E57: Why you not in kitchen? Go make food.

Show Notes

• Steph's YouTube Channel
• The "Don't Should on Yourself" Episode

Questions for Reflection

Each episode we offer you a few prompts to think about how that day's conversation applies to you. Our supporters over at Buy Me a Coffee now have exclusive access to the PDF versions of all our Questions for Reflection. Join us today! 

1. Before this conversation, would you have defined yourself as a feminist? How about now?
2. Has anyone ever directed a sexist comment at you? How did it feel? How did you react?
3. Have you ever felt that you weren’t allowed to like something, or participate in a particular activity, because of your gender? Explore that.
4. In what ways have you seen the world convey the message that a woman needs a man to be “whole” or “complete”?

Transcript

Beth Demme (00:03):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars Podcast.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (00:05):
Where we have honest conversations about things that make us different. I'm Steph.
 
Beth Demme (00:09):
And I'm Beth.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (00:09):
I've been in recovery for 14 years and the author of Discovering My Scars, my memoir about my mental health struggles, experiences, and faith.
 
Beth Demme (00:16):
I'm a lawyer turned pastor who's all about self awareness and emotional health because I know what it's like to have neither of those things.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (00:22):
Beth and I have been friends for years, have gone through a recovery program together, and when I wanted to start a podcast, she was the only name that came to mind as cohost.
 
Beth Demme (00:30):
I didn't hesitate to say yes because I've learned a lot from honest conversations with Steph over the years.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (00:35):
We've value honest conversations and we hope you do, too.
 
Beth Demme (00:38):
That's why we do this, and why we want you to be part of what we're discussing today. On today's show, we're going to have a honest conversation titled Why You Not In Kitchen? Go Make Food.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (00:49):
Then we'll share a slice of life, and the show will close with Questions for Reflection where we'll invite you to reflect on the conversation in your own life.
 
Beth Demme (00:56):
So where does the title of this episode come from? Please enlighten everyone who's listening. Why You Not In Kitchen? Go Make Food.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (01:05):
So this is-
 
Beth Demme (01:05):
Because I'm sure it's said with some curiosity, right?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (01:07):
Yes.
 
Beth Demme (01:08):
Why you not in kitchen?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (01:11):
Well, it is interesting you're doing an accent.
 
Beth Demme (01:13):
I am?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (01:14):
You are doing an accent.
 
Beth Demme (01:14):
Oh, I didn't mean to.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (01:15):
Yes. It's a little oriental?
 
Beth Demme (01:18):
Oh, I didn't mean to. Sorry.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (01:19):
It's sounding like it a little bit. So let's try to do it in just your American way.
 
Beth Demme (01:23):
Why you not in kitchen? Go make food.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (01:26):
Okay. It's a little bit better.
 
Beth Demme (01:28):
That's how it sounds in my head. I don't mean to be offensive with it. Sorry.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (01:31):
No, you're fine. You're fine. This episode, we're basically talking about some of the phrases that we've gotten as women over the years that aren't super helpful to the path of women in this world. And we've talked about this before. I have a do-it-yourself business. I make DIY videos with my mom at motherdaugtherprojects.com. So we're using power tools and we're using things that people will traditionally think of men using. So we tend to get some comments on YouTube about us being female, and we get a lot of comments, "Get back in the kitchen." The first time it was a bigger deal, but now when we get them, I just delete them and move on. I don't allow those on our channel because I don't feel like they help progress a conversation.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (02:28):
But it's funny because we haven't had any, like a ton in a while that I can remember because usually I just delete them and move on. I don't sit there and really think about it. I just delete it, move on, and don't let those people have space in my life. But literally we planned this episode yesterday, and the two days before, we got two kitchen comments. It was just so funny that we had this episode ready. We're about to plan this episode, and then we got these comments.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (02:54):
So this episode was originally titled Get Back In The Kitchen because those are the general terms, but we got this comment... This is that comment, the title of this episode.
 
Beth Demme (03:06):
The title of this episode comes-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (03:07):
Why you not in kitchen? Go make food. So we thought, you know what, that was a comment that is now deleted from our channel. It was in fact on a video where we are using concrete power tools to shave down... So sometimes concrete can shift over time. Your concrete slabs can become unlevel on your sidewalk.
 
Beth Demme (03:26):
Like a tripping hazard.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (03:27):
Exactly. And so we were shaving that down so that it wasn't a tripping hazard in this video. And it's a popular video for us actually. But it's definitely women using some major power tools. So those videos tend to get these kinds of comments on them, and yes, why you not in kitchen? Go make food.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (03:46):
I don't delete all negative comments from the channel. If there is something useful in a comment, I will definitely leave it. Even if it's like something-
 
Beth Demme (03:54):
Like the way you mispronounce the word accessory.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (03:56):
Oh my gosh. Don't even get me started on that. Yes. I leave those comments in there, and then people comment back on those comments saying, "Oh my gosh, I was so annoyed too." People say words wrong. It's okay. You knew what I was saying, right? You knew what I was saying.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (04:14):
Anyways, so I will leave negative comments or things that aren't like great job or something helpful. But things like this, this doesn't help anybody. And if somebody's going to respond to this, you're going to respond in one or two ways. You're going to respond by saying like, "Oh, that's not nice at all. You shouldn't say that," or you're going to be like, "Yeah. They should get back in the kitchen." So it's not going to be a helpful conversation either way. So I don't like to give those kind of people power. So I'll just delete those comments.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (04:42):
But it really goes to this concept where we as women get these kind of comments thrown at us online, in person, in a workspace. And I just want to talk about how it's not okay, how it needs to stop. Even if you think you're joking or say you're joking, it's not okay because it continues to put this image out in the world that is not correct and is not accurate.
 
Beth Demme (05:10):
Because really what's being said when someone is telling you or me to get back in the kitchen, what they're really saying is...
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (05:18):
The women's place is in the kitchen, and that's where you should be.
 
Beth Demme (05:20):
That women have a place, even if they're using the kitchen metaphorically, that women have a place and whatever sphere you're in right now is not a woman's place.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (05:28):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (05:28):
And the implication of that then is that that is a sphere that only men can occupy. That's a job that only a man could do, and I don't really find that to be a very valid view point.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (05:39):
And when we get these comments, what it shows to me is how insecure you are in yourself that you have to try to put me down in such a obvious, simple, easy way. It's cheap shot. And we've also gotten comments... Pretty much I delete them. I don't save them. If I had saved them all, I could go page for page reading them out. But another one I remember we've gotten a couple times was, "There's no way there's not a man behind the camera."
 
Beth Demme (06:07):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (06:08):
Which is interesting because it's almost like a compliment. It's like you are doing so well that there's no way women could do this. It's like a compliment and it's also like, "Women can do anything, you beep."
 
Beth Demme (06:23):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (06:27):
My creator friends, they are on the up and up. They are doing it, especially my women creator friends. They are doing these projects, and they are not hiding anything. Their husbands aren't working on it. And by the way, they don't all have husbands. And I don't have a husband, and that is okay. That does not mean-
 
Beth Demme (06:45):
You're still a whole person even though you're not married? That's so wacky. Really?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (06:49):
I've also gotten comments like, "The young one is hot." Actually, we just got one today-
 
Beth Demme (06:57):
That's not an insult.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (06:58):
But it's not appropriate.
 
Beth Demme (06:59):
It's not appropriate, I agree.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (07:00):
That's what I'm saying, it's like-
 
Beth Demme (07:01):
It's not a compliment, but it's-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (07:02):
It's not appropriate. We just got one today that I'm going to delete, but I was going to show my mom first. It said, "The mom is hot."
 
Beth Demme (07:11):
Go, Vicky.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (07:12):
Yeah, my mom's gotten hit on a couple times in the comments, which either one is not okay. I'm sorry, but don't hit on either of us. That's not what we're here for. That's not our channel. Yeah, so...
 
Beth Demme (07:24):
This is a total bunny trail, but very briefly when Periscope was a thing and it was pretty new, and I was really excited about it. So my son and I decided that we were going to do a mother son on the way to school in the mornings because we both like to laugh. We both have good senses of humor, whatever, and that's how we would spend our drive to school. He was in middle school. So I was like, "We should just put this on Periscope and just see what happens." And we did it until we got that first comment, "Oh, is your mom single?" It was like, "Oh, we're done."
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (07:56):
Yup.
 
Beth Demme (07:57):
We're done. This isn't fun anymore.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (07:59):
Yup. Yup.
 
Beth Demme (08:01):
Internet ruins everything.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (08:02):
Yes. So yeah, actually we've gotten that comment for my mom, if she was single? It's like, you know what, not important. Well, actually on the side of laughing, we've talked a little bit about get back in the kitchen. But another thing that really bothers me that men will say to me in person... I actually haven't had it in video comments because what I'm about to say we do in videos anyways. In person a lot though I'll have men tell me, "Smile."
 
Beth Demme (08:37):
Oh.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (08:38):
"Just smile. Everything's cool, just smile." Okay.
 
Beth Demme (08:43):
Can you imagine a man saying that to a man?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (08:46):
Yes. Or a woman saying it to a man. Can you imagine if you were a man, I'm like, "Aw, sir. You just need to smile a little bit. Could you just smile?" Could you imagine how insane that is? Could you imagine telling a man to smile and how he would react?
 
Beth Demme (09:02):
I definitely can't, especially not, "You're so much prettier when you smile." I just can't.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (09:10):
Yeah, and I have been told many times, especially at work when I used to work at Apple. I can remember specifically being told that because a lot of times I process a lot in my head. And when I'm thinking, I'm thinking and I'm not sitting there smiling at you. And so a lot of times I will be deep in thought, and a man will say, "Smile. Come on, everything's fine." And I'll be like, "What? What?" And then I'll kind of laugh and smile because I'm like so thrown off of what's happening. But inside I'm like really mad at you.
 
Beth Demme (09:41):
Right. It's even the whole idea of the resting B face. There's nothing comparable for that with men because if men have a very serious or stoic face, it's like that's strength.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (09:53):
It's acceptable.
 
Beth Demme (09:54):
Yeah, then they're just being strong. But when we do it, we're being unpleasant.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (09:58):
Yeah. I think there's a lot of men, not a lot, but I think there's a segment of men that think that we women are here for them to look at, and we're pretty. And they need something pretty to look at. When we're not smiling, we're not pretty. And we are making them uncomfortable. And they tell us to smile to make them comfortable.
 
Beth Demme (10:16):
Yeah, I think that-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (10:16):
That's not what I'm here for. I'm sorry.
 
Beth Demme (10:18):
Right. I think that there are men who even think that that's how we choose what we wear is because we want men to look at us and validate how we look. And it's like, no. I actually have met very few women in my life who make their clothing decisions based on that. I think that there are women who choose clothes that they know that they look lovely in or gorgeous in or sexy in. But they're doing for how they feel about themselves, not because... They're not orienting their wardrobe decisions around men.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (10:49):
There are certain professions that might orient their wardrobe around men, but that's the certain profession.
 
Beth Demme (10:56):
I just think that this idea of gender roles is reinforced in so many subtle ways. TV shows, Facebook posts. I mean-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (11:08):
TV shows is a huge one. It's interesting I've been watching some older movies lately, and by older, I mean like five, 10 years ago. And it's so crazy how inappropriate a lot of the stuff is looking through the lens of today. I always thought they were inappropriate. I was never comfortable with putting people into roles, but that's all we had. So it was like I would just watch them because that's what we had. But looking at them now, it's like, wow. I don't think these kind of things would get made anymore, which I think is a good thing. They were just propelling that story of women and this is what women do, and this is what women like. This is how you are a woman, and this is what defines a woman.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (11:50):
I know growing up my parents allowed me to be who I am, was never like, "You wear dresses, and you do this because you're a girl." I mean, I think my mom did try to get me to wear dresses because she made me dresses and wanted me to wear them. But she learnt quickly that that's not something I enjoy doing, and so for probably two years, I just wore my bike shorts and a big T-shirt and that was my outfit. That was my go-to, and my little Mickey hat. And my mom realized, "Okay. I don't choose what she wears anymore. She just chooses, and I will let her do what she wants to."
 
Beth Demme (12:25):
That's right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (12:25):
But even though my parents were like, "Be you, do you," that kind of thing, I still remember societally knowing that these are the things girls do. These are things boys do. And I can't do too many of the boys things because I just can't. I'm a girl, and those are things I can't do. I mean, something so simple was growing up, my brother would get all these really cool Lego sets, and he would get the spaceships. And he'd get the pirate ship. I remember them. He won't let me touch them. And I would get the pink Legos, the girl Legos. It was pretty much my grandparents buying them for me because we didn't have a lot of money, so that's the only way we got Lego sets.
 
Beth Demme (13:02):
They just wanted to buy something that they thought you would like. They weren't trying to impose a gender role on you I would think. But they were just like, "Oh well, this is for the girls, and this is for the boys and that's how it's marketed. So that's what we'll buy."
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (13:13):
But I always really wanted the cool Lego sets that my brother had. So when I was actually in high school, ninth grade, my brother was off into the military, and I was like the only kid at home. I don't know what came over me, but I finally asked my mom, I said, "Can I get a space ship Lego set?" And she was like, "Sure." And I was like, "Really?" She was like, "Yeah, sure." So I bought the space shuttle, and I still have it. It's not together, but I still have the pieces. And I bought the space shuttle. It made all these sounds, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, I never had Lego set that made sounds before." You put batteries in it, and it was so cool. And then that was right around where the new Star Wars, the ones we don't talk about, but the-
 
Beth Demme (13:57):
Episode one, two, and three.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (13:58):
Yes. Those movies came out, and so they had a ton of Star Wars Lego sets, and I was like, "Can I get these?" She was like, "Sure."
 
Beth Demme (14:05):
She didn't see that in a gendered way at all. Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (14:07):
But I felt so much freedom that I could get the boy Lego sets. What's nice is actually Lego has really changed their philosophy on marketing things like that, and they really market... They still have very traditional girl Lego sets. Their Friends Lego sets.
 
Beth Demme (14:24):
Which a boy could play with.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (14:26):
Exactly, yes. But they market to everyone, and they also have learned it's important to market to adults because we got money and we're buying your sets. So they're marketing to everyone, and they actually are being very successful now with all of that. And I still love my Lego sets. You know I have a Lego room in my house. So something so simple that I saw as a kid, like I want these things, but I can't have them because I'm a girl and girls don't do those things. My parents didn't even put on me but something that society kind of put on me because of everything I saw, because of TV, because of... And my grandparents bought me these ones because they thought these are what girls like. So they bought me them.
 
Beth Demme (15:05):
And then I think there can be a backlash against that where instead of it being that we as women can choose who we are and where are place is, then it's like, "Well, now if I choose to be in the kitchen, I'm saying that I'm less than because that's the role that someone else has put me into it." And it's like, no. That is a valid place to choose to be as made evident by the number of male chefs that are so famous and well known. The kitchen is a fine place for men and/or women. I don't mean to be overly binary about it, but that's the conversation we're having.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (15:43):
Yeah. I agree. I don't think there's anything wrong with a woman that chooses to make dinner and be in the kitchen. Nothing wrong with that. And that's also part of it is my whole point is let us choose where we gravitate towards. Also, it's interesting because I have two nephews and a niece, and it's been interesting to watch them grow up because the boys really gravitate towards the cars. And I don't see them being forced on them. They just gravitate towards those things that you would more associate with boys, and my niece, obsessed with Frozen. Anything Frozen, anything Elsa, she loves, which is very that's what you would expect. But she also will play with the Lego sets that the boys are more like interested in. So I see. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I just think it's important to let all genders know, let all spectrums know that they are free to explore and see what they're interested in.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (16:41):
And the thing that you are interested in doesn't define your gender. If you like cars, that does not define your gender. I like Lego. I like power tools. I like computers.
 
Beth Demme (16:52):
TV production.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (16:53):
TV production. And I am fully female and I fully love being female. And I would not want to be any other gender.
 
Beth Demme (17:01):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (17:02):
I can be all of that and female, and I don't feel less than.
 
Beth Demme (17:06):
Yeah. I mean, I think that's so important because if we're saying only girls are interested in princesses and in sewing or in choosing fabrics. I'm trying to think of really traditional home ec-y kind of things. Then what we're saying is if you are a boy and you're interested in those things, you must be confused about your gender. No. You actually could just be a human and be interested in those things. So it gets to a destructive place.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (17:36):
Yeah. And I'm remember in high school I really wanted to take shop class, but there was nothing like that. Is there anything at that school now?
 
Beth Demme (17:44):
No. They don't have a shop class at all.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (17:46):
That's literally why I ended up in TV production because I wanted something, an outlet, something. So I ended up with TV production, which changed my life. It was great. But I really wanted to take a shop class. I always to use power tools or learn to use them because growing up we had power tools but not a lot because again, we didn't have a lot of money. So we had like a drill that wasn't great, and I always got frustrated because we lost the chuck key. If you know what a chuck key, yes.
 
Beth Demme (18:11):
You can't change the bit.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (18:12):
Yes. It's like, "Ah, what do I do?" So I always wanted to be able to be exposed to that, and I never was. I never could really get fully exposed to that. And that's when when I bought my house and started working our projects, we started buying power tools, and that was my first real exposure to a lot of different tools was me just like, "Okay. I can't get any other exposure. I'm going to buy them, and I'm going to do stuff with them." And I so love them. They're so much power and freedom in having the right tool for the job, and that's something I've actually had a couple female friends that will need like something cut. A piece of wood cut, and they'll, "Can you do that for me?" I was like, "Sure." So I'll have them come over, and I'll do one. And I'll show them how it's done, and then I'll say, "Okay. You do the next." "Me? I can use the tool?" "Yeah. I just showed you how to do it. Yeah, you do it." They'll use it, and just the empowerment I see on their face, it's like something I've never experienced. In these women, it's the first time they've had this experience with a power tool.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (19:17):
So for me, it's so cool to be able to help them experience that. But then it's also telling, it's also showing me. It's like women aren't even exposed to these things and have no idea, and that's the thing is a lot of times you don't see women using power tools. And they're like, "Oh. My husband does that," or, "I don't know how to do that." Because they've never been given the opportunity or told they even can.
 
Beth Demme (19:41):
Yeah, that's so crazy to me because when I was growing up, my dad was a woodworker. That was his hobby. He made furniture and all sorts of things, and he wanted me to be in the shop with him. He wanted to teach me how to use the belt sander. He wanted me to know how to get the right finish so that the stain would go on just right. That was a hobby of his, and he wanted me to spend time with him. So he wanted me to be involved in his hobby. And I have seen that with my own husband and our daughter. When she was really into American Girl doll, they built a closet for her American Girl dolls. They were in the garage, and they drew it out together. And they used the tools together and they built it. There's no gendering around the use of tools, but I totally hear what you're saying that that does happen. And it's like we want to keep women from something just because they're women. That is so antiquated. It's such a strange concept.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (20:40):
Well, something that is cool that I've noticed in my life is my nephews and my niece, if they need something built or something made, they come to me and my mom. They come to us because they know that we have the tools and we know how to do it. And that's so cool because they're growing up in a world where they don't see those gender roles. They see no, yeah, my aunt and my Oma, they're the ones that we will go and do that.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (21:08):
So I'm hoping that women feel empowered to try things, and I'm not saying every woman go get a power tool. You're going to love it. It's going to be the best thing. It's going to change your life. It may. And I would say if your husbands have power tools, ask them. "Hey, can I help you make a project? Can you show me how to do this?"
 
Beth Demme (21:28):
If you want to. Don't stay away from it just because of your gender.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (21:31):
Yeah, exactly. And ask and push for it and say, "I want to..." Because I've actually been around some men where they make it just too boring and too long and don't actually give me the opportunity because that's part of it is a lot of people will want to explain and over-explain and show and show and show but not actually give the person a full opportunity to do it. And then you're just bored. And then you're just like, "Well, yeah. Why would I ever want to do this?" And you might over complicate it. It's like let's not over complicate it. Safety gear, safety first. This is how you use it. This is where you put your hands. Not under the blade, and then we move on.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (22:09):
And the easiest tool, if you want to start with an easy power tool that is powerful, a miter saw. My favorite. That's where we started. I love it. It's very controlled and it's super powerful.
 
Beth Demme (22:21):
So Steph, do you consider yourself a feminist?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (22:24):
Interesting enough, I for the majority of my life would not have called myself a feminist because when I hear the word feminist and see it in media and people say they're a feminist, I associate with these very angry, loud women. And they are just fighting men. And I'm like, "Well, I don't have a problem with men. They're-"
 
Beth Demme (22:51):
You're not anti-man.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (22:52):
No. They have place in this world just like women have a place in this world. And I believe in men and women having equal places in this world. And I think that is God made man and woman, not just man. Why are there two genders if the man is supposed to control everything? I know people can debate the Bible all they want, but I believe we are meant to be equal. And we are meant to compliment each other. I think we are better when we are all equal and working together. I don't think the world needs to be just women. I don't think the world needs to be just men. There's a reason why there is two genders. Beth.
 
Beth Demme (23:32):
Or maybe God created gender as a spectrum. I have no hard and fast answers on this. I'm just saying. Anybody who's listening, you might want to read the work of Steve Harper. He's done some great work on this where he explains God created day and night, and yet we don't experience day as only bright sunlight and absolute darkness. There's a spectrum in the day and night.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (23:56):
You're saying there is a spectrum of gender? Are you saying I'm wrong with saying there's two genders?
 
Beth Demme (24:02):
Well, you also said that the two genders were made to complement each other, which sometimes manifests itself in something called complementarianism, which is exactly what we're speaking against. So we're talking about egalitarianism. That men and women are equal, and that our gender is not defined by what our interests are. It's not a subject that I'm well versed and fond to have a full conversation on it. But I just want to be sensitive to the reality that we have a growing understanding about the spectrum of gender.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (24:40):
Okay. So what I said was wrong is what I took from that. Okay, great. You heard it here, folks. Don't listen to, Steph. Listen to Beth.
 
Beth Demme (24:47):
That's not what I'm saying.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (24:49):
So what word would you use beyond... If complement each other is wrong, what's the term you would use?
 
Beth Demme (24:55):
I don't think I would define them in relationship to each other at all.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (24:58):
But I don't think the world would be a successful world with just women.
 
Beth Demme (25:02):
I agree.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (25:03):
And I don't think the world would be a successful world with just men.
 
Beth Demme (25:05):
I agree.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (25:06):
I think you need that balance of man and woman. I mean, the balance can be more women than men. I'm fine with that. I'm fine with that.
 
Beth Demme (25:12):
I don't know why there needs to be balance. I'm not sure about that part. I agree-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (25:18):
Well, do you agree that the world is unbalanced now with men in more higher positions, in more leadership roles?
 
Beth Demme (25:26):
Yes, I would agree that most of the world is unnecessarily patriarchal.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (25:30):
And do you think we're in a great place as a world?
 
Beth Demme (25:33):
The world as a whole, I think it needs some work.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (25:36):
Just to reiterate today's date is October 30th.
 
Beth Demme (25:40):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (25:41):
We don't know where we are in the world yet. I think this will come up-
 
Beth Demme (25:44):
Pre-election.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (25:44):
This will come out after the election I think. Yeah. So just know we maybe living in a-
 
Beth Demme (25:49):
Post-utopia.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (25:50):
We don't know where we... We don't know.
 
Beth Demme (25:51):
A dystopian. We don't know.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (25:53):
You just said you think men are balanced... There's not a balance. There's more men in these places, and you don't think we're in the greatest place in the world. So what I'm saying is getting more women into leadership roles, getting more women into these places. I don't know. It's never happened. So we don't know if the world would be better. In my mind, it will be better.
 
Beth Demme (26:14):
Yeah, I agree. I heard this morning that there are about 300 women running for Congress in this election cycle, and 115 of them are women of color. I think that's very exciting, and it's both parties. It's not like all the women of color are Democrats. That's not at all true. So I think that's a good thing.
 
Beth Demme (26:33):
Well, I asked you if you considered yourself a feminist because I think that that word gets lobbed around as an insult.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (26:40):
Yes. And though I wanted to actually define what a feminist is. And I don't think I finished that statement. I am a feminist.
 
Beth Demme (26:46):
Oh, okay.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (26:48):
And are you a feminist, Beth?
 
Beth Demme (26:50):
I am. But like you, I would have not defined myself... I wouldn't have allowed that label to be applied to myself for a long time.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (26:56):
Beth, give me a one sentence definition what a feminist is.
 
Beth Demme (27:01):
A feminist supports gender equality.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (27:04):
Thank you. Yes. I actually recently did research on... Not recently, probably in the last couple years did research on what feminists were because, like I said, I hadn't seen... I had seen the wrong image of what a feminist was and thought, "I don't want to be labeled that way. People are going to hate me if I'm labeled that way. Da-da-da. And think I hate men. Da-da-da." All completely wrong.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (27:27):
Men can be and should be feminist.
 
Beth Demme (27:30):
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (27:31):
That's the other thing is feminist doesn't mean all women are feminist or only women can be feminist. If you believe in gender equality, you're a feminist.
 
Beth Demme (27:41):
Right. If you think that women, when men and women are doing the same job that they should get paid the same wage, you're a feminist.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (27:48):
Yes. You don't have to get a shirt. It's fine. You don't have to actually get the membership card.
 
Beth Demme (27:53):
Right. Just like you don't have to have a man card. You don't have to have a feminist card. This is not a thing.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (27:58):
It's actually not a thing, people. Not a thing at all. But I would agree with you. I would agree that the term feminist is used as an insult for people. And I think it's a term that a lot of men are afraid of, take it as when they see a woman that is not just sit by and let a man say whatever they want or do whatever they want, and a woman's going to stand up and say, "No. I deserve equal pay. I deserve this." Then they will throw that around for a woman, and throw around the same insults we've kind of been talking about over the whole episode and that's not okay, man. It's not okay.
 
Beth Demme (28:37):
Right. There's no sense in which being a feminist means that you want women to be... For me at least, it's not that I want women to be elevated above men. I just don't want women to continue to be subjugated under men. I just equal. I just want to work towards gender equality.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (28:53):
Is your husband a feminist?
 
Beth Demme (28:55):
I think he is.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (28:56):
Have you asked him if he would define himself that way?
 
Beth Demme (28:59):
I don't know if we've had that conversation.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (29:00):
I challenge you to ask, to bring it up to your husband and see what he says.
 
Beth Demme (29:04):
I'll ask him.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (29:05):
And I also challenge any listeners with husbands to ask their husbands as well.
 
Beth Demme (29:09):
And let us know.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (29:10):
And give them the definition.
 
Beth Demme (29:11):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (29:12):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (29:12):
Let us know what they say.
 
Beth Demme (29:14):
So Steph, you're challenging people to ask their husbands, but friend, when are you going to get one of those? I mean, the clock is ticking. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (29:25):
That was a great example of something I wanted to bring up. So thank you so much for that, Beth.
 
Beth Demme (29:30):
I was kidding, by the way, y'all.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (29:33):
That is yet another phrase that is super inappropriate to ask. I think to ask a woman. I've been asked that many times, when I'm going to get married, have a husband, have 3.4 kids. Sorry to bust your bubble, but I don't need a man. I do want a man. So I will say that. I would love to be married one day.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (29:54):
Oh, another thing I wanted to say was for a long time I thought feminists were lesbians. I thought if you were a feminist, you were also lesbian and you hated men.
 
Beth Demme (30:04):
Because you would have such a grudge against men that you would... Yeah. That's not-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (30:09):
The whole stereotype and so untrue. I also thought if you don't like girl things, that you're seen as a lesbian. And I will tell you I had been asked many, many times if I'm a lesbian. I've had many lesbians tell me I'm a lesbian, which is always cool. I've had many try to convince me, "You are. You just don't know it. You're not admitting it to yourself." Well, let's clear the... I don't know if we've talked about it on the podcast.
 
Beth Demme (30:38):
No, I don't think we have.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (30:39):
Currently nor have I ever been a lesbian, and I am fully a female. And lesbians are female too. I don't want to...
 
Beth Demme (30:47):
No, I don't think that's what you were saying. Yeah, yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (30:49):
And I am attracted to men. Yes, nice men. I haven't found the right man yet, but hopefully one day and I will marry that man. But yeah, that's the other thing is I'm of a certain age. I'm 34, and I have been asked countless times...
 
Beth Demme (31:05):
34? You should be married and divorced by now, Steph.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (31:08):
Right? Exactly. I'm actually very interested in divorce. Not being divorced. That was great. No, I'm interested in divorce as a topic, but I know nothing about divorce. I don't really know divorced people, but I do want to do a episode about divorce.
 
Beth Demme (31:23):
Because we're working on resources for that.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (31:25):
Yes. Yeah. I need some resources because I'm so interested in why people get divorced.
 
Beth Demme (31:32):
Nobody gets married thinking they're going to get divorced. Hopefully.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (31:35):
Yeah, I mean, maybe some. But they're like, "Well, put this in for two years, then we'll sign the papers." I don't know. I don't know how it works.
 
Beth Demme (31:42):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (31:43):
Anyways...
 
Beth Demme (31:44):
I can't believe you have people try to convince you that you're a lesbian.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (31:47):
Yes, I had a really good lesbian friend actually when I worked for Apple. We were really good friends. We would hang out all the time. But she was just like, "You're a lesbian. Totally a lesbian."
 
Beth Demme (31:56):
Interesting.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (31:57):
I was like, "I don't even know what that means. What does that..." And I feel like I'm very supportive of all people, and if I was, I would be.
 
Beth Demme (32:06):
It's not a situation where you're repressing your sexuality because you think that you'll be rejected or because you would be rejected by God or by your family or by yourself. It's you know who you are.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (32:17):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (32:17):
Well, if you do get married one day, I hope that I get invited to the wedding. I think that'd be super fun. But in the meantime-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (32:22):
Will you officiate?
 
Beth Demme (32:24):
Sure.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (32:25):
I've also been told I'm going to make an excellent wife one day because of all of my power tool skills. And my husband is just going to be so impressed with me. I've been told that.
 
Beth Demme (32:36):
Well, I definitely think that you'll make an amazing partner for someone one day, for some man some day. I don't know if... I don't know.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (32:41):
You're like, "I don't know what to say. Everything's inappropriate."
 
Beth Demme (32:47):
Everything is wrong.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (32:48):
I do want to say though for those of you that think that I'm going to impress all men, whatever. I will let you know. I have found it's very intimidating to many men, the independence that I have and the skills that I have, and the fact that I own my own house. I have found it to be more of a deterrent. But in the sense that those weren't the right people for me anyways.
 
Beth Demme (33:09):
Yeah. Bottom line, you don't need a man to be whole or complete.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (33:14):
So Beth, I'm curious with you. So growing up, I was telling you kind of about my Lego stuff, my technology. Were there things that you felt when you were growing up that you couldn't participate in that you wanted to because of your gender, or were you just like, "I love Barbie dolls, and I don't want you to tell me that that's right or wrong."
 
Beth Demme (33:34):
I did not like Barbie dolls, and I don't ever remember being told that I couldn't play with something or having something gender based. When I was growing up, my favorite kind of play was, I made up a lot of clubs. And the clubs always had rules, and we always had membership books. I was all about the supplies. I would play school just so that I could have organized paper and organized signs. I would play store, and my dad bought me this gorgeous, incredibly amazing antique cash register. It was giant, and it weighed like 100 pounds or something and put it in the corner of my room so I could play store. But playing store was about partly being the boss. I wanted to be the boss, but also I would make the signs about how much things cost. And then I would figure out the tax and ring it up on this antique cash register. Yeah, that was the way I played.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (34:27):
So you played business woman.
 
Beth Demme (34:28):
I did.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (34:29):
That's awesome.
 
Beth Demme (34:30):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (34:31):
So you are a wife. You are married.
 
Beth Demme (34:33):
Yes, actually we're coming up on our 25th wedding anniversary.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (34:37):
What? When? This year?
 
Beth Demme (34:38):
December. Yeah, this December we'll have number 25.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (34:42):
Wow. So you're probably planning a huge trip to Paris. Right?
 
Beth Demme (34:45):
No trip. Wa-wa-wa. COVID. Before we got married, we created a time capsule. So we're hoping that we can locate this time capsule and open it up for our 25th wedding anniversary because that was the plan.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (34:57):
Do it on the podcast. Do it on the podcast.
 
Beth Demme (34:58):
I don't know. I have to think about what's in there. I mean, in 25 years, we've moved a couple times. And it's like, "What box was that in? Where did it go?" Because neither of us has seen it in...
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (35:11):
25 years.
 
Beth Demme (35:12):
No, we moved 12 years ago. We haven't seen it in 12 years.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (35:14):
Oh, so you moved it with you.
 
Beth Demme (35:15):
Yeah. We hope we moved it with us.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (35:17):
So do you as a woman and a married woman, do you feel like it's important for you to get in the kitchen and make food? Do you feel like that's your place? When you got married, were you like, "Okay. Now I'm going to go to the kitchen."
 
Beth Demme (35:31):
So I would say that there have been different seasons of it in our marriage or in my life. When I was staying home full time with the kids and not working, it was like well, I have time to do that. So I should.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (35:47):
Uh oh.
 
Beth Demme (35:48):
I know, I shoulded on myself.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (35:49):
You shoulded on you.
 
Beth Demme (35:50):
And every once in a while I sort of still get that thought or that urge like, "Oh, this week I'm going to plan some meals." We do eat dinner together as a family every night, but I am really good at ordering food. I'm like the best takeout orderer ever, and that's fine with everybody.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (36:09):
Is it a shared responsibility? Does your husband order food sometimes, or is it expected that you will handle whatever the food items are for the family?
 
Beth Demme (36:18):
It just is a day-to-day thing for us.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (36:20):
So it's shared responsibility.
 
Beth Demme (36:22):
Yeah, it's shared.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (36:23):
But it's not expected that because you're the woman, you do the cleaning and the cooking and the food and that's not an expected thing in your family. And I love your reaction because you're like...
 
Beth Demme (36:36):
Well, I'm just like... We're the worst. So when Hannah was... She was five, and we needed to take her for an evaluation for speech therapy. The speech therapist was showing her pictures of every day objects so that she could name them. And she couldn't name the broom or the mop or the lawn mower.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (36:58):
Why not?
 
Beth Demme (36:59):
Because we've always been in a position to have folks come in and clean and have somebody come and mow our yard.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (37:05):
But she wouldn't have seen them when they did those things?
 
Beth Demme (37:08):
No, because we were not home when they do it because then you're in the way.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (37:10):
Well, that's a whole different episode, Beth. You've taken us to a whole different level. We will write that down of how deprived your children are of... Well-
 
Beth Demme (37:19):
It's really embarrassing.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (37:20):
Poor little rich girl. Yes, we're very sorry. That's a good episode.
 
Beth Demme (37:23):
It's not that. No, it's just it never occurred to me that they didn't know those things.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (37:30):
So it sounds like you are in a healthy relationship with being a woman and being a mom and having a husband. Gold star, Beth.
 
Beth Demme (37:41):
Thanks.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (37:42):
You have failed your children in knowing what a mop is.
 
Beth Demme (37:45):
They know now. They know now.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (37:48):
So do you feel like a complete woman because you're married, Beth?
 
Beth Demme (37:52):
I have been married for way more than half my life. So I can't even conceive of myself without Stephen in my life. I don't know.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (38:01):
Do you feel like you'd be less complete if you didn't have a husband?
 
Beth Demme (38:05):
I think that being married to him has made me a better person in so many ways that I don't know how... I don't know.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (38:14):
When you see a woman that's not married, do you think, "She'd be happier with a husband."
 
Beth Demme (38:19):
No. I don't necessarily think that.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (38:23):
You don't necessarily think that, which means you might think that.
 
Beth Demme (38:26):
Yeah, because I have had single friends express to me how much they would like to be married. So it would only be if they expressed to me that they wanted to be married, then I would be like, "Then I wish for you to be married." I don't think they're less than because they're not married.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (38:43):
I love how you said that. "Then I wish for you to be married." Like you're the genie and you have like a magic... I imagined you with a magic wand.
 
Beth Demme (38:50):
I have a genie. Yes, I have genie. So Steph, have we answered this question Why You Not In Kitchen? Go Make Food.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (38:59):
I choose to spend most of my time in the garage, on the computer editing, working on a project. That's how I choose to spend my time. And if you choose to spend your time making a really nice meal or experimenting with different recipes and things like that and you enjoy that, do that. I support you. I support people doing what they enjoy doing and exploring what they enjoy exploring, and I support...
 
Beth Demme (39:27):
And I support you deleting those kitchen comments off of your DIY channel because it's kind of silly.
 
Beth Demme (39:38):
We have so much fun making this podcast, and we've heard from some of you that you're wondering what is the best way to support us. So we've decided to expand the podcast experience using BuyMeACoffee.com. You can go there and buy us a cup of coffee or for Steph, a cup of tea.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (39:53):
Yup.
 
Beth Demme (39:53):
Or you can actually become a monthly supporter, and that will give you access to PDFs of the Questions for Reflection as well as pictures, outtakes, polls and more.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (40:02):
The kinds of things that we would put on social media if we had a social media channel, but we actually don't for the podcast because we decided from the beginning that we didn't want to add to more white noise in your life. So one of the great things about Buy Me A Coffee is that you'll be able to actually get an email when we post new content. You can go straight there, and you don't have to deal with ads or being bombarded with other content. You see exactly the content you're looking for without a bunch of distractions. We plan to post probably once or twice a week, and we're excited to get your feedback as members on our Buy Me A Coffee page, which we are lovingly calling our BMAC page.
 
Beth Demme (40:34):
BMAC.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (40:36):
BMAC. So you'll be able to find a link in our description to find out more and to sign up.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (40:45):
Slice of life. So we mentioned during the episode that we are pre-November in recording this, and this will be coming out...
 
Beth Demme (40:56):
Yeah, today's the Friday before the Election, and this will release the Friday after the election.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (40:59):
Yes, so don't hold us to whatever might have transpired. It's so weird. It's like thinking, "Oh my gosh. It's weird."
 
Beth Demme (41:06):
Yeah. Things could be really different a week from now.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (41:08):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (41:08):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (41:08):
Maybe we can't even release this episode because... But I do want to say I... Well, it will have already happened when we released this episode, but I am going to Disney World.
 
Beth Demme (41:23):
But Steph, what about COVID?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (41:25):
COVID? Oh, schmobid. So since September, I have been trying to convince my mom... We've been watching YouTubers that do Disney YouTube. Go to Disney. That was elegant. And we've been watching them since June, and we've been hearing all of these YouTubers experiences and really kind of seeing how the parks are. And I've been trying to convince my mom, like, "Look, we can do this safely. Watch these." So she finally was like, "Let's do it." And we are going next week during the election because we already voted. It's been counted. We checked it. But we want to be away and not think or hear anything about the election. We want to be in the happiest place on Earth being the safest that we can be. So we will actually not be doing any rides. We're just going to be walking around Epcot and Animal Kingdom on two different days. And we're going to be socially distanced from people, and we're going to wear our masks obviously the whole time. And we're staying at the Polynesian Resort, and we got a-
 
Beth Demme (42:30):
Nice. Swanky.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (42:32):
We got a crazy deal on it. You'll be hearing this episode after I went on my trip. So I'm hoping it's just as great as I'm imagining. On our next episode, I'll tell you how it went.
 
Beth Demme (42:41):
Yeah. Well, you guys have been taking the pandemic really seriously this whole time. So I know that you'll have all of the-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (42:45):
Not eating indoors. Goodness.
 
Beth Demme (42:48):
Right, right, right. Yeah. Me either. I miss restaurants. I miss the experience of sitting in a restaurant and being waited on since we talked about in this episode how much I like that. So yeah.
 
Beth Demme (43:00):
Well, for my slice of life, this is also sort of relates to this episode and is also sort of election related because on Facebook this week, someone who I am Facebook friends with, they shared a post that someone else had written all about how Senator Harris has slept her way to the top. And it's like unimaginable that a woman could achieve without having slept her way to the top. And it was so disappointing and offensive, and I texted Steph about it. I was like, "This is really..."
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (43:33):
I'm about to respond to this.
 
Beth Demme (43:34):
This is really bothering me. And then I finally decided, "No. You know what, I'm not going to just let this go unchallenged." So I just said, "I think it would be more effective to talk about where Senator Harris stands on the issues than to try to delve into this trope that is not very effective, which is that in order for a woman to have been successful, she must have slept her way to the top."
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (44:00):
Which goes along with this episode of these things that people continue to put on women, and these places that they continue to put women in these little holes. There's no way they can be successful unless they did X, Y, and Z. There's no way that we could do these projects unless there's a man behind the scenes.
 
Beth Demme (44:17):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (44:17):
And we just as a society, as a whole, we have to stop that.
 
Beth Demme (44:21):
Yeah, and the assumption there is that society is set up so that that is the only way that a woman can succeed. If you really believed that, hopefully you would be working to change that because that is crazy.
 
Beth Demme (44:33):
So my slice of life is that I did respond, and from there, the conversation then delved into the issues. And then the original post that was shared got removed. It was just a whole thing. So I not only feel like I have COVID fatigue, I have election fatigue. So I look forward to you coming back from Disney World and whatever the world will look like by the time this episode releases.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (44:59):
And what have you decided to do about social media and all of that?
 
Beth Demme (45:02):
Yeah. I'm going to fast from Twitter. Maybe I should do Facebook too. I don't know. I have to think about this some more. But I tend to really get... I have a well curated Twitter feed, so it's people who think like me. So I tend to get worked up by the stuff that I read on Twitter. So starting on Sunday, I'm going to go on a Twitter fast. I think I'm going to do it for a week. I think I'm going to do it Sunday to Saturday. So seven days.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (45:30):
Okay. And during that time, if you really need to post something, just text it to me.
 
Beth Demme (45:35):
Thanks.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (45:36):
And I will respond however necessary.
 
Beth Demme (45:41):
Thank you.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (45:42):
We want to remind you that we are always excited to get five star reviews on the podcast. It helps other people get notified of our podcast. So you can go to the podcast app that you're on, and you can click on that fifth star and that helps others get to know our podcast.
 
Beth Demme (46:01):
Yeah. We hope you're enjoying the podcast.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (46:05):
Now it's time for Questions for Reflection. These are questions based on today's show that Beth is going to read and leave a little pause between for you to pause and answer, or you can find a PDF of them on our Buy Me A Coffee page.
 
Beth Demme (46:17):
Number one, before this conversation, would you have defined yourself as a feminist? How about now?
 
Beth Demme (46:24):
Number two, has anyone ever directed a sexist comment at you? How did it feel? How did you react?
 
Beth Demme (46:32):
Number three, have you ever felt that you weren't allowed to like something or participate in a particular activity because of your gender? Explore that.
 
Beth Demme (46:42):
Number four, in what ways have you seen the world convey the message that a woman needs a man to be whole or complete?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos  (46:52):
This has been the Discovering Our Scars Podcast. Thank you for joining us.