 Stephanie B. (21:49):
But they can kick you in the face, which I've had happen.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:52):
Actually, Beth, you can answer the question for us though. Where do dogs go after they're euthanized? Since you're a pastor, can you answer that for us?
 
 Beth Demme (21:58):
What do you think, Stephanie B? Do you believe in a human and/or an animal afterlife, and do they intersect?
 
 Stephanie B. (22:06):
I'm actually very agnostic and don't actually believe in anything following death. However, if there is an afterlife, then there best be animals there. All dogs go to heaven, and there has to be. You can't make a heaven for people without having their beloved pets. I would refuse to go to a heaven that didn't have all of my animals there.
 
 Beth Demme (22:35):
There you go. So it must be there.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:37):
Do you believe that?
 
 Beth Demme (22:38):
Yes.
 
 Stephanie B. (22:39):
Yeah.
 
 Beth Demme (22:39):
Yes.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:40):
So it's true? 'Cause you're a pastor, you can say it's true.
 
 Stephanie B. (22:42):
Yes.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:43):
Okay, it's true. We learned it.
 
 Stephanie B. (22:46):
The answer to are there dogs in heaven?
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:49):
Pastor Beth said yes.
 
 Beth Demme (22:51):
One of the reasons we wanted to have you on today was to talk about how all of those factors, the euthanasia of animals, but also all of the things that are involved in this caring profession, how it really affects the people who work in the field. And just based on our cursory look at it, it seems like veterinarians and vet techs are more likely to die by suicide than the general population. Has that been your experience?
 
 Stephanie B. (23:23):
Not just my experience, but it's been proven through studies. I follow a lot of different publications, and that is something that they address frequently in veterinary publications, and at every conference I've been to, there's always someone talking about that because there is a big push to help with the mental health of our profession.
(23:45):
But one study I'm going to quote found that female veterinarians are 2.4 times more likely than the general public to commit suicide or to die by suicide. The rate of... It's higher for male veterinary technicians. It's up to five times higher. There aren't as many male veterinary technicians in the field, so that's a smaller pool. But then also female veterinary technicians, the rate is 1.6 times higher, and for male veterinarians, it's 2.3 times higher.
(24:21):
I've read other studies that have given different statistics. The veterinary profession as a whole, I think, in one study I read, was up to four times higher than the general public to have people die by suicide. There have been people in our community, veterinary professionals in our community, that I have known of. I didn't know them personally, but I did know of them. There was someone several years back when I was a student who actually had bought the clinic from a vet I knew. He had retired as a clinician and was actually teaching and sold his practice, and the woman he sold his practice to had moved into the clinic. She was living there, and she had a bunch of special needs animals that she had adopted.
(25:15):
And one night, she closed up, and she actually euthanized all of her animals, and then used the euthanasia solution on herself. And her technician came in the next day and found her. I read articles about veterinarians and technicians who have died by suicide in the Atlanta area or other big cities fairly frequently. And vet students. I think vet students actually have a pretty high risk as well, while they're still in vet school.
 
 Beth Demme (25:43):
And all sorts of people are called to this profession, feel called to this profession. So the common denominator is the work. It's not as if it's something about the people who choose this as a profession, right? So what would you say? Why are the rates so much higher?
 
 Stephanie B. (26:02):
It probably can be partially the types of people that are called to this profession. You generally aren't called to be a caretaker, especially a caretaker that's not going to be financially compensated, because you're an empathetic person. You probably are a little bit more sensitive. You see things that are innocent, and you want to help them.
(26:27):
And a lot of people who are not people people get into this. They like animals. They don't necessarily like people as much. So they get into the profession, and there's a human attached to every leash or every carrier, their owners.
 
 Beth Demme (26:46):
The animals don't bring themselves to the vet? Wow.
 
 Stephanie B. (26:48):
Niles would. He likes to go to the vet, but he's an anomaly.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:53):
Stephanie's greyhound, he's the best. He's here with us today, by the way.
 
 Stephanie B. (26:56):
Yeah, he's sleeping on the sofa. It's higher for veterinarians as well because they have this financial investment. Going to vet school costs as much as going to medical school, takes the same amount of time. They've got to do a four-year undergrad, then they have to do a four year vet school. And some of them may go on to do a residency or what have you. Not all of them do. Some go straight into practice. So I know that human physicians do a four-year residency, and that is not always something that vets do, but it is an option. Any specialist has done at least a four-year residency, if not longer.
(27:40):
But you get out, you're not making a lot of money, but you have student loans. So you can't really leave the field. If you start burning out, what are you supposed to do? A technician can. Even me, who went to school and paid money to go to school, I'm not in debt from it. We paid for it out of pocket because it was affordable. We ate rice and beans the whole time, and I don't want to leave the field because of the financial commitment that I've made to it, but I have that option because I don't have that debt over my head. It would be easier for me to start over, whereas a veterinarian can't really start over as easily.
(28:23):
They also have a lot more of the blame. Pet owners don't have pet insurance frequently. Some do. Those, bless them, I love them. They generally aren't the problem. But you have people who bring an animal to the vet because it's injured or sick, and they can't afford treatment. And then we recommend euthanasia because that is in the animal's best interest, and they get mad. "You don't care. You obviously don't care. You're just in it for the money. Vets don't care, they're just in it for the money." That is a very common misconception. Most vets, if not all of them, have heard that at least once in their lifetime in their career, probably more frequently. I know that I've heard it multiple times when I worked at the specialty practice. It wasn't as big of a problem there because most people knew it was going to cost more going in 'cause it was a referral center, they'd already gone to their primary care vet. But in GP, you hear that a lot.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:35):
Do vets not make a lot of money?
 
 Stephanie B. (29:37):
No.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:38):
'Cause you just said they have to go through all the same training as a medical doctor. And I think the perception is medical doctors make a lot of money.
 
 Stephanie B. (29:47):
Yeah.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:48):
So do vets not? It would take years and years and years to-
 
 Stephanie B. (29:52):
I think the average is something like $80,000 a year.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:55):
Huh.
 
 Stephanie B. (29:57):
You can obviously make more and bigger cities. And if you are an intern, a resident who's just out of vet school and decides to do a four-year residency, they're probably making less than the technicians are. They're probably making 32 a year or something. I don't know.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:16):
And they still have to pay off all their loans.
 
 Stephanie B. (30:17):
Yeah, they're still having to pay off their loans. You're not going to get into human physician money unless you're a specialist.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:25):
So do they really get into it... If they have to do all the same as people stuff, they just like animals more than people? Is that why they become vets over medical doctors?
 
 Stephanie B. (30:35):
Generally, yeah.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:36):
Yeah, okay.
 
 Stephanie B. (30:37):
Yeah.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:38):
This is probably really oversimplified, but do you think it's better to euthanize than wait for your dog to die on their own?
 
 Stephanie B. (30:45):
Depends, but generally, yes. Dying is painful. I watched my grandmother pass away. It took her about four days from the moment that she lost the ability to be cognizant of what was going on around. And it was dehydration, and it was really awful. Yeah, dying is a painful process. Even if the animal is not displaying signs of pain per se, it's not comfortable.
(31:20):
I know that a lot of animals die of kidney failure. That's a very common disease process that happens with older animals. And some owners don't... Their animals not necessarily in pain, but their animal's chronically dehydrated. And anyone who's had a hangover can tell you that being dehydrated sucks. And if you're that dehydrated for weeks on end, 'cause it takes a long time to die of dehydration from kidney failure. So yeah, I do think that that's not the best option. I know most owners want, I've heard, that are opposed to euthanizing their animals, "I want him to pass peacefully in his sleep." It's like, "Well, that's what euthanasia is."
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:00):
And the definition of euthanasia is humane death.
 
 Stephanie B. (32:04):
Good death.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:05):
Good death, yeah. So that's basically what you're doing, and that's why you call it a service almost, is that you are being able to provide that for an animal and not have to suffer.
 
 Stephanie B. (32:14):
Well, these animals don't have the same sense of mortality that we do. They don't grasp it. So they feel like crap. And it's not going to get better. So the very first thing that the pentobarbital does is it blocks the pain sensors, it takes away pain. And then it shuts down the central nervous system. So it is a very painless death.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:42):
I'm a client, and my animal's the patient, right?
 
 Stephanie B. (32:45):
Yeah.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:45):
So as a client, having this knowledge that you're telling me like, "Whoa, it's a hard job to be in the vet profession," what could I do as a client to show my thank you to my vet and to show that I understand that this is hard, and I really appreciate? What's the best way of showing appreciation, I guess?
 
 Stephanie B. (33:13):
General common courtesy. Don't be a jerk.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:16):
Don't be a jerk, okay.
 
 Stephanie B. (33:18):
Have patience. When they're backed up, when things are taking longer than you think they should, there's usually a reason for it. Actually, there's always a reason for it. They're not just being lazy. We always like food.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:29):
Food.
 
 Stephanie B. (33:29):
Yeah.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:30):
Okay-
 
 Stephanie B. (33:30):
Yeah, any time-
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:30):
... what's the best food?
 
 Stephanie B. (33:32):
That depends. Not pizza. We get pizza parties-
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:37):
Not pizza.
 
 Stephanie B. (33:37):
... all the time for office-
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:39):
Not a party at that point.
 
 Stephanie B. (33:41):
Yeah. I love pizza, and I'll eat pizza anytime you put it in front of me. And so I'm not saying, "Never pizza," but because that is the default... Pizza and donuts are the default.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:54):
Ah, okay. Sandwiches?
 
 Stephanie B. (33:56):
Sandwiches. And keep in mind that a lot of technicians, not all of them, but a lot of technicians are vegetarian. We had one client, to say thank you, would very frequently keep our refrigerator or freezer stocked with popsicles or put popcorn in the cupboards. Even after we weren't seeing her pet anymore, she would come around and bring goodies and just come in and be a good human being. People like her really help. Also being a good, compliant owner. That helps.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:36):
I do that. I'm good at that.
 
 Stephanie B. (34:37):
You are very good at that. That's really, really frustrating when someone does not follow our instructions and then comes in and complains that things did not work out the way we expected it to because, well, you're not following the instructions.
 
 Beth Demme (34:53):
Yeah. That happens with humans too.
 
 Stephanie B. (34:55):
Yeah. My sister's an RN, so yeah, it absolutely does.
 
 Beth Demme (35:01):
What would you say about compassion fatigue to someone who was thinking about becoming a veterinary professional? And what would you maybe say to them even about how the ways that this impacts mental health also leads to an increase in death by suicide? Would you warn people about that?
 
 Stephanie B. (35:19):
I think it's valid to warn people, that have an interest in the veterinary field, that it does have an emotional toll. Like I mentioned earlier, a lot of people who go into it are very sensitive. Especially technicians, I think. You see a lot of tech students that have divergencies. I've had several autistic students, I've had several students with ADD. Those people tend to also be empaths. So they are a little bit more heavily affected by the emotional atmosphere around them.
(36:06):
And they go into it because they love animals, obviously, they want to help. But if you ask them, they would tell you, "Oh yeah, I know that I'm going to see dogs and cats that are sick, I'm going to see the dogs and cats that are going to die." Most of them are aware that that is a component of it. My nephew actually said that he didn't think he would want to be a vet tech because he didn't want to see animals die.
(36:30):
So even at his young age, he's 13 or just about, he's aware that that is a component of it. But what they're not aware of is how mean, honestly, some clients are. I come from a background of working... I worked 10 years in kitchens. And you had the same sort of stressful, you've got clients yelling at you. It's hot, you're on your feet, it's physically demanding. You don't have the same emotional side effects of suffering, but I'm pretty sure that the restaurant industry also has a higher suicide rate because of the same sorts of problems: low pay, hard on your body. That's not something that I think people are really aware of when they decide they want to go into vet med. So yeah, people should be warned, but not scared off of.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:30):
So if you had been warned by someone like you, if someone had said, "Just so you're aware, dah, dah, dah," would you have still become a vet tech?
 
 Stephanie B. (37:38):
Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:43):
Well, thank you Stephanie. I'm so glad we had you on the podcast.
 
 Beth Demme (37:47):
Woohoo!
 
 Stephanie B. (37:48):
Thank you.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:49):
I feel like next time I want to talk about kayaking, but I don't know how you talk about that. You just do it, right?
 
 Stephanie B. (37:54):
We can come up with a way to talk about kayaking.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:56):
Just kayaks and just being on the water. And gators. We'd have to talk about gators.
 
 Stephanie B. (38:02):
Yeah.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:02):
Alligators.
 
 Stephanie B. (38:03):
I love alligators.
 
 Beth Demme (38:04):
So there's one-
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:05):
Have you ever had an alligator come into your practice, into your vet med practice? That would be so exciting.
 
 Stephanie B. (38:10):
Not in practice, but at school.
 
 Beth Demme (38:12):
Ooh, interesting.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:14):
A baby gator?
 
 Stephanie B. (38:14):
Nope.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:15):
A big gator?
 
 Stephanie B. (38:16):
[inaudible 00:38:17] about...
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:16):
It just walked in itself?
 
 Stephanie B. (38:18):
No. Someone brought him in. And she was licensed to have him. I did an ultrasound on them, and we took radiographs.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:25):
My gosh, you probably were-
 
 Beth Demme (38:26):
So fun.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:26):
... loving it.
 
 Stephanie B. (38:27):
It was awesome.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:29):
Wow. There's one question we like to ask all of our guests, just a random question at the end. So Beth is going to go ahead and ask.
 
 Beth Demme (38:37):
What book TV, show, or podcast are you excited about right now, other than this one?
 
 Stephanie B. (38:42):
Podcast: Fear of Going Outside by Ivy Lee. She's a friend of mine out in Texas.
 
 Beth Demme (38:48):
Cool.
 
 Stephanie B. (38:49):
She's awesome. You should check her out. Oh, anything Star Trek.
 
 Beth Demme (38:52):
Yeah? Okay.
 
 Stephanie B. (38:54):
Currently, we're watching that new Ahsoka Star Wars show.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:59):
On Disney plus.
 
 Stephanie B. (39:00):
Anything science fiction. I'm actually really, really excited about the next Dune movie. That's probably the one thing I'm most excited about, out of life in general, is Dune 2.
 
 Beth Demme (39:09):
Okay.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:11):
Lastly, I was wondering, are there any resources for people actually in the vet field that they could use for helping with some of the stuff we talked about today?
 
 Stephanie B. (39:20):
There are. There's a nonprofit organization called notonemorevet.org, and they are really focused on helping address the suicide rate in veterinary medicine. There are some other ones. I can't think of them off the top of my head, but-
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:38):
Well, if you send them to us, we can put a link in the description.
 
 Stephanie B. (39:40):
I will.
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:41):
Perfect. At the end of each episode, we end with questions for reflection. These are questions based on today's show that Beth will read and leave a little pause between for you to answer to yourself, or you can find a PDF on our website.
 
 Beth Demme (39:54):
Number one, what surprised you during today's conversation? Number two, have you ever had to euthanize an animal? Did you think about how it impacted the vet's office? Number three, have you ever had a colleague who died by suicide? Do you think the job played a role in their decision? And number four, what do you think happens to animals after they die?
 
 Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:20):
This has been the Discovering Our Scars podcast. Thank you for joining us. 

In each episode, we offer you a few prompts to think about how that day's conversation applies to you. You might pause the podcast and answer them right then and there, but if you keep a journal (Steph and Beth both do), feel free to download and print a PDF of the Questions for Reflection we've made just for you: 
 
Landscape or Portrait
 

1. Have you had an experience where you were dehumanized?
2. Can you think of a time when you had what Steph called a real human moment?
3. Reflect on the connection between your heart and brain. Are they in sync?
4. Think about your own coping mechanisms. Are there any that you might need to change?

 
Beth Demme (00:03):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars Podcast.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:06):
Where we share personal experiences so we can learn from each other. I'm Steph.
 
Beth Demme (00:08):
And I'm Beth.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:09):
I've been in recovery for 16 years and am the author of Discovering My Scars, my memoir about what's done in the darkness eventually comes to light.
 
Beth Demme (00:16):
I'm a lawyer turned pastor who's all about self-awareness and emotional health because I know what it's like to have neither of those things.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:22):
Beth and I have been friends for years, have gone through a recovery program together, and when I wanted to start a podcast, she was the only named that came to mind as co-host.
 
Beth Demme (00:29):
I didn't hesitate to say yes because I've learned a lot from sharing personal experiences with Steph over the years.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:35):
We value honest conversations and we hope you do too.
 
Beth Demme (00:38):
On today's show, we're going to have an honest conversation titled: Discovering My Scars, Chapter Six.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:43):
Then we'll share a slice of life and the show will close with questions for reflection, where we'll invite you to reflect on the conversation in your own life. All right. Here we go again, Beth. We have done this five times so far.
 
Beth Demme (00:54):
Yes. Good.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:55):
And we are now on to Chapter Six of my book.
 
Beth Demme (00:58):
Yeah, we're going to dive into your memoir. Chapter Six is titled 74 Hours.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:02):
Mm-hmm.
 
Beth Demme (01:03):
So you're in the hospital at this point?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:06):
Yes.
 
Beth Demme (01:06):
Oh, yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:07):
So the book is broken into three sections, actually. There is Hospital, Abuse, and Recovery. And so, we are on the last chapter of the hospital section. So just like we've done in the past, we are going to play the audio of the chapter and then we will stop periodically to discuss. And the audio is from my audiobook version of my book that I recorded with my voice. So you'll hear this voice, but saying, "My book."
 
Beth Demme (01:41):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:42):
This is the voice.
 
Beth Demme (01:43):
But it's not you. You're not sitting here reading it right now.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:45):
No.
 
Beth Demme (01:46):
We're using a recording from when you recorded it.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:49):
Years ago.
 
Beth Demme (01:50):
The audiobook.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:50):
Yes.
Audio (01:53):
Chapter 6, 74 Hours. I waited patiently outside the nurse's box for visiting hours to begin. My roommate Megan had called me earlier in the day to tell me she would be coming to see me. She would be bringing two things I really needed, a quality toothbrush and two-ply toilet paper.
(02:11):
Megan and I had just met a few months before, but had become fast friends. We shared a lot about our personal lives. I had told her about my history with self-injury. Megan was so different from me, but we respected each other and our differences. When Megan arrived, I jumped up and down inside my head with glee. We made light of the hospital, laughing and played Human for an hour. I told her about Nicole and some of the people I had met. She asked me what she should tell people if they ask where I was. I said, "I don't care, whatever you want." "How about I tell them you're at Nicole's place?" Megan said. "Ha, that's a good code word for it," I said. "I like it. Nicole's place it is."
(02:50):
After Megan left, I headed to dinner. In the dining room, a new guy told me that I looked like his daughter. He was probably in his forties or fifties and looked like he had done a lot of living. His face was worn from the things he had seen. I couldn't see it at first because we were sitting down, but he showed me where he had a chunk shot out of his leg in a war. His whole calf was missing. It looked strange. How could he still walk? He seemed pretty normal; he had just lived a lot of life. I never asked what he was in the hospital for.
 
Beth Demme (03:21):
Okay, so I'm going to stop you there. Megan, who has come to visit you, is not the roommate who ate your food?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:30):
No. Yeah. I had three random roommates in college, and Megan was the one that I was the closest to.
 
Beth Demme (03:38):
And this person, it sounds like maybe he was a veteran?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:42):
Yes. Yeah. I would assume.
 
Beth Demme (03:43):
And he had this, it sounds like a pretty horrible injury to his leg?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:50):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (03:51):
I know it's been a while, but do you remember, even as you're hearing your own voice read this back, do you remember how that came up? Was it like, "Hey." In Forrest Gump, what's his name? "I'm Dan. I'm Dan, and this is my injury."
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:04):
Well, I think the reason we started talking was because I looked like his daughter.
 
Beth Demme (04:10):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:10):
And so, I don't remember exactly how things transpired, but I just remember having had this good conversation with Megan and just kind of felt more like a human again. I remember that feeling, but then going back into the dining room and seeing new people and also realizing where I was again. But I was also still in higher spirits because I had just talked to Megan, and so I think I was trying to be more social at that point.
 
Beth Demme (04:43):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:44):
And so, when he talked to me, I probably talked to him. But I don't know. Yeah, I don't know how that came up. But I still remember, it was like his calf, but it was like...
 
Beth Demme (04:55):
But the muscle was gone.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:58):
Yeah. And it's like I see it in my head. And it's almost like the way I see my book is like I see it as a movie in my head. And so, almost in my head it looks unreal, because also it would be unreal if it was in a movie because you'd have to CGI it to look like that, because I just was so...
 
Beth Demme (05:20):
Not the way a human calf looks.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:21):
Yeah. And because it has been so long, I almost am like, "Did that really happen? Or did I see this in a movie somewhere?" But I know it happened because it was something that I had written.
 
Beth Demme (05:34):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:34):
I wrote a lot of these things, when it first happened, I wrote that down.
 
Beth Demme (05:40):
You started keeping a journal while you were at the CRC.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:42):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (05:43):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:43):
And there was things that I wrote down that were just so jarring. But if I had started writing this book just a couple years ago and hadn't written those things, I don't think I would have remembered that.
 
Beth Demme (05:55):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:55):
I think I would have probably thought that was something I had seen in a movie, that it wasn't actually real life. Also, something that happened before that when we talked about Nicole's place, that actually was the original title of this entire book, was Nicole's Place. But my publisher didn't think it made sense because first of all, who is Nicole?
 
Beth Demme (06:14):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:14):
You'd have to really read the book to understand what that means.
 
Beth Demme (06:17):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:17):
But Nicole's place is basically a code word for mental hospital. It was essentially what we called it. I do like the title better now of my story. And also, my book originally was only going to be the mental hospital, and then it expanded into more as my life progressed and new things came up is kind of how it became more than just that story. So that also is why it didn't make sense to call it Nicole's Place, because like I said, it's broken into three sections. And so, this is just the first section, the first part of the story.
 
Beth Demme (06:48):
Yeah. And if you're just joining us just now at Chapter Six, you have to go back and listen to understand who Nicole is and why that's significant.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:56):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Nicole was my roommate in the mental hospital, and she had some mental health issues.
 
Beth Demme (07:04):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:04):
And so, she did seem like that was a place that she needed to be, just on the surface from what I saw. And so, that's why we thought Nicole's place was a good name because she seemed like she did need to be there potentially, or a place like that probably would have been beneficial for her, so that's why we thought that was a good name for it.
Audio (07:24):
Right after dinner, all the patients lined up outside the nurses' drive-through style window. Slowly, one by one, patients picked up a cup full of pills, swallowed them, then showed the nurses they had done so. This moment seemed the craziest of all to me. If this was all a game, a very dangerous one since it involved human life, I decided to play and take the drugs.
(07:48):
As I got closer to the window, I felt like I was losing myself. Will I be completely zoned out after these drugs? Will I forget what's going on? Will I keep trying so hard? Will I not want to try anymore? And there I was. It was my turn. The nurse handed me a cup with two pills inside. I swallowed, and that was it.
(08:09):
As I lay in my bed with the drug slowly entering my bloodstream, I couldn't get to sleep. I thought about how strange it was that no one wanted to examine why I coped with self-injury. No one asked about my past and the feelings that brought it on. They focused so much on, "My roommate ate my food, so I cut my arm." What a dumbed down version of the story. No one was curious enough to dig deeper and help me discover why I was scarred.
(08:35):
I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to explain the feelings I have when my brain tells me to cope with self-injury. It's so hard to explain with simple words. It's something I just feel. I don't intellectualize it. But I try to think of an example. First, imagine that a typical person has an event come into their head. Maybe they learned they got into college or had a fight with a friend. These events would register in the brain and the brain would send these events to the heart to interpret the proper emotion to feel. The heart would tell the brain what to feel, and with the brain and heart aligned, that person would go through the proper emotion for each event.
(09:14):
In my case, imagine one of those same events occurred. My brain knows I need to feel something, so it sends it down to my heart. But my heart is not there. My organs are not there. My body is an empty shell, so the event just bounces around, desperate to get resolved.
(09:32):
After a while, my brain realizes it hasn't heard from my heart about what emotion to feel. Then my brain starts to go into overdrive, trying to figure out on its own what to do about the event. But my brain doesn't know how to determine the emotion on its own. What my brain does know is this. When I see a cut on the body, I instantly feel pain in that area; so my brain, knowing it needs to tell me how to feel about the event, tells me to cut my arm to feel emotion. So I cut, and I feel pain in that one area. For good and bad events, this is the process every time my brain needs me to feel. After my brain shut down my heart years ago, it never went back. But where did my heart go? Why is my body out of sync? Why has this misalignment happened?
 
Beth Demme (10:23):
This is super helpful to me. And I remember even reading this the first time that you let me read the book, and I remember going, "Oh, that's what NSSI is about, this disconnect between heart and brain. And knowing that you're feeling something but not knowing why, and wanting to be able to go, "Oh, this is why I feel." This is really helpful the way that you described this.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:49):
Yeah. This was something that I had written in... Well, it's something I really had tried to figure out. Obviously, I figured this stuff out way after the hospital.
 
Beth Demme (10:59):
Right, right, right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:01):
And I really tried to figure out where to insert this in the book. As it's reading back, I'm remembering, oh, trying to bounce around where to put this and how to explain it, because it just... And then, I was like, "Is it weird putting it during the hospital?" But I realized it could be something... It was something I was processing and it just kind of worked. I thought it worked in this area.
(11:21):
But yeah, it was something I really wanted to try to dig in, because I know on the surface if you haven't experienced anything like this, these feelings, that it's probably almost impossible to understand what that's like. I have a friend that's transgender, and I just can never... I'll never fully understand what that is like, because I've never felt like I was in the wrong body. You know?
 
Beth Demme (11:48):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:48):
And so, I'm trying to be respectful, but also wanting to talk to my friend to try to understand what that must be like and what I could do to help and be supportive and things like that. So I think that was what I was trying to get across with this, was what it's like to deal with self-injury.
 
Beth Demme (12:10):
I know that as we go on, you're going to explore what caused the disconnect and what caused your heart to shut down, why your brain shut your heart down. But I wonder as we're sitting here today if you feel like heart and mind are both aligned or in sync or at work?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:33):
Yes. As we sit today, I would say definitely heart, brain, everything is aligned. But that's still fairly recent in my life, which is still kind of strange to think about. A lot of this recovery process happened in stages, and so it wasn't I learned everything right away. Especially after the hospital, I didn't learn anything. I was just a shell of a person. So it was a very long process, which is what the next chapters are about. But I think it's probably been, I want to say probably it's been maybe five years since this alignment and this realization came together. It was part of going through Celebrate Recovery, working with my psychologist, and also I had a sponsor that I met with fairly regularly that this went through. And then, writing this book was also part of kind of that process and realization of everything.
(13:31):
But I would say yes, I do feel aligned now, which is pretty cool. I don't feel like I have everything figured out. I don't feel like I'm a perfect functioning human in every respect at all, but it is interesting. I am in a new relationship. We've talked about that in the past. And I'm definitely seeing things that I would have done differently in the past, like unhealthy in the past. I'm doing healthy. We had a disagreement about something, and my natural instinct was to shut down and not talk.
 
Beth Demme (14:08):
Yeah, yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:08):
But I didn't do that, and I continued to talk and worked through the discomfort and worked through all of that and used communication and didn't just let it shut me down, because I've done that. I've done shut down. I've done ignore. I'm not doing that anymore. And so, it's definitely interesting to be in a relationship when I am fully aware of my emotions and feel connected to them. I don't like emotions and I don't love communicating. I don't love all of those things, just to be clear. I need to be connected with my emotions, but I don't love it. But I know I need it because I've done the other thing and I'm not going back. So all connected, not perfect, but definitely aligned better than ever. How about you, Beth? Are you in alignment?
 
Beth Demme (15:03):
I think for the most part I'm aligned. I definitely have realized that when I get overwhelmed, I do shut down parts of myself, I would say for the sake of survival, but it's really just a coping mechanism.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:19):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (15:20):
And I have to be intentional about circling back and turning those parts back on.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:25):
Yes.
 
Beth Demme (15:26):
You know?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:26):
For sure.
 
Beth Demme (15:27):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:27):
I definitely know the feeling of that. And it's just so easy to just not circle back.
 
Beth Demme (15:32):
It is.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:33):
It's so easy to be like, "Oh, look at all these other things to occupy my time."
 
Beth Demme (15:37):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:37):
"I don't really have time to circle back."
 
Beth Demme (15:39):
I don't have time.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:40):
"As you can see, I can't put it on the schedule because there's just so many other things." I know that feeling. And then, the realization of, "I have to circle back or it's not going to get better, and then it's going to just pile and pile and pile."
 
Beth Demme (15:55):
Yes.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:55):
Especially when you're at the bottom of the pile and you know there's not a lot stacked yet and you're like, "This is probably fine. It's probably fine because I don't have a stack of stuff I've got to deal with, so it's really not going to be a big deal." But then, you know you don't want to keep filing more stuff on that. You just want to deal with it so it's gone.
 
Beth Demme (16:13):
Yeah. What I also have to remind myself of is it's kind of surprising to me each time that it's never as hard as I think it's going to be, right? Because I build it up in my mind as it's going to be this really terribly emotionally draining, time-consuming thing. And really, it doesn't have to be. Because it's not easy and it's not comfortable, it doesn't just happen. I have to make myself do it.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:44):
Yeah.
Audio (16:46):
As I drifted off to sleep, this next part was more dreamlike. Something big and unimaginable must have happened to me long ago that was too big for my heart. My brain took it in and sent it to my heart. My heart told it how to feel, but it was too much for my brain. It was too much for my brain to handle, and it told my heart, "No." It told my heart it would not feel that and it shut her down.
(17:12):
But even with my heart shut down, that childhood event still happened. That event is still inside, unresolved, deep inside my brain. It lives in my subconscious and it very much has an impact on everything I do. So how do I sync them back up? I have to learn what made my brain cut out my heart. What event caused this failed sync to happen?
(17:35):
My brain is not so easily tapped into. It's going to protect me as best it can. It's going to continue to distract me. It's going to continue to give me false readings of my emotions and how to handle them, but there is something bigger than my simple brain. God is always superior to me. He's the one that could open up my brain and show me what I need to know and ultimately realign my brain and heart. But at 20 years old, I was not ready to learn about what really happened in my childhood. I was unaware of the magnitude behind my self-injury coping method. At the time, I thought self-injury was the issue I needed to resolve. Little did I know that when I stopped focusing on self-injury, then the real healing would begin. But that would not come until years later.
 
Beth Demme (18:24):
It's so good. It's so helpful. It's such good clarity and such good self-awareness, and it's really helpful. I think for anybody who knows somebody who uses self-injury as a coping mechanism, it's really helpful to think about it this way.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:39):
Yeah. And I feel like people still look at self-injury as the problem.
 
Beth Demme (18:45):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:45):
And it's not the problem.
 
Beth Demme (18:47):
Right. It's a coping mechanism.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:49):
Yeah. And people don't spend the time and the resources to really dig into that because it's hard, it's painful. And you have to find a medical professional that's even willing to explore all of that as well. A lot of this I explored on my own, but a lot of it I was able to do with my psychologist who was willing to have those conversations with me. But it takes time and it's not like a session or two. I've been seeing my psychologist since '06.
 
Beth Demme (19:19):
A while now.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:20):
A lot of years.
 
Beth Demme (19:20):
Yeah. 17 years.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:22):
A lot of years.
 
Beth Demme (19:24):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:24):
Yeah. I still go. I still have things. This stuff is not really as high priority, but there are still things that happen in my life that trigger something from here, from my past. But I usually recognize it pretty quick and kind of deal with it head on. But also, I was wondering if you were happy about the God part of that. Were you approval of that?
 
Beth Demme (19:51):
I'm happy about the whole thing. I agree that God is always superior to us.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:55):
Yeah. I thought you would like that part.
 
Beth Demme (19:55):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:55):
I was like, "Oh, Beth is going to love it."
 
Beth Demme (19:59):
Yeah. And I do think God is bigger than our simple brains.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:02):
Yep.
 
Beth Demme (20:03):
And can show us what we need to know and help us be realigned and be in sync, and journeys with us. Even when things are out of sync and really hard, I think God is with us.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:16):
So I got that part right.
 
Beth Demme (20:18):
Check.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:19):
Yes. Pastor approved.
 
Beth Demme (20:22):
Pastor approved, gold star.
Audio (20:26):
The next thing I knew, a nurse woke me up on Wednesday morning by poking and prodding for my blood and temperature. So far, the drugs didn't seem to have a noticeable effect. Around 10:00 AM, I was assigned a social worker. She was the first person who treated me kindly. Care and compassion flowed from her eyes. She didn't pass judgment, even after I shared how I ended up in the hospital. She said it would add positively to my case if I attended group session. She said I would also get to go outside in the session, which I really needed. I had been cooped up like a caged animal way too long.
(21:02):
I headed to group session in the craft room. Once there, I saw stuff everywhere. It looked like elementary students had been in the room. Supplies, paintings, and drawings were sprawled around. It smelled of paint and chemicals. About 20 patients and two workers occupied the room.
 
Beth Demme (21:19):
I was struck that you said that the social worker... First of all, I'm so glad she was kind. But then you said, "She said it would add positively to my case," like you're an inmate and you'd have to do this, oh, good behavior or time served. You're going to get a break on your sentence. And I get the sense that that's really how it felt, that you really felt like you were imprisoned.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:40):
Yeah. And the fact that I was assigned a social worker shows you that this is a whole thing. And also, when I got the social worker, I realized, I was like, "Wait. This is not something that's just going to happen overnight. I'm getting people assigned to me. You're telling me I need to go make nice." And I'm like, "Oh my gosh." Yeah. At this point, I was just like, "Yeah, whatever. I get to go outside." And I like to be in nature.
 
Beth Demme (22:09):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:10):
And I was inside in this cold building for so long and I just was like, "Okay." Yeah, and that's what it was. It was just like for them to write down on a piece of paper, "Went to group session," and then they can check that off and be like, "Okay, look, we did our job."
 
Beth Demme (22:22):
Right. Like, "Compliant."
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:23):
Like, "We fixed her."
 
Beth Demme (22:24):
"She took medicine. She participated in group."
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:27):
Yeah. Check.
 
Beth Demme (22:27):
Check, check.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:27):
Check. Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (22:28):
More gold stars.
Audio (22:31):
One patient was a very tall man I recognized from the day before. When he came to the hospital, he was talking to voices around him. It was pretty scary. He wasn't in control then, but today he looked better. "He must've been given drugs to mellow him out," I thought.
(22:47):
We all sat around a table with a worksheet titled It's Never Too Early or Late to Take 21 Steps to Aging Successfully. I started this painfully elementary exercise. One of the questions, "How often do you touch nature?" Our instructors asked us what it meant to "touch nature." I had already answered a few questions, so I didn't offer my suggestion. About an hour later, everyone had finished with the worksheet. I was about to pull my teeth out from boredom. I received a score of 98%, which was even higher than the instructor's score. "Fabulous. Can we go outside to touch nature now?" I thought.
(23:24):
We did go outside next, but I'm not sure you can even call it outside. We were escorted to a spa patio area surrounded on top and all sides with a chain link fence. I could barely see the outside. I certainly could not "touch nature." The patio contained a basketball hoop, a volleyball net, and a few game balls and bags. I played a game of scoop ball with one of the patients. If nothing else, at least the air was fresh.
(23:50):
After group session, I was really over it. I saw it on the plastic bench in front of the nurse's office to wait for any word on my release. I had taken the drugs and told my story. I had played nice with the group. Now was the time to get my life back. I waited for hours. I was told it would be today, but at that point, I had learned not to trust. Megan had said she would come pick me up as soon as she got the call.
(24:13):
As I waited, I read a Bible that the psychiatric unit pastor had given me. After a while, I looked up, and the dark tall man I recognized from today's group session appeared next to me. When I saw him yesterday, I had been scared because he had clearly been talking to people that were not there. In group, he had talked about voices telling him to do bad things like commit crimes and take drugs. As he approached me today, I tensed up. But I could see a change in him. I saw him and only him. He saw me reading and his face lit up. "Where did you get that Bible?" he asked kindly. "The pastor here gave it to me. I bet he'll give you one too. Just ask." I explained. He seemed excited and went to see how he could talk to the pastor.
(24:58):
As I continued to sit, I thought over the moment I had with that man and kicked myself for not giving him my Bible. Lost in my thoughts, I almost didn't understand when they gave me the good news. I was to be released! I expressed my gratitude calmly and waited for Megan. As I continued to wait, I saw the man walking and realized it was now or never. I walked over to him and handed him the Bible. I told him it was his now. He stared straight into my eyes with tears in his. He took my hands and said, "God bless you." I smiled, and we stood silent for a moment. Then I returned to my bench with tears in my eyes. That was a real human moment I will never forget.
(25:42):
Around 5:00 PM Wednesday, I was released. I signed the forms and received my phone and wallet back. My roommate Megan showed up and I was free in the world again. It was strange to think how quickly my freedom had been taken away. I just wanted the past four days washed away from my memory as if it never happened. I wanted to move forward again. Megan took me to Wendy's where I got a sandwich, Frosty with treats, and a salad. We headed back to our dorm. That was it. It was all over, or so I thought.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:14):
So having lived this, reading this, the end of this feels really rushed to me, which kind of was the intention of it. The intention was kind of for it to feel rushed in the sense of I had all this time, and then instantly I'm like, "It's time to go." And I was like, "What?" And then it's all over.
(26:35):
But actually, when we were outside, I didn't even have this in the book because it didn't really make sense, but as we were outside, there was a group of maybe social work students or students that were in college that were observing us and were supposed to play with us. And so, when I said I was playing scoop ball and stuff, there was students talking and observing us, which was the weirdest thing because I was a college student. And so, I'm seeing these people that are me, but I'm in this facility and they're doing what I was doing just a couple days before. And it was this weirdest thing, and I'm like, "They're observing us, but I'm also talking to them." It was just such a strange place to be.
 
Beth Demme (27:23):
Yeah. Made stranger by the fact that you didn't belong there in the position you were in, so it's like...
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:30):
But they didn't know that.
 
Beth Demme (27:31):
They didn't know that, no.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:32):
Exactly, and so they just see, I don't know what. And it would be interesting actually to hear their thoughts of me and anyone during this time what they thought of me or my situation, because I think everyone thought I was supposed to be there because I was there. No one makes mistakes. Why would someone wrongfully be put in here?
(27:52):
But I definitely wanted to get this part in about the man that I had observed the day before and after he got the drugs, how he was acting like he was doing better. Because that was definitely a profound moment for me. I remember that, having that human moment with him and giving him the Bible and just realizing the connection there.
 
Beth Demme (28:12):
You went from this very dehumanized moment being outside. And I know that you said you were playing scoop ball and that was nice or whatever, but the way you describe it with the chain link being not only on the sides, but even being over you, that sense of a cage and being caged in or being... I don't know. Then the idea of college students being there to observe you.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:34):
Observe, yeah, yeah.
 
Beth Demme (28:34):
Yeah. It makes that feeling even stronger. And then, in the midst of that, or on the heels of that, to be able to have this really human moment one-on-one with somebody who it sounds like, and I think we talked about this before, this was not a place where you belonged. But it might have been a place where other people got some help that they needed, and maybe this man was one of those folks to kind of get his voices under control.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:02):
Well, I think his situation, which is kind of... I don't know his specifically, but I did come to learn a lot of situations where people didn't have money for their medications. He probably was schizophrenic and he didn't have money for his medications. And so, he would be on the streets, not have money for his medication, and then he would do kind of outlandish things, and then he would be sent to this facility. He'd get on the meds, he'd be doing better, and then it was a cycle.
 
Beth Demme (29:31):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:32):
And so, it was a cycle because... And this just goes to show why we need to be able to provide medication for people that need it.
 
Beth Demme (29:40):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:40):
Because the amount of money it would cost to just pay for his meds in the real world versus having him go through a facility like this every time.
 
Beth Demme (29:49):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:50):
And it sounded like there was... And Nicole, she had been there multiple times. And so, it sounds like there were people that would just continuously cycle through here because the system wasn't really set up for success for you to be able to get the help you need and then go and live life. It was like, get the help you need, go, now you need more help, go back, now you need more help, go back.
 
Beth Demme (30:12):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:12):
And there was no exit plan to help you succeed once you're out.
 
Beth Demme (30:16):
Right. Like temporary stabilizing measures over and over again, and that's no quality of life.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:22):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (30:22):
You can't have any quality of life when you're in that situation, I think.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:25):
Well, and this is something that happens a lot in the prison system, is people are just treated like dirt in prison, aren't actually given resources to help them get better when they're in the real world. Then they do something, get back in prison, and it's like this continuous cycle. So as much as this was not prison, you can see some similarities. It's almost a prison of your own mind.
(30:52):
But even the last line, "It was over." Just hearing that line, I feel a sense of peace with that "And it was over." Even though I know it wasn't over, but I literally feel like, "Oh, good. We're done with the hospital. We're done with the hospital." Just me now sitting here, even though it's been how many years, but I'm like, "Oh, yes, I'm back home."
(31:15):
And I remember that feeling of, "I can breathe now." And going to Wendy's, which I never went to Wendy's, but it was like... And they had this... This was years ago, but they had a sandwich. They don't have them anymore, but it was actual sandwich, like a turkey sandwich or something.
 
Beth Demme (31:33):
Oh, not just a burger?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:33):
It was really good. Yeah, it was really good. It was an actual sandwich. And I never really got Frostys that much, but I...
 
Beth Demme (31:40):
You treated yourself. Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:42):
Well, no. I don't love ice cream, and so that's why I don't usually get it. But I do like ice cream if it's loaded with treats.
 
Beth Demme (31:49):
Okay.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:49):
If it's more the toppings than the ice cream, then I'm good with it.
 
Beth Demme (31:52):
You're in it for the toppings. I get it. I get it.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:54):
Yeah. So it's just the detail of that, I was just like, "Yeah, okay. Sounds right, yeah."
 
Beth Demme (32:00):
It's interesting how you say, "I just wanted the past four days washed away from my memory as if they never happened." That's an interesting comment after what we've been talking about, about how sometimes we do want to just live in denial or we want to just pretend like we don't have issues that we need to work on or whatever. "It would be so much easier if I just never thought about this again," and yet that's not how our minds work.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:26):
That's not how our minds and our bodies work.
 
Beth Demme (32:28):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:28):
Because it doesn't just go away. I know. And that's something so... Four days, in a sense, seems like nothing. It's like, "I could do anything for four days."
 
Beth Demme (32:38):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:38):
"What do you mean?" I can read this and I can understand what another person could think, like, "It was four days of your life."
 
Beth Demme (32:45):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:45):
"Get the freak over it." I can understand that. But as we'll learn in the next chapters, it was five years of my life that I was completely out of touch with reality and didn't realize that every day I was getting more depressed and more depressed because of those four days, because of four days. Four days affected the next five years of my life in a way that I couldn't even comprehend.
 
Beth Demme (33:11):
So when you had that thought of, "Oh, I can give him my Bible. I don't actually need to keep this." And you went over and you had that moment with him, that real human moment, have there been other times in your life where that's happened? Because I can think of... I was trying to think of when in my life it's happened, and there have been a couple of times when people were... Actually, when people are begging on the side of the street, but I'm able to stop and have a moment of conversation and recognize their humanity. And those moments definitely have stayed with me, so I feel like I can relate to this experience that you had with him, where in a very dehumanized situation, you tapped into your humanity and recognized his humanity.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:01):
And there was little moments. There were other moments that happened in the hospital like talking to people and things like that.
 
Beth Demme (34:06):
Yeah. Yeah. I think that it's so easy for us to forget that, to forget the humanity of other folks. And I think there's a lot about how our culture works that causes us or gives us permission to dehumanize each other.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:23):
Mm-hmm.
 
Beth Demme (34:23):
And so, I do think that the fact that you brought up this human moment is really important. The theology of it for me would be the image of God is in every person. And so, sometimes it is maybe hard for me to find. It doesn't mean it's not there. So that just makes the dehumanization is also such an affront to my core beliefs.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:53):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (34:53):
And yet, I think that the church is pretty good at doing it. I think the church tends to dehumanize people, and people in the church tend to dehumanize people. And that's such a puzzle to me. I don't know.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:04):
And I think people use the church, use God's name, to dehumanize people.
 
Beth Demme (35:10):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:11):
And I think we're seeing that in the state of Florida right now.
 
Beth Demme (35:14):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:14):
What's happening with our government and what's happening in schools, and what's happening just to anyone that is different in any way, shape, or form.
 
Beth Demme (35:22):
Yes.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:23):
And what's happening. I personally am very distraught about living in Florida right now and what ramifications this is going to have for years and years and years and years to come to our economy and to our way of life. But that's all I've ever known is living in Florida.
 
Beth Demme (35:42):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:43):
But it gives me pause to, "Do I want to live here?"
 
Beth Demme (35:46):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:46):
"Do I want to continue to live here, even though this is the only life I've ever known?"
 
Beth Demme (35:50):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:50):
And I don't want to leave, but am I going to have to leave because of what's happening?
 
Beth Demme (35:56):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:56):
Just because it's...
 
Beth Demme (35:57):
The direction that things are going. You mentioned having a friend who's transgender, and somebody asked me about it the other day actually at church, which I appreciate. I like to have these conversations in the context of church. But the point that I was trying to make with them is, think about what a small percentage of humanity is born transgender. And then, ask yourself the critical question of, "Why are they being picked on?" Right? And part of the reason they're getting picked on is because it's a very small group of people. And so, it's easy to... They don't have any power because they're such a small group of people. So it's easy to target them and to dehumanize them. And I just really lament all the ways that the church is involved in that.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:52):
And the word you just said is people.
 
Beth Demme (36:54):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:55):
They are people.
 
Beth Demme (36:55):
People.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:57):
We are all people.
 
Beth Demme (36:58):
Yes.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:58):
Guess what? We all have that in common. We are people.
 
Beth Demme (37:01):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:01):
And why do we have to point fingers at, "Oh, I don't like this thing about you. I don't like this thing about you. Oh, you're wrong about this." You don't know me. You don't know what's right or wrong for me. You point that finger at yourself. You do you, I'll do me, and let's all be people. And this world is hard enough. Living is hard enough, everyday living is hard enough, and then you try to actively destroy my life and destroy other people's lives? That's not okay.
 
Beth Demme (37:33):
It's not okay.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:34):
We're people. Just be people together. No one's coming for you. No one is coming for your white privilege. You got that. That's right there. Enjoy it. I know you are. Stop trying to throw your junk on me.
 
Beth Demme (37:48):
And I wonder how many of these people who you met in the hospital, Nicole, or this man who you gave the Bible to, how much of their existence involved them being dehumanized, and how much of what led them to be the people they are really involved them being mistreated or abused by someone who was also dehumanized. You know what I mean? It's such a vicious cycle.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:18):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (38:19):
And so, that's the other thing, too. People are like, "Well, there's so much more of it now." And it's like, "Well, it's cyclical. And hurting people hurt people. And so yes, we have a mental health crisis because we haven't dealt with it well."
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:34):
We haven't.
 
Beth Demme (38:35):
And we haven't taken this pause to really humanize people who are humans. But I'm glad you got out of the CRC. That was a good ending to the chapter. Oh, good. Those four days are over.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:53):
Now back to college, also, by the way.
 
Beth Demme (38:56):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:57):
Back into college the next day.
 
Beth Demme (38:59):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:00):
Because this was a Wednesday.
 
Beth Demme (39:02):
Oh, my word.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:02):
So I went to college on Thursday.
 
Beth Demme (39:04):
Yeah. And back to the roommates.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:06):
Exact same roommates.
 
Beth Demme (39:07):
The same roommates.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:07):
Yes.
 
Beth Demme (39:07):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:08):
That didn't change.
 
Beth Demme (39:09):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:09):
So stay tuned for Chapter Seven. It gets something... Good? Bad? You'll have to wait and see.
 
Beth Demme (39:18):
Well, Chapter Seven is called Aftermath, so there is that.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:22):
Well, spoiler alert.
(39:28):
At the end of each episode, we end with questions for reflection. These are questions based on today's show that Beth will read and leave a little pause between for you to answer to yourself, or you can find a PDF on our website.
 
Beth Demme (39:38):
Number one, have you had an experience where you were dehumanized? Number two, can you think of a time when you had what Steph called a real human moment? Number three, reflect on the connection between your heart and brain. Are they in sync? And number four, think about your own coping mechanisms. Are there any that you might need to change?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:05):
The Discovering Our Scars Podcast is produced by Beth Demme and Stephanie Kostopoulos. Thanks for joining us.