Episode Summary
How often does someone else tell you what you “should” do? Whether it’s said with the best of intentions or as a passive-aggressive ploy, Steph and Beth have had enough of it. They explore some of the “shoulds” friends, family, and society have laid on them. From career choices, to family choices, to how they live and spend their free time, they’ve both received a lot of “shoulds” and even been guilty of “shoulding” on themselves. In this honest conversation, Steph and Beth explore how to respond to both internal and external “shoulds” and discern which ones to keep and which ones to delete.
Show Notes
Questions for Reflection
Each episode we offer you a few prompts to think about how that day's conversation applies to you. You might pause the podcast and answer them right then and there, but if you keep a journal (Steph and Beth both do), you might find one of these PDFs useful. Choose the orientation that fits best in your journal.
Podcast Transcript
Beth:
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars Podcast. Steph: Where we have honest conversations about things that make us different. I'm Steph. Beth: And I'm Beth. Steph: I've been in recovery for 13 plus years and recently wrote a book discovering my scars about my mental health struggles, experience in faith. Beth: I'm a lawyer turned pastor who's all about self-awareness and emotional health because I know what it's like to have neither of those things. Steph: Beth and I've been friends for six years, have gone through a recovery program together and when I wanted to start a podcast, she was the only name that came to my mind as my co-host. Beth: I didn't hesitate to say yes because I've learned a lot from honest conversations with Steph over the years. Steph: We value honest conversation and we hope you do too. Beth: That's why we do this and why we want you to be part of what we are discussing today. What is our topic today, Steph? Steph: Today, Beth, we're going to talk about "Don't Should on Yourself!" Beth: You mean like you should teach your kids how to do their own laundry? Steph: You should read more. Beth: You should practice law so you make more money. Steph: You should get a real job. Beth: You should lose weight. Steph: You should be married. Beth: You should declutter Steph: You should have kids. Beth: Hmm. Yeah. That's a lot of shoulding. Steph: Those are the shoulds I get a lot. Beth: That doesn't feel good at all. Steph: It doesn't feel good. No. Beth: No, I don't, I don't want other people to should on me. I mean I should on myself enough. Right. Why do we do that? Steph: That's a good question. That's a good question. That is, um, I don't know why we should, I think it's something like maybe a societal thing where we hear these things like, you're this age, you need to do this, you need to do this, and you need to do this. And we just have those playing in our head. I know I have them playing in my head. I've finally been able to get rid of some of them. Like I should be married. I don't think I should be married. Like just because society tells me I should have 2.4 kids now I don't, and I'm okay with that. Beth: So that's the thing? By the time you're 33, you should be married and have 2.4 kids? Steph: Yes. Beth: Oh okay. Steph: That's what, um, that's what society tells me. Beth: Right. I'm trying to think back. I think I did that. Yeah. I think I did my part Steph: Because you do things correctly. You did your part. Well my, my brother has three kids so it does equal out. Beth: I mean really the law of averages is at work here I think. Steph: I think he took care of it for everybody. Beth: Right. I think in order for anyone to have 2.4 kids, the law of averages has to be at play. Right? Steph: I don't know math. Beth: Has anyone ever actually said that to you though? Like... Steph: All of the things, yeah, all the things I said people have said to my face and every time they say it to my face, I just think, Huh, that doesn't feel good. Beth: Yeah. Steph: Cause it's basically someone telling you what to do. And I think, I don't think anyone likes to be told what to do directly in that, in that kind of sense. You know, if I told you you should read more, you know, you'll be like... Beth: I'll be like, why is she saying that to me? Why does she think I don't-- Steph: But you feel -- Beth: I would turn it internally. I would wonder, what are you seeing in me that you see as the deficiency that makes you think I should be doing something different? Steph: And for me I would take it defensively. Like say it to me. Beth: Steph you, you really should read more. Steph: And see, my initial reaction is like, Arrrrgh, oh no she didn't. Beth: She's going into hulk mode y'all. Steph: So, yeah. My thought is, who are you? Why do you get to tell me what to do? And so I don't hear you may have had the best of intentions, but I just couldn't hear you because you're just telling me what to do and that's not okay. I can't hear you through that. Beth: Should is a weirdly passive statement. Right? Because it's exactly what you're saying at someone telling us what we should do, but in a very passive way. So it's giving direction without giving direction. Steph: Yeah. if I said: you know, Beth, you should read more. Well, I could turn that around and I could say: Beth, I just read this great book. It was so good. I got so much out of it. I even wrote notes. I never do that, but I just got so much out of it. I have it. I'd love for you to read it. If you're interested, you're welcome to borrow it anytime. Beth: I would be like, great, I'll put it on my list of things to read because the truth is I read a lot, a lot, a lot. Steph: Well, maybe that was a bad example for you. Maybe it should be an example for me. I don't read that much. Beth: Okay. So I just read this. Just finished this great book. Steph: What is it called? Beth: That you might actually really like? It's called "Educated" and it's a memoir. Steph: Oh yeah, I saw that. Beth: By Tara Westover. Have you seen this? It was, she was a Gates, um, Fellow like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and it was a pretty amazing story, I think. I bet she had to get over a lot of shoulds. Steph: Hmm. Did she write about shoulds in the book? Beth: I don't remember there being shoulds, but Steph: Well, that would have been a better reference for this podcast. Beth: I just let you down, didn't I? Steph: That's okay. Beth: Well all the other books that I read are books for Seminary. A lot of shoulds in there actually Steph: If it's not Harry Potter... Beth: So I should be reading more books for fun? Steph: I don't want to should on you. That leads us into all the shoulds we hear and all the shoulds we put on ourselves, you know, I should eat better, I should go to church, I should donate money, I should be grateful every day. All of these kinds of things that I put on myself. For me, what I try to do when I realize I'm shoulding on myself (should, should, should )I step back and I think are these shoulds, things I want to do? And a should to me is very passive. It's very much like, this is what I hear, this is what I haven't put a lot of thought into is something I really want. And so when I step back and I say, I should eat better. Well let me sit back. Do I want to eat better? I mean the answer seems very simply, yes. But, but why? And then I sit back and I say, well, I want to be healthy. I want to be healthy for my family, for everything that I want to do in life. So when I've rephrased that is I want to be healthy instead of you should eat better. That is an action that I can actually, a personal action I can take and actually do instead of just get down on myself by saying I should be doing something. Beth: So you transform the “should” into a “want to.” Steph: I take ownership of it and it becomes something that I want, not something that other people want or are putting on me. It's something that becomes mine and I can actually take action behind that. Beth: And sometimes when you think about a should and you try to transform it into want to, what you find is that it isn't something that you necessarily want to do. And that's when you realize, oh, I'm putting this on myself because society says this needs to happen or ought to happen, or I'm doing this to myself because someone else has said, yeah. Steph: I think for me the biggest thing is, you know, society says I should have, I should have kids and I've put a lot of thought into it and a lot of time and realize I don't, I don't wanna have kids. And it's almost like you're saying that, oh, you can't say that you have to want it. Beth: You mean like right now you don't want to have kids or you think... you're sort of a never say never a person. Steph: Correct. Yeah. I don't have a desire, never had a desire to birth kids. I don't like the kid age. I don't like the whole process. Um, and I've just never had the desire for it, but I'm not against adoption potentially in the future. Like an older kid. That's definitely something that I've thought about. So I'm not gonna say I'll never have kids in my life in some capacity. I have nephews and niece in my life, so you know, that's pretty sweet, but I don't have a desire to birth kids and I'm okay with that. Beth: What's the age you want to avoid? Steph: I would go with seven. I would adopt a seven to 11 year old. Beth: Oh, there's a lot of wisdom in that actually Steph: Like five and under? Mm-mm, I didn't enjoy that stage. Although I love watching my nephews and niece at those ages. I'm okay, I can skip those. And that's why I got a dog that was four because she's basically like 28 and human ages. I didn't, I don't even like the puppy and kitty stage. Beth: Spoiler alert. It doesn't work that way with kids. They only just age in human years and not in dog years. So just Steph: You mean, a seven year old is not like 85? Beth: No. Heads up on that. What do you think is behind people thinking you should have children or that you should want to birth children? Where do you think that comes from? Steph: I mean, I think it goes back to what humans do. They create more life. So I don't think it's a, it's a wrong thing. I do think just because I'm a human female doesn't mean I should want, I should want to have kids. I don't, I think there needs to be more, a little bit more thought process behind it. Uh, but there's things that, there's these cliché things that we hear as we're, as we're being raised and a lot of the time we don't put a lot of thought behind them. We just say them or we just think them because that's what it's all how it's always been. But I like to really analyze the why of things before I say them or before I just do them. Just because this is how it's always been done, well that doesn't, that's not okay with me. I need to know why I'm doing it, why I need to live this way. Beth: I think part of it is what you're saying that there's this sort of evolutionary push to always be creating life and to, but I also think part of it is just to cultural and societal that we want other people to make the same decisions that we make because then it validates our decisions Steph: Yeah, that's very true. Beth: Yeah, I would agree with that. Okay. Beth, now, do you have any shoulds that you put on yourself that you have tried to rephrase to want to's? Steph: Yeah, that's a good question. I definitely have been through phases where I have had to dissect that question about: Why am I doing this? What's my real motivation? Am I doing this because I think someone else has an expectation that I'm going to do it or am I doing this because it's really the right thing to do or because it's really the thing that I want to do or the thing that I feel called to do, so definitely have been through some of that. When I was realizing that I was going to be a pastor and I was working through that process. There's a whole process that goes into even understanding that that really is something that you're called to do and that you want to do and that you're gifted to do. And as I was going through that process, there are a lot of shoulds and you have to talk to a lot of people about it and then a lot of people put their expectations on you. And so it was: well at your age you should be a licensed pastor rather than an ordained pastor because ordination takes a long time. Or at your age you should go to seminary because actually then you get to ordination faster. There were all of these and then so then you just get to a point where I have every option available to me actually. When people are saying this is what you should do, they're really just trying to present another option, then it's up to me to work through what I think is the right path. Steph: So people kind of giving you advice by telling you do this. Do this, do this, and then you realize, well I really have to be the one to make this decision because all the options are open to me. Beth: Yeah. And then also looking when people peak, when people give me a should, looking at it and understanding, oh they're saying I should do it the way did it. Steph: Yeah. Beth: Or they're saying that I shouldn't do it the way they did it, you know, kind of kind of discerning what their path has been. Steph: Well you made it brought up a good point. You said shouldn't. So we've been talking about should, but do you think shouldn't is just as bad as a should? Beth: Definitely. Definitely. I have been dealing with a couple of big shouldn'ts in the last couple of years. One is that because I am in graduate school, I've always been someone who is measured myself by my grades always. That was true in elementary school, middle school, high school, undergrad, law school. My grades really, really mattered to me. And when people say things, and 'cause this actually came up in, in Seminary, somebody said, um, we, you know about, they don't put your GPA on your diploma. And I was like, well, actually if you get a high enough GPA, they do because you get a designation like cum laude, or magna cum laude. So yeah, your GPA does matter. And they were like, oh, I never knew that. I was like, right, because you didn't, you know. I'm not always nice. Steph: Wow. Beth: So, uh, so there's been a lot of this from other people and, and also even to myself, you know, you shouldn't measure yourself by your grades. And the way that that becomes a want to is understanding why am I in graduate school? What is my purpose here? And my purpose is not to be graded. My purpose is to learn. My purpose is to acquire knowledge and to engage in critical thinking and to really be educated, not just to be graded. And then another one is that especially as a female pastor, I shouldn't be emotional in the pulpit. That emotion in women is off-putting, which actually is something that I experienced when I practice law too. The law firm I worked at was amazing, amazing, had two really smart, really dynamic female shareholders and I did a lot of work with them on their cases. And we had this one case where it was a dental malpractice case, so we were defending the dentist. He had been accused of doing something wrong in a procedure and the lawyer for the other side was just, he was just a misogynist. I mean there's no other way to really describe it. And so he would act in these really inappropriate ways. He would get really volatile during depositions and he would yell and he would, you know, he would, he would come in late and he would need to leave early and then he would be all over the place while he was there and objecting to everything. And then, see the way a deposition works is they're typing out every word that gets said and then later those transcripts get read back. So whatever gets said, it's like that's what happened. So, although I would be calm, he would say things like, you should stop being hysterical. So then when the transcript transcript is read back, it looks like I was being hysterical. Right? And hysterical actually is a favorite criticism of, of women from men who are like that I have learned. So, um, so yeah. So this idea of you shouldn't be emotional has kind of carried through from career to career to career for me. Steph: You said it's been kind of a running theme in your careers is you shouldn't be emotional in your professional roles. How do you look at that now? Do you think that's good advice? Do you turn it into a want to, have you been emotional and seen a reaction versus not? Beth: I think the way to turn it into a want to, or the way that I have turned it into a one two is to understand that I want to understand my emotions and I hesitate to say that I want to be in control of my emotions 'cause that sounds like someone is shutting down and that's not what I want to convey. But it's more like I want to know why I'm reacting the way I'm reacting so that if someone is getting a rise out of me, I'm aware of it and I don't let it get out of control such that I misrepresent myself. So in that way it becomes a want to. Right? I only now, now when I'm in the pulpit, I, I only want to convey what I'm trying to convey. I just want to communicate what I want to communicate and not let my emotions be a distraction. Steph: Yeah. I completely agree. For me, I realize when I get overly emotional and you know, for me that would be crying and not being able to necessarily control it. When I get that way that is a sign to me that there's something I haven't dealt with. There's something more there that I haven't been able to fully work through and so I would agree with you. I think that's so great to turn that around. Not "Don't get emotional." I don't agree with that statement. I agree with understand your emotions, know where they're coming from and deal with them as they need to be dealt with. Don't just, you know, have a emotional breakdown and then not try to figure out, well maybe there's something there that I need to spend more time with. Beth: That's a really good point that to understand that our emotions are red flags for things, which is maybe why they, they are off-putting to people because it triggers something in them even that they haven't necessarily dealt with. And so unpacking all of that to get to what's really under this should or this shouldn't is really in some ways it's fear, I think when it comes to emotion. Not knowing how to respond, I'm afraid I won't know how to respond or I'm afraid that you're going to lose control of your feelings or you know, whatever is kind of under that under that should or shouldn't. Steph: I've noticed men in particularly seem to get really uncomfortable when women are getting emotional and I think a big part of it is they don't know what to do and what to say and they want to fix it. And I know for me when if someone's crying in front of me, allow them to cry and give them permission to, it's okay. Obviously in a lawyer setting, maybe help them get composure at that moment, but then talk to them and say, hey, let's chat, let's talk. And not just say, you know, "don't do that in the courtroom." Well when you're working probably hours and hours and hours it's going to come out there. Possibly. Beth: Yeah, you do get exhausted and I know it takes a toll too. Was there ever a time when you were at Apple where emotions were an issue or an emotional display was an issue? Steph: Yes, there was definitely times I was a leader and my team was all men and that was definitely a challenge. There were many times where I just wanted a bust out crying and I really held it back. And a lot of the emotions came from a definitely insecurity of well thinking that the men didn't respect me and some didn't so that was accurate. But insecurity because this is the first role I've been a true leader in and these are not all these people like me and they may never like me and that's really hard. And I also had some, some of them say some really mean things about me that I overheard and that was a really painful day when that happened. And I went home, I held it together at work, but I went home and I just cried for hours, probably. And my good friend took me to, um, took me to Sonic to get, uh, to get a limeade 'cause that's my favorite and that, and that helped. I definitely had times where I was like, I gotta keep it together. I gotta keep it together. But the important thing is when I did keep it together at work, the important thing was to go home and to let those out into explore those emotions and to allow them to happen because they're in there and they need to come out. I was able to kind of release them when I got home and process them. Beth: So then it turned from a should into a want to. You shouldn't be emotional at work is maybe what you are telling yourself. But really it became I want to be emotionally healthy at work. Steph: Exactly. Yeah. And I want to understand where these emotions are coming from and deal with them in a proper way. Also, Apple was a super busy place to work and there was people there all the time and it was very, um, I also started to develop some anxiety from working there and I had a couple of anxiety attacks while I was working and that's when I was like, hmm, this might not be the forever place for me. Uh, I, but I can remember walking around on my 15 minute break and just like feeling like there was so much pressure on my chest and I couldn't breathe and yeah, that was no fun. Beth: Is that because people come in with their own anxiety about technology? Steph: Yeah. A lot of people have anxiety about technology because they don't understand it fully. And so they come in instantly with their guard up with their angry face on and they're like, "my phone won't turn on. I can't get it on." And I can understand a phone is important in this day and age a phone is important-- Beth: --and expensive Steph: --to communicate. And expensive, yes. So I understand where they're coming from, but it's a lot to take every single person to take that in and then rephrase that and get them back happy when they leave. And they usually do leave happy. But it was, it was a lot is to just have people come in and storming in and angry. And one of my jobs was, I was in charge of the, the technicians and the trainers. So the technicians is where people come in and they're the most unhappy because their devices not working, but they leave happy. It was a lot, it was a lot of emotional toll to deal with other people's emotions too. And then on, on top of my own. Beth: So earlier when we were kind of going through some of the shoulds that we've heard people say to us, one of the ones that you said is, "you should get a real job." So when you worked at Apple, you had a real job. What about now? Do you have a real job now? Steph: I don't have a traditional job where I go to a location nine to five and work. I don't get a schedule and two weeks in advance telling me when I'm going to be at work and when I'm coming home. So I don't have that type of job like I did when I worked at Apple. Um, even when I worked at the church, it was, it was a traditional job, but it still was um, it was a little different because I didn't get a schedule. I just worked when I worked all the time and when they told me to be there. Um, so now I work for myself, so I set my own hours. I can make as much or as little money as I want because I'm in charge. So I make the amount that I want to make and I'm good with it. But yeah, so my job is not a traditional job and I have heard people say to my face, uh, that I should go back to work for Apple or um, get a traditional job is what they're meaning, but they say, you know, get a real job. Beth: Right. You should get a job where you have a boss. Steph: Well, or a job where I have a ladder to climb up to kind of thing where you know, you start here and you come here is what I'm assuming. I don't know. I don't explore it too much. I hear it and it doesn't do anything to me because I know I have a real job. I am very happy. I am financially where I need to be. So when people say that it's, you know, they can say what they want, if they feel like they have the right to say that to my face, go for it. But I don't. Beth: But the people who have said that to you, have any of them been entrepreneurs or small business owners? Steph: No. Beth: Right. They're projecting onto you the decisions that they've made for themselves. Steph: And a lot of times I notice when people say something to me like you should x, y, and z, they're really telling it to themselves and they're saying that they should be doing that, but they aren't emotionally where they need to be to realize that. And so I hear it and I can, you know, process that and say, okay, and kind of move on. Beth: Have you had to teach people how to talk with you without shoulding on you? And I'm going to rephrase that because you have taught me to talk to you without shoulding on you. So I know that this is something that you've done. Where does, where does this come from? Steph: So the actual don't should on yourself, which sound don't should on yourself. Let's clarify it. Um, Beth: S-h-o-u-l-d Steph: Beth knows how to spell it, yay! So it actually comes from my sponsor. Um, I, you know me and you have been in a program called Celebrate Recovery. And one of the steps of the step-study that we went through is finding a sponsor. My sponsor, I've had my sponsor for six years now and I remember early on she, she would say like, I would say something like, oh, I should be doing x, y, and z. And she said, don't, should on yourself. And when you say that word you think it's something else. So then you're like, what? Oh, that's so good! And she continues to say it. I've actually been able to really rephrase things a lot. I think through them now and I don't, I try really not to use the word should because it does, as much as you know, it's just words, words are impactful and they mean something. In me, they evoke a feeling one way or the other. And so when I am talking to myself, when I'm having those internal conversations, I don't, I try really hard to not should and say I should be doing this and this and that. I just, if I feel like I should coming on, I like try to rephrase it or analyze it right then and there. Why do I think I should be doing this? Beth: And then you've taught people like me how to talk to you without saying, Steph, you know what you should do, you should totally Dah Dah Dah. Steph: Yeah. Cause when people say should to me, I shut down. I'm like, you're probably telling me something really good that you really care about. But it sounds like to me, you're telling me what to do and I'm not okay with that. Obviously I don't go too overboard with it. If people just, a random person says it, I, you know, I thank you and move on. But if it's people that means something in my life, I do try to teach them how I like to be talked to and they can choose to take it or leave it. And they can choose if they, if they love me and care about me, then they, they do try. Like my mom, I work with her and we are together a lot and she will say, you should do x. And I'll be like, um, what? And she'll be like, I mean, um, so I think this would be great and she'll rephrase it and I can hear her better when she doesn't tell me what to do, but she suggests things in a way that I can hear them. And I've done that with a lot of people in my life--just help them rephrase things and teach people how to talk to me. That's how I can hear them. Beth: Right, yeah. Because you want, you want to hear them. Steph: Exactly. Beth: And so you're very direct in your communication style and you never do it. I've never observed you do it in a way that it was in any way mean-spirited. Right. It's always, oh I really want to hear what you're saying and I can't get past that word, so could you say that differently? Yeah, yeah. You have a, you have a nice way of handling it. Steph: I try to explore the intention behind it too. Once you stand back and say a good one is, my mom said you should have a podcast launch party. And I was like, Ugh, I don't want to have a party. What? Why are you telling me what to do? And she rephrased that into, I think it'd be great to get a bunch of friends together that support you and Beth and celebrate the launch of your podcast. And I'm like, oh yeah that sounds like a, yeah, that makes sense. See so just rephrasing. I like that I was able to, I mean it took me a couple of weeks even still to agree to it cause I'm not a party person, but we did it. Beth: We had fun! Steph: We had it and it was great. And we'll put a link to, I wrote a blog post about it. Beth: Yes. Steph: I will put a link to that in the show notes. Beth: And some pictures? Steph: And the pictures-- Beth: We can put the pictures in-- Steph: So that was really good. It was something that I would have not come up with on my own and it was something I needed to hear, but not by you should do this by why don't you bring together people that love you and support you and let's get them all in a room and eat some cake and eat some cookies. Beth: Yes. Ice Cream cake that was so good. Steph: And get them to subscribe to your podcast. Beth: And teach them how to subscribe to the podcast. Steph: Exactly. Beth: And even when you came to me about doing this podcast, right, you didn't say to me, Beth, we should do a podcast like even a "we should" can be be off putting, right? It was, I want to do this. I would like for you to do it with me. This is why. It's a good communication tool, to avoid shoulding on yourself and other people Steph: It helps people understand the intentions behind what you're saying. Beth: Yeah. Steph: Beth, I know we've talked about that. These episodes are just honest conversations and we don't know where they're going to go. We're literally just talking to each other, hoping that they're entertaining enough people to listen to and we're not necessarily going to have a, this is the take home for this episode, but do you, is there a take a takeaway that you can think of for this episode? Beth: For me, the takeaway is that what comes across as a should, whether it's to myself or or from someone else can be transformed into a want to and if it can't be transformed into a want to, it's something I can let go of. That's my takeaway. Do you have a take away Steph? Steph: My takeaway would be the importance of communication and not just putting my thoughts for people on them, but really explaining, almost explaining my heart, explaining where I'm coming from and what I truly want to, why I'm telling someone something. Also not being upset if they don't do the thing that I'm explaining too. That's something that's taken me a long time to realize that I can have all the best intentions, I can share my heart with somebody and that still may not change anything in their life and that's okay. Transition: Steph: This is episode six of our question mark number of episodes. I don't know how many we'll have, but we would love for you to visit us on Apple podcast. Um, it's an App. It's purple on your phone and inside that App you can find our podcast. Hopefully that's where you're listening to us, but there towards the bottom, if you scroll down, there's a little, there's five stars and all you need to do is click that fifth star. Just click it. Do it. I promise you all, literally all you have to do is click the fifth star and you will rate us. That's all you have to do and if you want to do one more thing, that's all you have to do is push the fifth star. If you want to do one more thing right below the stars, you can click writer a review and you are welcome to write a review if you would like to. If you don't, that is okay. There is a review there and it's very cool and I thank you for whoever wrote it. But also if you want to communicate with us, we have a voicemail number that you can call and we actually have a, so we've been asking questions through all six of our episodes. You can call and answer any of the questions so you don't have to answer the question from today. But we will ask a new question today. Our voicemail number is (850) 270-3308 and you are welcome to call that number and answer today's question. Beth: Today's question is: What is your favorite podcast other than Discovering Our Scars? We assume that that's at the top of your list. We're hoping that it is. But what else are you listening to Steph? We're both big podcast fans. It's one of the things that drew us into this idea. So what is your favorite podcast other than this one? Steph: I do listen to ours, but um, I think one of my favorite podcasts is um, Armchair Expert by Dax Shepherd. And he does very good job at having honest conversations. Similar to what we do. He typically talks to celebrities, people that you've heard the name of. Um, they're a little bit long there, about two hour long episodes. So sometimes they're a little long for me, but, um, it's, it's a good show. I enjoy it. Beth: I actually like that one too, but my, my sort of go to one that I love to listen to all the time, and I'm actually, I have my phone in front of me and I'm pulling it up now. It's called the 538 podcast, 538 Politics. And it's because I love politics and I love their viewpoint on it. Um, so it may not be the podcast that's for everyone, but it actually also follows the conversation model. So it's three to four people and they're having a conversation about politics and they're using data and other things, but it's, it's the same conversational model. So I think there might be a thread there of what we both like. Steph: Very cool. Okay. I might check that out. Although politics, ugh. Beth: You should. Steph: I know, right? Beth: Sorry. Yeah, Steph: I love it. I think you'll love it too. Steph: At the end of each episode, we like to end with questions for reflection, and these are questions that refer to today's episode, and you are welcome to answer these for yourself in the car, in your head. We also have a pdf where you can print it out on our website and you can write that Beth: Today's Questions For Reflection: What does society, you know, "they," what do they say you should or shouldn't do? How do you handle it when people should on you? How do you should on yourself? How can you turn your shoulds into want to's? Steph: This has been the Discovering Our Scars podcast. Thanks for joining us. Quotable
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Meet StephMental Health Advocate. Author. Podcast Host. DIYer. Greyhound Mom. 
Meet BethI'm a mom who laughs a lot, mainly at myself. #UMC Pastor, recent Seminary grad, public speaker, blogger, and sometimes lawyer. Learning to #LiveLoved. 
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