Questions for Reflection
Each episode we offer you a few prompts to think about how that day's conversation applies to you. You might pause the podcast and answer them right then and there, but if you keep a journal (Steph and Beth both do), you might find one of these PDFs useful. Choose the orientation that fits best in your journal.
Beth Demme (00:03):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars Podcast.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:06):
Where we have honest conversations about things that make us different. I'm Steph.
Beth Demme (00:09):
And I'm Beth.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:10):
I've been in recovery for 14 years and am the author of Discovering My Scars, my memoir about my mental health struggles, experiences and faith.
Beth Demme (00:17):
I'm a lawyer, turned pastor who's all about self-awareness and emotional health, because I know what it's like to have neither of those things.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:24):
Beth and I have been friends for years, have gone through a recovery program together. And when I wanted to start a podcast, she was the only name that came to mind as co-host.
Beth Demme (00:31):
I didn't hesitate to say yes because I've learned a lot from honest conversations with Steph over the years.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:37):
We value honest conversations and we hope you do too.
Beth Demme (00:40):
That's why we do this and why we want you to be part of what we're discussing today. On today's show, we're going to have an honest conversation titled, Me F*ing Too.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:51):
Then we'll invite you to reflect on the conversation in your own life with questions for reflection.
Beth Demme (00:56):
And the show will close with Slice of Life. And if you wonder what that is, stay tuned until the end.
Beth Demme (01:01):
So Me F*ing too, Steph.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:04):
Yeah. We know we don't use harsh language in the podcast because I personally don't use it in my own life. I can't speak for Beth.
Beth Demme (01:14):
I'm like a potty mouth all the time-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:16):
Beth Demme (01:16):
No, I'm not.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:18):
What we're talking about is the Me Too movement. That's really what we're going to talk about today. The reason we put that special middle part in there is because I do have experiences with some Me Too things that have happened in my life, and we're going to discuss them a little bit today. So just so you know, nothing too detailed, nothing too graphic or anything like that.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:39):
But we will be talking about Me Too because it's in my opinion is a very important movement that happened way sooner than we actually realized when we were researching this episode.
Beth Demme (01:49):
It was surprising, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:50):
Yeah. I became aware of the Me Too movement, the #MeToo movement in 2017. If you remember back, there was a lot of allegations coming out about rampant sexual abuse that was happening in the Hollywood industry specifically... I'm not going to say his name, you know
Beth Demme (02:09):
You know who we mean.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:10):
Yeah, he's creepy, creepy old disgusting guy. Fill in the blank. Something that happened 2017 was Alyssa Milano, who is an actress, she posted about what was going on and she said... She posted on Twitter, "If you've ever been sexually harassed or sexually abused, just reply to this with #MeToo." And I think we found the stats on it, Beth. How many-
Beth Demme (02:32):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:32):
... replies have there been?
Beth Demme (02:33):
Many tens of thousands.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:35):
Beth Demme (02:36):
I think yesterday when I looked, it was something like over 60,000 replies.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:42):
It was a tough time when this was all coming out because I have experience with it in my life. And any time you hear these hard conversations... When I hear these hard conversations, it does bring me back. But I realized this was a very important moment in history and in time and it needed to be more than a moment. So I feel like there has been change that has happened. I feel like people are more aware, the people that needed to be aware of what was happening to women are more aware and I do see changes happening in places.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:18):
That's what we're gonna chat about. But what we wanted to say was, as we were researching this, we actually found out that the Me Too movement was started in 2006.
Beth Demme (03:26):
Yeah. Started in 2006 by Tarana Burke and there's a great website, we'll put a link to it in our show notes, metoomvmt.org. And we hope that you'll go there and you'll see the resources that they've created and the conversation that they are encouraging, and inspiring, and maintaining. But definitely it came to my attention with the Alyssa Milano tweet and the way that it really took off.
Beth Demme (03:47):
Then for the last three plus years, it has been a movement that has sustained itself because there is that much-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:56):
People affected, women affected by this.
Beth Demme (03:58):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:00):
It's not just women, it's also men that had been affected. There's a lot of stats on the website about it happens to elderly, it happens to children, all of these things. It's a heavy website, I'm not going to lie, but it's really well put together. Tarana Burke actually is still involved with this movement, she's still spearheading it. And I was really excited when I was learning about this. She's actually a black female and running this show.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:22):
And I love the website because there's so much diversity on the website and just all different types of people on there. It was really refreshing and really well designed, so we'll definitely put a link to that.
Beth Demme (04:34):
The Me Too movement is really a movement against sexual harassment and sexual abuse, and it is a movement to inspire women to speak out against it and men too really. But I do think the movement is focused, especially on women to really encourage us to use our voices to speak out against what's happened. And when we were looking into the statistics, they're pretty staggering, I would say. One in four women have experienced rape or attempted rape.
Beth Demme (05:01):
Then we also found an NPR article that reported that 81% of women have been sexually harassed, which brings up a question for me about what is sexual harassment? Because my view of it, I think is narrow. Because when I practiced law, I handled some sexual harassment cases and it has a legal definition of sexual... There is a legal definition of sexual harassment. But I don't think that that's what they meant in this survey when they got to the 81%.
Beth Demme (05:34):
Because then when you look at it like it includes being whistled at, or catcalled, or having inappropriate comments shouted at you. Knowing that, I'm surprised it wasn't 100% honestly. 81% seems like a really startling number until you understand everything that it includes.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:52):
So the stats that you found define sexual harassment, or you are defining sexual harassment by what you know from law?
Beth Demme (06:00):
The stat that NPR reported was 81% of women report having been sexually harassed, but their definition of sexual harassment included-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:09):
Beth Demme (06:10):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:10):
Beth Demme (06:11):
... included catcalls, whistling, and they were partnering with someone else. They didn't do the actual survey.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:16):
Let's paint a picture. So we're talking about like... I think there's a big stereotype of, let's say there's construction workers working, a woman walks by and they whistle, and they holler on because that woman just was walking by, would you consider that a catcall? Is that what you-
Beth Demme (06:34):
Yeah, I think that's the definition. Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:38):
So they're defining that as sexual harassment, which obvious-
Beth Demme (06:40):
They included that in the survey, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:41):
Okay. Which I believe 100% is sexual harassment. Are you in agreeance with that? Are we talking different things?
Beth Demme (06:48):
I think we're talking different things. I would say that that's unwelcome behavior. I don't think that it is behavior that I would want to encourage. If I heard my husband or my son behaving in that way, I'd be really offended and I would take some action. But in my mind, it doesn't rise to the level of harassment. To me, harassment is something that happens repeatedly, and it happens when there is a power dynamic.
Beth Demme (07:14):
There are just other things at play other than an inappropriate comment.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:20):
It sounds like sexual harassment is a spectrum. It can be something as simple as a catcall, can be something intense as every day at work, you're getting inappropriately explicit things said to you by your boss, things like that. So you're saying that you don't find that appropriate, that there's a spectrum of sexual harassment.
Beth Demme (07:41):
I think that when we include random comments by people who are strangers, when we include that in the same category of things as when a hostile workplace has been created for women, I think that we diminish the pain that happens in that hostile workplace. Because it is far exceeds what happens when there is a callous comment or an inappropriate comment by a stranger.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:06):
But is it our job to say to a woman that... Let's say there's a woman that had been... The only incident she's had is she was catcalled, but that had an effect on her for her entire life. Is it for us to say, "Well, that was little. That's not a big deal." Even though in her life, it's a huge deal and it hugely impacted her personality, her choices of where she walks. Why is it for us to say whether that is not intense enough to be considered sexual harassment?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:38):
Here, let me give you another example. Okay. I wrote a book and one of the things the book actually starts with me at a mental hospital. I've talked about it in the book, one of the times I was in a room with my roommate in the hospital, her name was Nicole. We were just chatting and a male patient comes in the room, looks at us, looks right at me, right in my eyes and says, "You want to have sex?"
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:04):
And he's just standing there. I'm frozen. Nicole jumps into action because she'd been there, she knew what to do. She pushed the red button, it was fine. Is that fine? Would you consider that sexual harassment?
Beth Demme (09:17):
I don't think it was okay for him to do that. It is something, but I don't know if it's sexual harassment. Because for me, for my definition, my working definition of sexual harassment, there's more than just commentary between two strangers. There's got to be some power element, it's got to be repetitive. And I'm not saying that I'm right, I'm just saying that when I saw those survey results, it surprised me, the spectrum of things that were included in that definition.
Beth Demme (09:47):
Which then made me wonder about the statistic because like I said, I'm surprised it wasn't 100% since it was that broad.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:55):
It's interesting because I... The only reason... If I was a male, I don't think he would have walked to the room and said that same thing. So he instantly was just saying those words to me because of my gender, because of my sex. And it was sexual in nature, it was completely inappropriate. It froze me, my body shut down. I can still see him standing in front of me, I can see him saying that. I can see the disgusting look on his face, and that's with me.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:25):
That's with me as much as I've talked about, [inaudible 00:10:27] I've written with that, and that's not fair. That's not okay that he can come in my room, can make me feel like I'm trash, I'm worthless. Make me think... I don't know what's going to happen if Nicole hadn't been there. I don't know what would have happened. And the fact that he did that to me, that's not okay. I think anything that is sexual in nature is inappropriate.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:54):
Something that can stay with you for your life and can change the course of your life because of even one word or incidence, even though no touching, no whatever, that's with me. And I believe that's sexual harassment, I believe that's not okay and our culture has to change that. If we don't consider that sexual harassment and we only go with the big stuff, the stuff that we don't even want to say because it's disgusting, that stuff's just going to keep happening.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:22):
The little stuff, it's just going to keep progressing into big stuff. So for me, everything has to stop. Everything has to stop. It's not okay to sexualize somebody, it's not okay to say to somebody those things. It's not okay. I don't think it's any problem calling sexual harassment, a spectrum, saying that it can be something as simple as this, it could be something as major as this. I think it all counts, and I think if it degraded you, if it hurt you, if it's stuck with you, that's harassment and that's not okay.
Beth Demme (11:54):
I still think that what you experienced is different than a woman or a man walking down the street and someone whistling at them. And I think that to say that the impact of being whistled at is the same as the impact of what you experienced in that situation, I think it minimizes what you experienced.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:13):
I don't think it minimizes at all because everyone's experience is their experience, and their feeling in that situation is based on their life experience. So it's not fair... I think it's ignorant of me to say, "That's not a big deal. You being catcalled, that's not a big deal." Because I don't know your life, I don't know what you've experienced, I don't know how that's affecting you.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:34):
Just because I've had really bad things happen to me, that doesn't mean I can say, "You just were catcalled. That's not a big deal." No. If it was a big deal for you, it's a big deal and it's not okay. Simple little things are not okay. That culture has to change that men think that's okay. Because if men think catcalling's okay, then they're going to easily think it's okay to, "Let me massage your shoulders. You look stressed."
Beth Demme (13:01):
Yeah. That drives me crazy. I can't stand that.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:03):
There you go. It's unwanted touching, that's sexual harassment.
Beth Demme (13:08):
It's also battery.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:10):
It's a power mover. It's a power move.
Beth Demme (13:11):
But it's also battery. Unwanted touching in the law is... And that's the definition. So that's what I'm saying where I think there are other words that can be applied or other labels that can be applied. And if being whistled at, let's just stick with that example. If being whistled at creates a problem for a woman, I think it is likely that she has had other experiences beyond that that would probably rise to the level of sexual harassment.
Beth Demme (13:39):
But I hear you and I think you're making a good point that when we let all the little things happen, that then that can be like the seed that grows into the bigger misconduct.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:49):
I can see the point of if that affects... I can see what you're saying. If that affects a woman, then she probably had something else, and that's why. But then I push back on that and we'll say, it might not affect a woman, but then it happens again, and then it happens again, and then something worse happens. Because each time those little things happen, even if you're unconscious of it, it can degrade you just a tiny bit and a tiny bit and a tiny bit.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:14):
Then you get to this place where you just feel like you're not worthy and you're not worth it, and then even worse things happen. So I'm going to stand by my opinion is none of this is okay. All of it can degrade a person. Anytime this happens, anything unwanted in these kinds of capacities is not okay and all levels of sex harassment need to stop and need to be called out. If we want to call it as simple as catcalling, I don't consider that simple, I consider that completely inappropriate and not okay.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:47):
But in my opinion, that all has to stop, and that's all part of the Me Too movement, and I agree with the movement in stopping at all.
Beth Demme (14:55):
Yeah. I agree with stopping it all too. I would hope for different labels.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:59):
When you're talking about simple, to this and this, reminds me of autism, which has nothing to do with sexual harassment, but autism is a scale. There's people that are highly functioning with autism, there's people that can't speak that have autism. I wouldn't tell someone that's highly functioning with autism, "It's fine. You just have a little autism." Or, "I wouldn't even call that autism." No, it's a spectrum, so-
Beth Demme (15:25):
But we say high functioning autism. There is a new label for that. There is a different label for it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:31):
But it's still autism.
Beth Demme (15:32):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:33):
You can define it within. I'm not against defining it... I would say we just did define it, catcalling within sexual harassment. You're defining it within the sexual harassment spectrum. So I would say we're still doing that, we're still... What we just said was saying just as the autism spectrum. So I would not want to change the word from sexual harassment because that is what it is. But we can refer to it as what it is, catcalling or seeing someone down the street.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:00):
We can call it what it is and define it, but I don't think it needs to be taken out of that category.
Beth Demme (16:07):
Maybe my issue is that I wish the survey results have been reported more on a spectrum rather than to say, "81% of women have been sexually harassed." It would have been more instructive to me to understand, are they saying that 81% of women have had a catcall? Or are they saying that 81% of women have worked in a hostile work environment? Or are they saying, 81% of women have, you know, been in a situation where a random stranger came up and said, "You're trash"?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:41):
I would say it doesn't matter, but I hear what you're saying, but in my opinion, I would say it doesn't matter. If 81% of them had catcalled, that's not okay. If 81% had had the hostile work environment, it's not okay. To me, I don't think it's... I've had little, I've had all in between and I don't feel that I'm less heard because of that stat, including all of that.
Beth Demme (17:03):
It matters to me because if 81% of women are reporting that they are working in a hostile work environment, we have a much different task ahead of us than if we're... Then if we've addressed the hostile work environment to the point that we can now address catcalling.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:19):
Oh, I would agree. No, I agree with that. Because that's a whole different stat though. If they're-
Beth Demme (17:24):
That's what I'm asking for.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:26):
Yeah, I would like that stat too.
Beth Demme (17:27):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:28):
Yeah. I would like a stat of specifically workplace.
Beth Demme (17:33):
That's where including too much minimizes the bigger, harder challenges.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:38):
Catcalling can happen at work and I would include that in that stat. If you're being catcalled at work, which could happen.
Beth Demme (17:45):
I guess that's possible. I didn't take it that way. I took it as catcall is something happens between strangers.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:49):
It could happen in families, it could happen anywhere. Stats are what they are. I think these stats are probably even higher than we know. One in four have been raped. That's a staggering statistic. I'm in that stat, so I'm not surprised. Okay. We can always analyze stats all we want, but I think the bigger picture is really talking about our experience, our experience with this. So I do in my book, I actually talk about some sexual harassment that happened to me at Apple.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:23):
I'm not going to talk about that today. Not because I'm not willing to, but because it's in my book. If you want to read about that, I have it all written out there, but there's something that happened to me recently. Recently within the last couple of years, while I've been in my new job of Mother Daughter Projects, it was right before we started a podcast actually. I think you can tell by now, I've done a lot of work. I've done a lot of therapy, I've done a lot of talking about my junk and getting it out because I believe in the importance of that.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:52):
That's how I move forward and get better everyday by getting the junk out of me. I was sexually harassed at a work event a couple years ago. And at the time I was really mad because, and I'm still mad.
Beth Demme (19:07):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:07):
I'm still mad because I'm mad anytime a man feels like they have the right to take advantage of a woman. I get comments on YouTube of men trying to put me in my place as a woman to get back in the kitchen. They feel like they have the right to say whatever they want and they don't, and they get deleted and hidden from my channel. But I do unfortunately have to see them first. I felt like it was important to share the story and we've had it on the list to share it since the beginning of the podcast because it happened right before we started the podcast.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:41):
And I want to talk about it because I think sometimes we talk about Me Too things a long time ago and not current. This happened after... This was after the #MeToo happened. This is after I wrote my book and I've dealt with my stuff, this happened.
Beth Demme (19:58):
It's not as if suddenly the whole world is woke and that this has stopped being an issue. This continues to be an issue.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:06):
Beth Demme (20:06):
You were at a DIY industry event.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:08):
Beth Demme (20:09):
And tell us what happened.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:10):
It was a small event. We were asked by a major company that we used to be sponsored by. We are no longer sponsored by them, and no, it's not Home Depot. We love Home Depot. Don't even come for them. I'm not going to mention the company because it's unimportant, but I will say I have DIY friends have asked me about working with this company, I will tell them. I will tell them why I would never work for this company again.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:31):
But they asked us to be a part of a small group of DIY industry experts, and we would meet every year in-person, and we would talk about some brainstorming things. So it was really cool. I was like, 'This is awesome. They want us to be part of this, this is very cool." And we went and it actually was a great little group. We actually did a service project together the first day, and then the second day we met to do the brainstorming.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:58):
What happened was... And my mom was there obviously because we work together. So that's another thing to keep in mind is I was surrounded by people and my mom was there. And I say that because I feel like a lot of the time we talk about sexual harassment and it's like, oh, if I'd been there, I would have done something. But it happened in an instant. It can happen in a split second and no one knows it happened.
Beth Demme (21:23):
Right. And in that split second, you have to make a decision about what's best for yourself. Is the best thing for yourself to explode and make a scene? Or is the best thing for yourself to give yourself a second to process it and figure out what happened?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:39):
In my case, I had to process what happened because I didn't even... It was a split second, I didn't even understand what was going on. So I will explain the situation just so you have context, and then Beth can define for us whether she thinks it's harassment or not. This will be a good one, let's see Beth if she thinks it's a high enough on her spectrum here.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:59):
We were doing a service project together, which is great. We're all in this room with a bunch of tools and we're doing some projects and one of the guys was like, "Hey, let's take a selfie." And we're like, "Okay." With a selfie, someone's holding a selfie and you got to scoot in so you're altogether.
Beth Demme (22:14):
And how many people are getting in the selfie?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:16):
I think there was... There was a group of, let's say, 10 of us, and there was maybe seven of us that were close together for the selfie.
Beth Demme (22:25):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:25):
There was only seven of us and this guy was like, "Hey, let's take a selfie." And there was four women, I believe in our group, me and my mom, and then one worked for the company, and the other was part of the group that me and my mom were in. So we scooch in, which is totally fine. I don't have a problem when you're scooching in and you accidentally touch or bump someone. Oh, it happens.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:50):
So we scooch in and he's taking... He took a couple pictures. And during the split second, I feel someone right behind me and I feel a thrust, two thrusts on my backside. And I was very taken aback because there was no one behind me when the picture started. And I knew there was a man standing to the right of me, and I knew there were some men that weren't in the picture. I was just very confused, so I looked behind me because I thought, oh, if someone must have accidentally bumped into me because it was very noticeable.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:24):
In my mind, if someone accidentally bumped into you in that kind of capacity, "Oh, I'm sorry."
Beth Demme (23:30):
Yeah, of course.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:30):
Beth Demme (23:30):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:31):
Beth Demme (23:31):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:32):
I turn around, no one's behind me. I didn't know what guy it was and it was very strange, and I was like, "Okay, very strange." And I honestly didn't know who it was because when I turned back, there was no one behind me. But it kept sitting with me and I was like, "The fact that no one said anything, this is weird." People bumping, anything like that, it happens in that kind of picture, but no one saying anything, it was very weird to me.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:59):
And there was one guy that actually worked for the company that we no longer work with that every time I saw him, because I had met him a couple of times, got a creepy vibe from him.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:08):
I have a big creep vibe radar, probably because I have been sexually abused, I read people and... To me, a creep vibe is like, not that they look creepy, but they don't seem safe. They don't seem 100% safe. If I get a creep vibe from someone, that's someone I will never be alone in a room with. It doesn't mean I won't associate with them, but I will always have my guard up with those people until they show me otherwise.
Beth Demme (24:35):
Trust your gut.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:37):
Beth Demme (24:37):
You have good instincts, trust your gut.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:38):
And that's how it was with this guy. I still didn't know who it was. Then the next day we had this conference and we had already been assigned groups. And me and my mom were assigned in this group with this creepy guy and I just was feeling sick. I was feeling sick around him and I didn't know why. My brain was just over-processing. I hadn't told my mom how I was feeling because I didn't understand what was happening.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:03):
And it kept sitting with me, and even after the event, I reached out to the guy that took the selfie and I said, "Hey, thanks for taking pictures. I was just curious if you can send that to me." Because in the pit of my stomach, I knew who it was. Got the picture, it was the guy.
Beth Demme (25:18):
And the creep was behind you in the picture.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:19):
The creep was behind me. There was plenty of space next to me, because the distance between... I was standing close to my mom, but the distance between me and the other guy next to me, plenty room that that guy could have stand in. He intentionally ran over from the other side of the room and inappropriately touched me, and then he walked away because he knew he could and he was fine with it. When I realized it was him, I knew it was him, in my mind, I knew it was him. I was done. I was like, "This, I am over this."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:51):
And I had to decide what to do because I was like, "You know what?" Because in the moment, like I said, I didn't even know what happened. There was nothing even to say because it was so confusing. Because at first I thought someone accidentally hit me, and then when I looked around, no one was there.
Beth Demme (26:07):
It sounds to me like he was taking advantage of the situation because he thought he could get away with it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:12):
Yeah. He did in that sense because I didn't even know what was going on. So anyways, months and months went by, talked it over with my sponsor and I shared it with you, and I finally did to my mom and she's like, I was right there and I was like, "I know. It happens in a split second." So I talked it over and finally decided that I was going to message the company. And I knew it would be the end of any sponsorship with them.
Beth Demme (26:37):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:37):
I knew we would never work with them again, but I knew I had to do that because he's a creep and he's always going to be a creep. He scares me. I would not even say his name because I don't even want him to, yeah.
Beth Demme (26:52):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:53):
Beth Demme (26:53):
And he's probably been creepy for a long time and he's probably been inappropriate to people other than just you. So it's important to make sure that that is communicated to the company.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:06):
I don't even work with them anymore, but I felt it was my duty to report it, and I did. And they were cordial about it. They said, "Thanks for letting us know. We'll investigate this." Obviously, how are they going to investigate that? I don't know. They never followed up with questions, but I reported it, they're aware. It's in his file. Whether it is or not, I did what I could.
Beth Demme (27:28):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:29):
And if any other influencer asked me about that company, I will tell them not to work with them. I will tell them what happened to my situation. Beyond that they were horrible to work with. Bad communication, payment took forever. Beyond that, they're bad to work with, so for so many reasons, don't waste your time. But yeah, so I felt like that was important to share on the podcast. I definitely still have emotions, but not... I can speak about it and it doesn't break me.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:03):
There's anger there, but not anger where it's going to cripple me because I have talked about, and I think it's so important for women to talk. It's important to find some trusted, safe person to talk with. It can be a person, it can be a therapist, it can be recovery sponsor. But I find with my situations, it's so important just to get it out. Once I get it out, it can no longer control me.
Beth Demme (28:31):
When you hold that in or really hold any negative emotion like that, when we hold it in, I think that it just grows.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:40):
And it made me feel degraded. It made me feel gross, it made me feel less than. It made me feel taken advantage of. It made me feel like I'm in the wrong industry. It pushed me... Because I'm in an industry with primarily men. Me and my mom make do it yourself videos, we use power tools all the time and we've had men many times look at us like, what are these little ladies going to do? And they can think what they want, but our projects and work speaks for itself.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:09):
It did all these things, that one split second action, put all these feelings and emotions in my head and it really crippled me for a while. I had to do a lot of work to move past it, and that's not okay. And that to me is what sexual harassment is. But Beth, what do you think?
Beth Demme (29:31):
I think that that rose to the level of battery, and I would say that it was a sexual touching. I think that it might not fit within my definition of sexual harassment, because it was a one time thing. It was an act, it was not okay. It was inappropriate, it was vulgar. It was terrible in many, many ways. It should be included in that statistic somehow, but I don't know if I would consider that sexual harassment.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:00):
Would you consider it sexual abuse?
Beth Demme (30:02):
Yeah, I think I would.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:04):
Would you consider it part of the Me Too movement?
Beth Demme (30:06):
I definitely would because it's an unwanted sexual touching. It's absolutely not okay.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:11):
But do the minute details of what it is and what it isn't, does it even matter? Is it more important that we get it out? That we talk and we say this is not okay.
Beth Demme (30:20):
Absolutely, it needs to be talked about. And absolutely, we need to say that it's not okay. I'm not disputing that in any way.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:26):
You're a lawyer, Beth.
Beth Demme (30:28):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:30):
We've talked about that before.
Beth Demme (30:31):
Florida Bar number 172431. That's me.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:33):
I'll look you up.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:35):
The story I just said, what would be... And not... Sorry, I probably shouldn't have said the lawyer thing because not what I mean specifically, but how do you think that situation should have been handled, of what happened to me?
Beth Demme (30:48):
How do I think the company should have handled it? Or how do I think you should have handled it?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:50):
Just overall, how do you think it should been handled?
Beth Demme (30:53):
I think my hope would be that the company would have done an actual investigation in terms of following up with you to ask you questions and following up with him to ask him questions. And when it was established that he had acted inappropriately, and I think all the evidence that's needed for that is your statement and the picture, that when that evidence came to light, that he should have been removed from his position. Should have lost his job.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:17):
Why is that not happening in these situations? I don't know if it happened in my situation, but I don't see that happening in a lot of these cases.
Beth Demme (31:27):
I don't know exactly why it's not happening. I can speculate about why it happens.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:32):
Speculation is great. [crosstalk 00:31:33]-
Beth Demme (31:33):
Which is that: the ultimate decision makers in a lot of businesses are men. So their lens for this is different than the lens a woman would bring to that. And so they are more likely to minimize or dismiss bad behavior than to take it seriously when they should. Which is why the Me Too movement is so important so that men are educated about how widespread this is and how not okay it is. And the emotional impact that it has on women of all ages.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:10):
For me, it was important to report it to the company because in my mind it wasn't a fire-able offense in the sense of... That wasn't my goal was to get him fired. My goal was for it to be reported because I absolutely believe he's done this right way more.
Beth Demme (32:26):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:26):
If this happened to me in knowing him for like no time, it's happened and it's probably rampant with this person. Whether women have been comfortable coming forward. He is high up in the company, I think he was the VP, high up. And it's the boys, boys club. That was one of the things we were really pushed off, we realized that when we actually went to headquarters. We were like, "Oh, I get it now. Okay."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:49):
But I felt was important to report it to the company because if it's there, they have it, whether they put it under the rug or whatever, they have, it it's been reported.
Beth Demme (32:58):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:58):
I felt like it was important for other women, for me to take whatever power I have and do that. A lot of women share their experiences on social media. A lot of women, that's where the movement started is women actually sharing women, putting big names out there of men that have taken advantage completely. So I guess my question, what do you think? What is the best way to go about this kind of situation?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:22):
Like for me, would it have been best for me to put it on my social media and be like, "This is what happened, this company dah, dah, dah."? Or was it better to go the route I did?
Beth Demme (33:34):
That's a very individual decision and I feel like you did the right thing by going to the company. If you had put it on social media or when other women put things on social media, I think sometimes what they're wondering is, have other people had the same experience with the same perpetrator? And is there something that--our individual report's getting ignored--but that we can coalesce our collective experiences and really actually affect change?
Beth Demme (34:02):
That's not always the case. Some just tend to share more on social media, that's part of their processing. So I don't know that there's a wrong way to do it, but-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:12):
I do think it's really powerful, man. I think that's how women are taking their power and putting it on social media. Because once there's so many people saying it, you can't stop that noise, it's happening. So one of the things that I've heard people say, not women, interesting enough. I think it's more of men I'm hearing it from, is that the Me Too movement has gone too far? Is this something you've heard?
Beth Demme (34:36):
I've heard that. I've heard like... In fact, it's a show that I know you don't like, but there's The Morning Show-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:42):
I don't like the Joe
Beth Demme (34:43):
... which is on what? Apple-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:44):
Beth Demme (34:45):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:46):
Beth Demme (34:46):
Okay. Can never remember what all the things are called. The character, Steve Carell's character in there-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:51):
Beth Demme (34:52):
Yeah. Not good casting. He's too nice of a human to-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:55):
We all know it, he's too nice.
Beth Demme (34:57):
... played a part like that. But-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:58):
Matt Lauer, he would have been good. We'd believe it.
Beth Demme (35:02):
His character basically tries to make that argument. He's saying, "I'm getting swept up in this, but all the relationships I had at work were consensual-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:10):
Beth Demme (35:12):
... and so the Me Too movement has gone too far because now you're just casting this really wide net so that any kind of relationship between men and women is inappropriate." And that's just not the case, so I don't put any validity into that.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:27):
I just feel so bad for men in power that they are having all these women actually saying what they're doing and telling people. Oh my gosh, poor men. Poor men.
Beth Demme (35:41):
Yes. I think that what men forget and even when good guys are looking at it from the outside, I think what they forget is how power dynamics work in a job. And so that's-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:56):
A job. In society. In the United States. Men have power.
Beth Demme (35:59):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:00):
Beth Demme (36:02):
But in a workplace environment specifically, that's why companies have rules against people having workplace relationships because there is always a power dynamic if you're a supervisor. So someone who is your subordinate cannot consent to a relationship with you because there's this power dynamic, their consent is coerced.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:23):
Yeah. I think I can speak to men with this analogy. I think this is good. So, you know Superman?
Beth Demme (36:29):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:30):
Come on, men know Superman. With great power comes great responsibility, which I think is from Spiderman, so sorry, men, that was the wrong wording. But we're going to lump all the superheroes together. Superman, he's super powerful. He has more power than anyone on earth and he uses it for good. He intentionally goes out and saves people. But what happens if he gets upset and red kryptonite is used on him and he is a bad guy, and he uses power for bad?
Beth Demme (37:00):
Then that's bad.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:01):
Come on, guys, you've read the comic books, you've seen the shows, red kryptonite is bad.
Beth Demme (37:06):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:06):
And that's what's happening to these executives is once they get in a place of really big power, they're eaten by the red kryptonite and they think that they can do whatever and all these bad things, and that's not okay. We got to look and say-
Beth Demme (37:21):
Got to say, "It's not okay."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:23):
It's not okay. You powerful? That's great. I'm not trying to dethrone you, but I want you to figure out how to use that power for good because you can make the change here. The good men in this world can make the change here. They can kick those bad guys out and they can help all of us be equal. The more we are altogether, the better this world is going to be.
Beth Demme (37:44):
I think that's true in so many ways. I think even if it's a group of men who are not particularly powerful, there are power dynamics in all aspects of our lives, but I can just envision a group of men just hanging out as buddies and one guy says something inappropriate about women. It would be great if the other men were like, "That's not okay." We have the same expectation now, I hope, when it comes to racist comments-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:11):
Beth Demme (38:11):
Right? That when there's a racist comment made, the anti-racist move is to say, "That's racist and it's not okay. Think about what you're saying."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:18):
And how powerful will that be for your friend to hear you say that? That is power! Use your power for good, use your voice for good. And that's what we need with the Black Lives Matter movement, with the Me Too movement. That's what we need is people to see, "Oh, this is happening. This shouldn't be happening. I'm going to say something."
Beth Demme (38:38):
Right. When someone makes a comment on tape about grabbing women in a very private area, we don't go, "Oh, it's just locker room talk." No, we're not going to have locker room talk anymore if that's what it's going to be. You want to talk in the locker room, you talk about who won the game, or who should be the quarterback, or whatever other stuff you want to talk about.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:00):
Or get out of the locker room because coronavirus. Hello? That is not a good place to be. But I'm doing so much talking. I'm just curious. Do you have any Me Too experiences that you would want to share? You have anything to share or add to this?
Beth Demme (39:16):
I have some that I don't want to share-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:18):
Beth Demme (39:18):
... and I'm a grown woman-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:19):
Tell me those. Tell me those.
Beth Demme (39:20):
... so I can say that. So if you're listening, you may have moments that you don't want to share either, and that's okay. But I did have an experience that comes back to me quite often. When I hear Me Too stories, I remember when I was practicing law full time. And I was a lot younger, I was in my 20s and so I wasn't fully myself. I don't know how else to explain that other than I didn't fully occupy my rights as a human. I really was just learning all of that.
Beth Demme (39:49):
So I was in my 20s and I was working with an expert witness who we very much needed for the case. My client really needed this person's testimony and I had to meet with the expert witness repeatedly. And they were extremely well credentialed, it would have been difficult to replace them and he was often inappropriate. He would say inappropriate things, never touched me beyond like my knee or my leg, but like-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:17):
That's a big deal.
Beth Demme (40:17):
No, it was inappropriate, 100% inappropriate.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:20):
Beth Demme (40:21):
But it was a whole series of inappropriate things. So I think about him whenever I hear someone's me to story, I'm like, "If that happened to me today, I would have a very different response than 25-year me old had."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:35):
It's interesting you say that because I thought that having gone through all my experience, that's in my book and things like that. I thought, if it ever happened to me again, I'm going to know how to respond. And yet it happened to me again and I couldn't respond because it's not a black and white thing. It is, but in the moment, at least for me in the situation, for me in that moment, I had no words.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:03):
Yours was a little different, so if it happened to you now, if that was a continuous thing, yes. More than likely you, you'd be like, "No, this is not appropriate."
Beth Demme (41:11):
Yeah, I would have words for the very first time, I think.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:15):
Yeah. But it's interesting because I thought that same thing and then yet it happened. Then after it happened, I thought through a million other things I should have said because... But then I even thought like, if I had screamed and yelled right at that moment like, "Who touched me? What happened?" I would still have been looked at like, "You're crazy. What? No." I would still have been looked at like that.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:37):
Actually when I played it back, I'm like, "I don't know how I could have even done things differently if I even had realized in that split second. Because it was a split second. It wasn't like I had even five minutes to comprehend. And I think that's the whole point of what we're talking about is these things are happening. One of the things that why in my opinion, it's so important to talk about all the things, whatever category you want to put it in, in my mind, it doesn't matter.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (42:05):
Because there's a lot of women these things have happened to and don't-
Beth Demme (42:07):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (42:07):
... even realize they've happened. And that's what's really... The stats are one in four, I think I believe that, and 81, I think it's higher than that. Because I think we see these things on TV and we think it's okay. We have movies produced by the biggest creeps, the biggest... Should be in jail for life and they're showing us that this is okay. There's probably plenty of women that have been in these situations and would not report it as inappropriate, would not report it as a Me Too moment.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (42:42):
Wherever category you want to put it in, it is. And the more we talk about the little, the big and everything in between, the more women are going to be like, "Oh yeah, that's why I get a creepy vibe. I've never been able to really comprehend that that's what... That really was inappropriate and that has affected me in my workplace. And now I see that." And also what you were saying about being in your 20s. It's not that you weren't fully you, you were you, but you didn't have enough life experience to know.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (43:10):
I remember me in my 20s too, you don't know life yet. You haven't really experienced life enough to even know like how inappropriate something is because it's not black and white. And people may see something happen and no one says anything. So then you're 20, you're thinking, this must be okay because no one said anything. No one stood up for me, so it must be okay. It's not until you're older that you realize you have to stand up for you. You have to say, "This isn't okay."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (43:37):
It's not fair and it's not okay, but we have to stand up as women and say, "That's not okay." We have to stand up for each other and say, "That's not okay." And the more our voices are heard, the more change will happen because I want change to happen for my nieces, for my nephews. I want them to live in a better world. I want them to know what's appropriate and what's not.
Beth Demme (43:57):
I don't want to use any names or descriptive factors, but I want to talk about something that happened about a year ago or within the last year, I would say. It was for sure before Corona, so I don't know. I was like-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (44:09):
Life before and after.
Beth Demme (44:10):
Right, yeah. It was BC before corona. This did not happen at my church, but it happened at a church that I know and I know all the people involved. A teenage girl was slapped by a teenage boy, and there were several teenagers around and they were all stunned that it happened, and no one said anything.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (44:34):
Was there adults there?
Beth Demme (44:35):
The adult heard it, but didn't see it and said, "Oh, you two should hug and makeup."So-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (44:46):
Was the adult a male?
Beth Demme (44:48):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (44:48):
Okay. Great. I could tell.
Beth Demme (44:50):
After all of that-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (44:51):
Oh my God.
Beth Demme (44:52):
... there was a lot of time and energy spent on training the adult on what a better response would have been and working with the person who slapped, and the person who was slapped, and helping them work through their emotions. And also working with the kids who didn't say anything to say, "When you see something, you say something."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (45:13):
Beth Demme (45:15):
Yeah. It was a terrible thing that happened. I felt like the response was as healthy as it could be, but I felt like their response was really propelled in many ways by the Me Too movement. Everyone understood, this girl who's been slapped has a voice, and that it's not okay for people to be treated that way. So it may be a small sign of progress, so bad things are happening, but maybe the post/subsequent training and conversations are better.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (45:41):
I just want to put it out there, never tell someone to hug it out.
Beth Demme (45:46):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (45:46):
A boy and a girl, No.
Beth Demme (45:48):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (45:49):
Not appropriate, not okay. Even if it's family members, it's not okay. We need to remember, abuse happens rampantly in families.
Beth Demme (45:57):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (45:57):
It does. We focus so much on stranger danger. Yes, that should be a little footnote important, yes. Family danger is-
Beth Demme (46:05):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:05):
... super important, we have to talk about it. People you know is where the abuse is happening. Do not tell someone to hug it out. I'm sorry, that is not appropriate.
Beth Demme (46:14):
I'll say, I have told my kids, not lately, but when they were younger, I would have told them to hug it out. When they're both bickering, [inaudible 00:46:20], "Oh, just stop. I'm going to tie the two of you together."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:24):
Yeah. You, as the parent, make that choice. You, as the parent, decide what's right for your kids. I'm not going to tell you how to parent. And based on the situation, that sounds appropriate. That is-
Beth Demme (46:38):
But never say to someone, even in a family situation like, "Oh, this person has just harmed you? Go hug them." No-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:44):
Exactly. No, that's not okay.
Beth Demme (46:46):
No, we don't do that.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:47):
I'm thinking about it and I don't remember my mom ever telling me to hug it out with my brother. I don't remember that. I don't know. I'm going to have to ask her. I'm interested if that... I feel like she didn't.
Beth Demme (46:57):
I never knew if it was the right thing to do, but I always tried to plant little seeds. Like I'd say things like, "You guys are arguing so much, but when you're adults, you're going to be like best friends." Like trying to plant that.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:06):
But that's not correct, but okay. Maybe it is for other people, not-
Beth Demme (47:09):
It has worked for them. They are pretty well bonded.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:12):
But they're not adults though.
Beth Demme (47:14):
No, that's true. Not yet.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:14):
One's a baby adult.
Beth Demme (47:16):
Yeah. The man child.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:18):
Yeah. 18 is like you're not there yet.
Beth Demme (47:22):
I was trying to forecast for them what I hoped for them. I wasn't issuing an edict.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:26):
You're like, "If I say it enough, it's going to happen." Just say, "You will love each other one day." I think my mom did say that, that was the line. Like, "You will love each other one day. You will be friends." It hasn't happened, but that's another story.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:39):
All right. Beth, did you have anything else you wanted to share about the Me Too movement? We are pretty far along in our time and I hope we keep most of this because it felt like a good conversation as much as-
Beth Demme (47:51):
It was good.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:51):
... it was tough.
Beth Demme (47:52):
Yeah, it was good. I don't have anything else.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:58):
And now it's time for questions for reflection. These are questions based on today's show that Beth is going to read and she'll leave a little pause between each. You can pause the podcast and answer them for yourself or you can find a PDF on our email@example.com.
Beth Demme (48:11):
Then stay tuned for Slice of Life.
Beth Demme (48:13):
Question number one, remember back to 2017, what were your feelings about the #Me Too movement?
Beth Demme (48:21):
Number two, have you ever had or witnessed a Me Too moment? As you reflect on that, what emotions come to the surface?
Beth Demme (48:31):
Number three, have you ever had the feeling that someone was not a safe person? What did you do and how did you feel?
Beth Demme (48:39):
Number four, do you think there's power in having women share their Me Too stories? Do you have a story you could share with a trusted person this week?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (48:55):
All right, Beth. So a couple weeks ago, a while back, I think during coronavirus, so lots of weeks ago, I mentioned a product called PhoneSoap that I had pre-ordered. And I am excited to say that I have gotten it.
Beth Demme (49:07):
And I'm so excited because you just got my phone-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (49:09):
I just PhoneSoaped-
Beth Demme (49:10):
... and my case out of the cleaner.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (49:12):
Yes. Does it feel clean, Beth?
Beth Demme (49:14):
It feels clean!
Stephanie Kostopoulos (49:15):
Does it feel like there's no coronavirus on it?
Beth Demme (49:17):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (49:17):
Beth Demme (49:18):
When I handed it to you, it was just covered in coronavirus.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (49:20):
Yeah, I cleaned my hands after. I'm not going to lie, I did. I cleaned them because I'm smart.
Beth Demme (49:24):
My phone, I don't think I'm the only one with this but my phone gets gross.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (49:28):
Yeah. They all do.
Beth Demme (49:29):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (49:30):
I mentioned this back in the day, coronavirus, early coronavirus-
Beth Demme (49:36):
We were some weeks in.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (49:37):
I know, I don't even know. There's this product called PhoneSoap, and it's been around for a long time. It's actually on Shark Tank, and I finally bought one because I thought, you know what? It kills you the 99.99 stuff. So I bought it and I have the PhoneSoap in the HomeSoap. The HomeSoap actually is big enough to hold like multiple items and like an iPad, so it's bigger, and the PhoneSoap is about the size of a phone.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (50:01):
But I'd like to report that I like them. I think they're-
Beth Demme (50:04):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (50:04):
... great. It's just like a UV light that's killing viruses, so it's not scrubbing your phone clean, but it's getting any viruses and things like that off of it, bacteria. I had researched it ahead of time before I bought it and found research that it did in fact work. Some people had done reviews on it actually with tools that can-
Beth Demme (50:23):
Oh, they can measure it. Like what-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (50:24):
Beth Demme (50:25):
... was there before and then-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (50:26):
Like a bacteria swabbing and things like that, and like a Petri dish. So it was legit and I've been happy with it. I haven't had any issues, so I recommend it. Not sponsored, but just thought I would share.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (50:37):
I also had another thing to share. Back on episode 22-
Beth Demme (50:40):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (50:42):
Beth Demme (50:42):
That was Emily-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (50:43):
Beth Demme (50:43):
... she was our special guest.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (50:44):
Emily was on and she was pregnant at the time, but she's not pregnant anymore.
Beth Demme (50:47):
She's not pregnant? What happened?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (50:48):
She had a baby.
Beth Demme (50:48):
She had a baby.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (50:49):
Beth Demme (50:50):
Yay. A baby girl, right?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (50:53):
Baby girl, yes.
Beth Demme (50:54):
Oh. Congratulations Emily.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (50:56):
I know. Yes. Congratulations Emily and Matt. We are very excited for them, and they are just two really happy, proud parents. I brought a meal little while back to them and they were very appreciative because I think that's the last thing you think of when you're a parent is to eat yourself. Not eat yourself, but feed yourself.
Beth Demme (51:17):
Yeah. I think that that's an exhausting stage and phase. And everything is new and potentially worrisome, and she went through that all during COVID.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (51:26):
Beth Demme (51:26):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (51:27):
She's a rock star.
Beth Demme (51:28):
She is a rock star.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (51:28):
For so many reasons, man.
Beth Demme (51:30):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (51:31):
Beth Demme (51:33):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (51:33):
Very excited, yes. And I got to see her from six feet away and she's the cutest with a mask.
Beth Demme (51:39):
The baby had on a mask?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (51:40):
No, no, I had a mask. [inaudible 00:51:41].
Beth Demme (51:40):
That'd really funny, like a little baby, teeny tiny baby mask. It probably won't be a good idea.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (51:47):
It's unsafe for baby, kids under two, I believe.
Beth Demme (51:50):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (51:52):
Yeah, we will not be putting a mask on her.
Beth Demme (51:53):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (51:53):
She'll be staying home and very safe.
Beth Demme (51:56):
As going back to episode 22 or going back to catch up on any episodes that you've missed, I want to invite you, especially if you're listening in the Apple Podcast app, to go ahead and give us a five star review. It does help other people find us, and also it just makes us feel good. It makes us smile. So I want to invite you to go ahead and do that. You know what? Just do it right now. We'll wait.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (52:20):
Have you done it yet? Have you done it yet? Did you know how to do it?
Beth Demme (52:24):
Does it need instructions?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (52:25):
Go all the way down to the bottom of our podcast in Apple Podcast app, and then you just click the fifth star. That's it.
Beth Demme (52:33):
That's it. That's all you got to do.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (52:34):
Yeah. That's all you have to do.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (52:35):
Okay, I think they did it. Yeah.
Beth Demme (52:37):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (52:37):
Beth Demme (52:37):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (52:38):
Okay, cool. Good job.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (52:39):
This has been the Discovering Our Scars Podcast. Thanks for joining us.