Show NotesQuestions for Reflection
Each episode we offer you a few prompts to think about how that day's conversation applies to you. You might pause the podcast and answer them right then and there, but if you keep a journal (Steph and Beth both do), you might find one of these PDFs useful. Choose the orientation that fits best in your journal.
Transcript
Beth Demme (00:03):
Welcome to the Discovering our Scars podcast. Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:06): Where we have honest conversations about things that make us different. Beth Demme (00:08): Our mission is to talk about things you might relate to, but that you don't hear being discussed in other places. Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:14): Our hope is that you're encouraged to have honest conversations with people in your own life. I'm Steph. Beth Demme (00:18): And I'm Beth. On today's show, we're going to have an honest conversation titled, Forgive and Forget? Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:25): Then we'll invite you to reflect on the conversation in your own life with questions for reflection. Beth Demme (00:29): And the show will close with slice of life. So stay tuned. So Steph, I'm just going to put this out there. How are you feeling about this episode? Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:37): I'm not excited about this episode, and I don't know why. Because it's been on our list since the very beginning to talk about it, because I think forgiveness is so important. And I think it's complicated, which is maybe why I am hesitating because we actually had this scheduled weeks ago, and then we didn't record it because we had to move something around. Now I'm just like, I want to have a solid conversation about it, and I don't want to focus on the wrong things and I want it to be good and I don't want it to be bad, and so maybe that's why I don't want to record it. Beth Demme (01:13): Okay. Well, maybe we could agree at the outset that if we have this conversation about forgiveness and it's not a great conversation, we could forgive ourselves. Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:23): Oh, my gosh, full circle. We could forgive ourselves for it not being a good episode. That actually is a good point. I think we talk a lot about forgiveness, like forgiving other people for things, or having people offer forgiveness for things they've done. I think one of the things I started learning about with forgiveness was when we were in Celebrate Recovery together, there's step four is where you run inventory, step four? Part of the inventory is you're writing all the things that you've done to harm somebody, all the things people have done to harm you, and then at the end is to offer amends to those that you've harmed or offer forgiveness for those that have harmed you. And it really helped me look at forgiveness in a different way than I had in the past. Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:09): I've definitely been able to forgive people before, but something I never really looked at is have I forgiven myself? And that's something I never really thought too much about. But when I really thought about it, there was things I needed to forgive myself for. And there's things that I still continue to need to forgive myself for. I mean, I haven't always liked myself and loved myself. And when I really examine that, there's things that I need to forgive myself for having done or doing. And so I think there's that element of forgiveness is forgiving you and coming to love yourself, as we've talked about in a previous episode. Beth Demme (02:50): Actually, really, that's one of my really crystal clear memories from our CR time when we were doing our Step Study. I remember the room where we were, the conference room where we were sitting, and I remember the question coming up in our written materials, because we had homework. And so part of the homework for that week had been what seems like a really simple question, is it easier to forgive others or yourself? And I remember that being an aha moment for me of actually it's much easier for me to forgive other people than to forgive myself. I don't like to make mistakes, and I had come through a season where I felt like I had made a lot of mistakes as a mom and I was really carrying that as a really heavy burden. It was like I said, an aha moment of, "Oh yeah, that's right. We have to forgive ourselves, too." Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:40): So what kinds of things did you forgive yourself for? Beth Demme (03:43): I was really an angry mom and my kids were toddlers. And so I have been able to forgive myself for that by, first of all, not continuing the behavior, doing really intentional work to understand the layers to my anger so that I could resolve what was behind it, what was underneath it. And then as my kids have gotten older talking to them about it, having direct conversations with them to say, "I don't know what you remember, but I remember, and I know that it wasn't okay, and I'm sorry." And being able to actually to receive their forgiveness. They don't really remember it, so maybe forgiveness isn't exactly the right word, but their acknowledgement that that they could hear me, that things didn't go the way that I wanted them to go, and that I had done my work to come to terms with that. Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:33): Do you think you can truly forgive someone if the person that harmed you doesn't acknowledge the harm? Beth Demme (04:39): I think that's a very difficult scenario, but I have a few things to say about it. So I am reminded of a really terrible event that happened more than 10 years ago now, in Pennsylvania, I think. There was a man who went into an Amish school and sent all the boys out and kept the 10 girls, and he actually shot all of them. He killed five of them and wounded the other five. And immediately, the Amish community that was the family to those girls, said, "We are choosing to forgive him." And he killed himself, too. So there was no opportunity for reconciliation or restorative justice or any of that. Beth Demme (05:26): What that taught me is that forgiveness is a choice. Their prayer was that over time that their faith would help them to sustain that choice, right? To to take it from a choice that they made intellectually to a choice that they were really able to make with their hearts. So when someone hasn't acknowledged the harm, I think on some level we can make a choice to let go of it so that the harm doesn't continue, because holding on to the harm produces additional harm. But at the same time, I think if the harm is never acknowledged, then I think that can be a barrier to forgiveness, because in my mind, that's closely related to when people just want to pretend like nothing ever happened. Right? "Well, I'm just going to pretend like this bad thing didn't happen." Beth Demme (06:19): Well, when you do that, then there isn't anything to offer forgiveness for, because you've pretended that it didn't happen, right? So I think you have to acknowledge the harm. So I guess the question is, can you acknowledge it to yourself and for yourself in a way that you can then begin the journey towards forgiveness? I don't know. What do you think? Do you think forgiveness is possible when the harm isn't acknowledged by the one who causes the harm? Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:44): I do, because I've experienced that in my own life. I think forgiveness is a very personal thing, and I don't actually feel like it's tied to someone acknowledging it, because even if someone acknowledges that they harmed you, they are truly never going to know how much that harm affected you. And it's nice when someone acknowledges it, and it's nice when somebody says, "I'm sorry." But, for me, in my experience, that's not when the forgiveness happens. When they say, "I'm sorry for this," and I say, "Oh, I forgive you," I'm not truly going through that process, because it's something very personal. I have to examine the harm and the hurt and have to truly forgive them. Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:29): And forgiveness isn't me saying to them, "I forgive you." I mean, that can come if that's a possibility with whoever it was, but it's really a personal thing. Because I feel like when someone's harmed me, I hold onto that. I'm a connected to that person that harmed me. That connection cannot be broken unless I acknowledge that pain and I forgive them, and then they no longer can control me. This has happened very, very specifically in two, three instances in my life. When I was a baby, I was abused by somebody close in the family, and I didn't learn about it until 10, 12 years ago. No, less than that. It's in my book, you can read about it. I don't remember the dates anymore. Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:17): But when I found out about this, and not from the abuser. When I found out about this, I actually was able to see so many things in my life that were connected to that abuse that I never had realized. And instantly, my life made sense, and instantly, I was able to forgive that person. It just was an instant thing. It was strange how instant. I was like, "I forgive them." And that didn't mean that I wanted to be around that person. It didn't mean I wanted to even talk to that person. It didn't mean that I wanted them back in my life, but it meant that they no longer had that control over me, that was controlling me for my whole life. I had no idea that it was controlling me, because it was this subconscious thing. Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:55): I did finally see that person. I did not bring it up, they did not bring it up with me. That person's never acknowledged the abuse with me. And it would be harmful for me to bring it up to them because (a) they could say, "You're right, that happened, and I'm so sorry." And I wouldn't be satisfied. I still wouldn't be satisfied, because they will never know how much it's devastated my life. And (2), they could say, "That didn't happen. I don't know what you're talking about. You're making that up." [crosstalk 00:09:27] And know that's not going to be helpful for me either. I saw that person once after all of the learning had happened of what had happened, and I haven't seen them since, and I have no desire to have a relationship with them, and have closed that chapter. Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:44): And then the second time it happened, I was abused when I was five by someone different within the close family sphere, and by two people in different scenarios. And that one was harder. When I learned about that, the person that really did the abuse is a... I think the only way to describe them would be a monster. They are a monster. They were then, they are now, they haven't changed. I would never bring up their name, but their name is not in my book. And I will not bring up their name, because I don't know what they could do, what is possible. They are angry. It's not a good person. Beth Demme (10:28): Not to make light of the situation, but there's a reason we don't say the name of he who must not be named. Right? You don't give any... Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:35): Power. Beth Demme (10:35): You don't want to give any power. You don't want to invite that person into your life, and so their name is irrelevant. Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:40): Yeah. So when I learned about that, which was a couple years after I learned about the abuse that happened when I was two, that one was harder. I did not instantly forgive. And I learned about it during Celebrate Recovery through, I think, our first... or no, my second class I took, Step Study. And that one was a lot harder. I had to do a lot of work to forgive the two abusers in that situation. And I thought I had at the time, but I really hadn't. Because when I started writing my book, there was so much anger and resentment and connection to them that I still had. And I had to stop writing my book, and I had to examine that connection I still had to them. And I had to truly forgive, and I have. Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:30): But forgiveness does not mean I forget, does not mean I want to ever be around those monsters again, it means they have no control over me and they have no power in my life. What they did is a heinous thing, and they have to live with that, whatever effect that might have on their life. But they no longer have an effect on my life and have control over it. That's the big marks of forgiveness that I've experienced in my life. Forgiveness is not just big events also. To me, forgiveness can be something small. You looked at me the wrong way, and I might be holding that up. "Wow, you can roll..." What is that called? Beth Demme (12:13): I can cross my eyes. Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:13): Cross your eyes? Beth Demme (12:14): I wanted to look at you the wrong way. Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:15): That was so good. Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:17): Oh, my gosh. There's no forgiveness there. That was amazing. Sorry, it's a podcast. You couldn't see that, but it was pretty cool. Even simple things, if you did something that really bothered me, that's something that I need to acknowledge and work through to make sure that I don't let it fester and grow. And so I think forgiveness is something that is a constant thing, is constantly observing our lives and seeing where do I need to offer forgiveness? Where do I need to ask for forgiveness? Both ways. I don't know what I said the first time. Beth Demme (12:51): So I think some people think... Some people see forgiveness as the response to an apology. But what I hear you saying is that, that isn't necessarily the way that it works, because we actually are in control of who we forgive and who we don't forgive. Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:08): And even if we say the words, "I forgive you," in my experience, for that true forgiveness, I might say it in that moment. When somebody says, "I'm sorry" for something, I think that natural reaction is, "Oh, I forgive you." But in my experience, I don't truly forgive them in that moment when I say it. It's something that happens after I process and really examine the situation. And that's when I actually forgive them and let go of that resentment I might be still holding onto. Beth Demme (13:38): I think part of the value of that is, that when we reflect on our response or our reaction to people, that it actually can generate additional self-awareness and can open up the door to us forgiving ourselves then. Because, I don't know about you, but there have been times in my life when I have overreacted, right? And it was only by really reflecting on it that I was, "Oh wait, I really let that get to me. I really let that hurt me." And that actually was on me, not on them. They weren't in control of my reaction to it. Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:10): Which is part of CR's inventory, is what's the harm, who harmed me, what was my part? Because it's not always cut and dry. In my abuse cases, it was- Group (14:24): Cut and dry. Beth Demme (14:24): Absolutely. Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:25): But it's not always cut and dry. What is your part? What part did you play in this? And I think it wasn't until I went through the Celebrate Recovery inventory that I realized, oh, that's something I don't do. I just go, 'You were mean, you were mean'," and point fingers. But I don't point it back at me, because it's way easier to say they're the problem, then look at me and say, "Wait, what part am I the problem?" Because I don't know about you, I don't like being a problem, but I do know I'm a problem, and I do know that I need to acknowledge it when I am. Beth Demme (15:00): You're not a problem. Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:01): So, Beth, do you think forgiveness maybe happens over time? Would you consider it a journey? Beth Demme (15:06): Yeah, I think you're right. I think it is. Because you can forgive someone and then not realize even that there are layers to it, and that there are layers to the way that the harm has continued to affect you. And so you may have to go back and offer forgiveness again. Not go back to them, but within your own self and within your own work, release it again and again and again until you can really fully and finally release it. Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:32): And I think it's also not... If you've forgiven somebody in your life for one thing, it doesn't excuse them for all the other things. I think- Beth Demme (15:40): Good point. Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:40): ... you have to address every single thing, one at a time. When I go to therapy, there's people that I constantly bring up. There are people I constantly have issues with. Just, we've got to keep discussing it, because it just is. And so I think there might be people in your life that you're just constantly needing to examine and see if you need to forgive them for X, Y, and Z. Beth Demme (16:05): Yeah, I think forgiveness takes time, and it can be the result of other emotional work that we're doing. Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:13): I think sometimes the word forgiveness is thrown around a lot in church, because I think it's in the Bible. Beth Demme (16:17): It is in the Bible quite a lot, actually. Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:19): Page 105, I think. I wonder what's on page 105. Well, it would depend on which Bible. Beth Demme (16:25): Bible. That would be something in the Old Testament. Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:28): If it was the greyhound verse, oh my gosh, that would be amazing. By the way, greyhounds are in the Bible, look it up. Group (16:34): We'll put a link to it. Beth Demme (16:35): Hello? Jinx! Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:39): Did the Bible invent forgiveness? Because I feel like churches talk about it a lot. So it's a big thing with churches. Beth Demme (16:45): Churches do talk about forgiveness a lot, and Jesus talked about forgiveness. Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:50): Churches talk about him a lot, too. Beth Demme (16:51): Yeah, Christian churches talk about Jesus. And there's a point where Peter comes and says, this is in Matthew, Chapter 18, in case anybody's curious, Peter comes and says- Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:02): Are you virtue signaling that you know the verse? Beth Demme (17:06): I don't think that's virtue signaling. Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:08): I don't know, we'll do a whole episode about it. Beth Demme (17:09): I'll think about that. Peter says, "If someone in the church harms me, how many times do I have to forgive them? Do I have to forgive them seven times? And Jesus says, 'Not seven times, but 70 times seven.'" Or 77, depending on which translation you're using. And then Jesus actually goes on to tell a parable about a servant who is forgiven for a debt that's so large, it would bankrupt the kingdom. But then after the servant is forgiven, they refuse to then forgive a very small debt that they were owed. And so that gets talked about a lot in church. This might be too nerdy, but if you're in a church that's using the Revised Common Lectionary, that story is going to come up about two times every three years. So it gets talked about regularly. Because t he central idea in Christian faith is that we are forgiven, that the idea of forgiveness is very important in churches. Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:06): Do you think, not your church, but do you think church in the general term does a good job at explaining forgiveness and sharing how to do forgiveness? Beth Demme (18:18): So I think it's a mixed bag. Because on the one hand, I have experienced in church some rituals that I think are very powerful and beautiful. For example, the church that I grew up in, we would have a confession statement that we would say together every Sunday. And were there people who didn't mean a word they said? Probably, right? But were there also times when it was penetrating to my heart to say, "God, please forgive me for the things that I have done and the things I have left undone." Yeah, there were times that's very powerful. Beth Demme (18:49): That's immediately followed by someone declaring that God wants to forgive you, that God has chosen to forgive you, and then we would pass the peace, which is when you would shake a hand or say, "God bless you", or "Peace be with you," something like that. Now, that ritual's out the window because of COVID. No church is ever going to do that again, right? We're not shaking hands and hugging people or any of that. But it was, to me, a formative experience when I was a kid. So on the one hand, you have things like that, where I think forgiveness is handled in a way that can be really beautiful. On the other hand, I think sometimes churches have used forgiveness as a reason to sweep things under the rug. Beth Demme (19:27): So we've got examples of women who are in abusive marriages, and a pastor would say to them, "Well, you have to forgive him. You have to forgive the person who's abusing you," without ever trying to hold the abuser accountable or without actually trying to tend to the harm that's been done. It's too hard to think about the harm that's been done, we're just going to pretend like it didn't happen. That's not real forgiveness. So I would say in that way, it's a mixed bag. Or, there are plenty of stories out there about how church leaders or priests or pastors have abused people, and the institutional church has tried to sweep that under the rug. And that's definitely not okay. Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:11): Yeah, that's a whole episode right there. Beth Demme (20:14): Yeah. I also think that some of what I hear today is evidence that the church hasn't done forgiveness well. Because I think that we try to say, "Well, things that have happened in the past don't really matter." And we use that to avoid doing the hard work of justice. So it's like, "Well, yeah, bad things have happened, but we just have to move forward." Well, no, we have to... Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:35): We're supposed to offer forgiveness, and we need to forgive and dit, dit, dah. But there's really not concrete ways to do that. I remember growing up thinking, "I know I need to offer forgiveness, but I didn't have the tools to do it." I haven't necessarily seen the church doing a good job at explaining it until I got to Celebrate Recovery, and I thought they had some very good tools that I could understand to help me get to that place. And the inventory was a huge part of the Step Study. Also, we've talked about, Celebrate Recovery before in a episode. We'll put a link to that in the show notes, if you want to know. If we're throwing out terms, you'll understand that a bit better. Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:15): But that was the first place that I experienced, in church, tools to help me learn how to forgive, make amends, all of those things. So to me, those programs are so essential in churches. And Celebrate Recovery is nondenominational. It can be available in any church in Tallahassee, Killearn United Methodist Church is the one that has it locally. But there are Baptist churches and other churches that offer the program. To me, it was eyeopening to have something that gave me tools. Because I didn't feel like I really got those tools in church. These are the messages, we need to do this, that and the other, but how? Beth Demme (21:56): So you mentioned being able to do the inventory, that that was a helpful tool, and being invited to forgive yourself, that was a helpful tool. But you also talk about a tool in your book. And I don't know that this tool comes specifically from Celebrate Recovery or if it might've come somewhere else, but in your book, you talk about writing a letter that you never intend to send? Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:16): Yeah. Well, that comes from therapy. Beth Demme (22:18): Yeah. Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:18): Yeah, my therapist, she recommended this many times, and it's so painfully simple that it annoys me when she says it, because I'm just like... So this actually helped me with forgiving the abusers from when I was five. So what she said is write an angry letter to them. Everything. Just write everything out and burn it. Don't mail it, burn it. And it just seems so painfully simple. I mean, you hear that and just like, "Oh, what is that going to do?" Well, gosh darn, it did really good job. I wrote those letters to each of them, each of the abusers, and then I burned it. Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:55): And it actually happened to be raining a little bit that day, too, so I just got to see the ashes floating up and also the rain coming down. It was very cool. I can remember it. There was this memory and this connection that it's gone. It's out there. So that is a very powerful tool for me, for forgiving somebody. And every time I do it, I feel it was super helpful, but every time getting up to that moment, it's so hard to push myself to do it, because it seems so silly and like, "How is that going to do anything?" Well, I will tell you, in my experience, it does something. She was right. Beth Demme (23:32): Yeah. I have done a similar thing, actually. It was part of a Bible study, and we were told to write down the thing that we were holding onto, the thing that we knew it was harming us to not have forgiven, and then we burned it. And it was very powerful to watch that disintegrate, to watch it become nothing. It definitely helped me release some of the emotion of it. The other thing that I've seen done is to use dissolving paper. Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:59): Oh, yeah. Beth Demme (23:59): Yeah. You could Flash paper and then it would burn, or you could use dissolving paper and it just... Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:05): Or invisible ink. Beth Demme (24:06): Yeah, or invisible ink. Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:07): Yeah. Beth Demme (24:07): But there's something about getting it out that moves us closer to real forgiveness. Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:15): I think that's part forgiveness, too. In recovery in general, is getting the crap out. Just getting it out. A big part of doing that is talking with someone you trust in your life, and just saying those things and just getting it physically out of your body is a really helpful tool. And I think for me, that's what writing and the burning was about was actually getting it out, saying all of those things, and then it's gone. Beth Demme (24:43): And there are levels of harm, and so then there are levels of forgiveness too, right? We've talked some about apology today, but if someone cuts me off in traffic, and then they give me a wave, like, "Oh, sorry," it's immediate. I let go of that. It's no big deal. If they cut me off and they never acknowledge it, then I have to will myself to be, "Well, they must really be in a very terrible situation, and they're on their way to the hospital and I have to just let them go." Right? I have to make up a story in my head to not just carry that aggravation around. So little things like that, it's easier to offer forgiveness for the big harms or the repetitive harms. Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:20): But offering those little forgivenesses when they happen can definitely help us be able to forgive the bigger things, too. Even if you think something is so small and doesn't matter, it's important. Everything, every kind of harm, even things we've done to other people. I had somebody tell me this most ridiculous lie. It was something that I would have never even thought about. I don't even want to explain it, because it was too hard to explain. But it was just this really little white lie. And they came to my house later on that day and they said, "I had to clear my conscious. The thing that I said I didn't do, I did. And I just wanted to tell you, because I had lied before." Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:02): And I was like, "Oh my gosh. Wow." And it was something I didn't even think anything of, but that was important for them to say, "I'm sorry that I lied to you." And I was like, "Well, thank you." First of all, I don't like liars, so I was very proud that they said that. I would've never known they lied, because it was this silly little thing. It helped me look at them even in a whole different way. I was like, "Wow, okay. This shows me that you are someone I can trust and you're trustworthy, and you are a standup person." Beth Demme (26:33): Integrity, a person of integrity. Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:34): Exactly. I was like, "Well, thank you." I don't think I would have said it if I had lied about that. I don't think I would have said that. So good for you. And it also made me think like, Oh, are there things that I've done that I should have been apologizing for? So it's really impactful to even acknowledge those little tiny things that you would never even really think much of. Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:57): And now, it's time for Questions For Reflection. These are questions based on today's show. Beth is going to read them, leave a little pause between, repause the podcast and answering them to yourself, or you can find a PDF on our website, dospod.us. And stay tuned for after for Slice of Life. Number one, do you have any old hurts that you haven't truly been able to forgive? Does it feel like that has power over you? Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:22): Number two, are you able to forgive someone who hasn't acknowledged the harm? If not, are you willing to do it for yourself? Number three, do you find it easier to forgive small things or bigger things? What's been your experience? And number four, has there been a time when you offered an apology and not had it accepted? Were you able to forgive yourself? Did it create a need for you to offer forgiveness? Beth Demme (27:55): So you weren't super feeling that episode as we started, do you feel better about it now that the conversation is over? Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:00): I do. I feel good about it. I don't think I need to forgive myself for that episode. I don't know, we plan these episodes in advance, way in advance, and then we actually plan the episode the day before, with the questions and stuff. And this one we had planned a while... I don't know. I felt like we had kept coming back to this and then not doing it. And then it just felt like... Yeah. I'm glad. It was a good conversation. Beth Demme (28:27): So what have you been up to other than podcast planning and us rearranging episodes? Give us a slice of your life. Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:34): Slice of life. I actually finally... has been seven months now, I think, since the shutdown, since March. I went out of town for the first time. Beth Demme (28:46): What? Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:47): I'd really been itching to get out of my house and leave, but safely. I want to do it safely. So I actually went to Orlando. I have family that just moved into a new house in Orlando, and they needed some ceiling fans installed and some curtain rods, and all of the stuff that you need in a new house. And so I went down and helped with all that. I wore a mask the entire time, which was not super bad. And so to make sure, because they're in Orlando and I'm here, so make sure that we are not sharing germs, and went to Ikea and all these places that I haven't been in forever, but I felt really safe actually. They have a mask ordinance there, so everyone's was wearing a mask. And there was people around, but I didn't feel uncomfortable. I felt good because I was doing something. I like to build things and I like to get things done around the house. Beth Demme (29:36): You like to, like do it yourself? Like DIY? Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:37): I do. Yeah, I do. I know, it's shocking. And I also like to empower other people, so I didn't just do everything for them. I showed them how to do it and helped educate them so that they can do it on their own. Yeah, so that was cool. It was just a couple of days. And my mom stayed home with my dog at my house. Have you done any firsts since the shutdown? Beth Demme (29:57): Yes. Super excited that I went to a restaurant, but we sat outside. Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:02): Oh, good. Beth Demme (30:03): Brunch is my favorite meal. I think it's the best time of the day. Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:05): Me too, yes. Beth Demme (30:06): Totally had been missing brunch. And so my husband was like, "Well, we could go to this place that you like for brunch, because they have outside seating." And I was like, "Oh, that's right. We could sit outside." And so we went and it was really nice. I really enjoyed it. It felt like a big treat, because we're not eating in restaurants. And so to not have to make the food myself or to deal with takeout, which takeout is just not as good, y'all. Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:31): It's not, it's not. Beth Demme (30:31): Just not as good. Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:33): It made me laugh, because I was reading your notes here, and it said you had brunch at Grovestand, and that's not what it's called, which made me laugh. It's Grove Market. I'm pretty sure. Beth Demme (30:42): Oh, is it? Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:42): Yeah. Beth Demme (30:43): The Grove Place. Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:44): The Grove Place, yeah. I was at Grovestand. I don't even know what that means. It has four names. It's a very long title, but it's very good. Beth Demme (30:52): It's very good. If you're ever in Tallahassee and you want to have brunch, look me up. Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:56): Grove Market, I think it's what it's called. Beth Demme (30:57): We'll go sit outside and we'll have brunch. Because it's the best... And their brunch is really good. Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:05): Right before the shutdown, I had brunch. We had brunch. It was the day before I left. Beth Demme (31:12): At Maple Street or something? Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:13): No. It was at that place that has ice cream. Beth Demme (31:15): Lofty Pursuits? Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:16): Yes, yes. We had brunch at Lofty Pursuits. We planned the period episode, and then I went out of town for my event in March. And then we came back, and then we pushed the period episode to weeks later and we did all the COVID episodes. Beth Demme (31:30): Yeah. Gosh, that was so long ago. Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:32): The last time I ate out was at... Beth Demme (31:34): Oh. Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:34): Yeah. Beth Demme (31:35): We mentioned in today's episode that some of the things that we talked about, there's more information about them in your book, Discovery My Scars. So how can people get that if they want to get their hands on a copy? Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:46): It's available at all places that books are sold. You can get it from my website, but you can also get it from Amazon or Books-A-Million or Barnes and Noble, all of the book places. It's in print, audio book and ebook. And I also, I think I mentioned last time, but I am now making some short-form videos from the woods, my favorite woods here in town. And just giving some thoughts about my book and the process and just some off-the-cuff musings in my head. It is heavily edited. So don't worry, it's not like two hours. They're less than five minutes. But we'll put a link to those as well. This has been the Discovering our Scars podcast. Thanks for joining us.
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Meet StephMental Health Advocate. Author. Podcast Host. DIYer. Greyhound Mom. 
Meet BethI'm a mom who laughs a lot, mainly at myself. #UMC Pastor, recent Seminary grad, public speaker, blogger, and sometimes lawyer. Learning to #LiveLoved. 
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