Questions for Reflection
In each episode, we offer you a few prompts to think about how that day's conversation applies to you. Our supporters over at Buy Me a Coffee now have exclusive access to the PDF versions of all our Questions for Reflection. Join us today!
Beth Demme (00:03):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars Podcast.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:06):
Where we share personal experiences, so we can learn from each other. I'm Steph.
Beth Demme (00:09):
And I'm Beth.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:09):
I've been in recovery for 15 years and am the author of Discovering My Scars. My memoir about how what's done in the darkness, eventually comes to light.
Beth Demme (00:16):
I'm a lawyer turned pastor who's all about self-awareness and emotional health, because I know what it's like to have neither of those things.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:22):
Beth and I have been friends for years. We have gone through a recovery program together. And when, I wanted to start a podcast, she was the only name that came to mind as co-host.
Beth Demme (00:29):
I didn't hesitate to say yes, because I've learned a lot from sharing personal experiences with Steph over the years.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:34):
We value honest conversations, we hope you do, too.
Beth Demme (00:37):
On today's show, we're going to have an honest conversation titled: Dress for the Job You Want?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:42):
Then, we'll share a slice of life, and the show will close with Questions for Reflection, where we'll invite you to reflect on the conversation in your own life.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:49):
So, Beth, we've brought this phrase up before, this cliché...
Beth Demme (00:53):
Actually, it's a cliché, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:54):
I will say that's one of the areas that we want to focus on with our podcasts is, talking about breaking clichés. So, spoiler, we're going to break it today.
Beth Demme (01:04):
It's in our pentagon.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:06):
So, we are using the pentagon as our way of coming up with show ideas.
Beth Demme (01:10):
And one of those things is clichés.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:12):
Clichés. Dress for the job you want, not the job you have. What is this really saying? First of all, my personal opinion, it says nothing. What is your opinion of what it says?
Beth Demme (01:24):
I think there are times where this makes sense as actual solid advice. But I think it's not generally used in a way that's useful. I think it can be used as —actually, as a way to insult someone--
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:39):
Beth Demme (01:39):
... which is not great. And it's in fact, a big should.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:43):
Beth Demme (01:43):
And we've been real clear that we do not want to should on people.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:47):
Beth Demme (01:47):
And we do not want people to should on us.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:49):
Yeah. And I've been should'ed on before, I've had this phrase told to me a handful of times by actually one particular person, I'm not going to say who they are because I'm very bitter about them at this point.
Beth Demme (02:00):
Do you think they're listening?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:02):
Not at all.
Beth Demme (02:02):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:03):
Not at all. It's a family member. Someone I used to actually enjoy spending time with and talking with. And it's not because of this phrase at all. It's a long story, but it has to do with COVID.
Beth Demme (02:14):
So, this person used to say to you, "Dress for the job you want, not the job you have?"
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:18):
Yes. So, I'm trying to remember exactly because it's been multiple times over the years. I believe it's when I first, when I worked at, I think, the church. I think it was I when I worked at the church, and she was saying this to me, "Dress for the job you want, not the job you have." And first of all, what does that mean? First of all, I had a job that I wanted. I actually, actively pursued this job.
Beth Demme (02:40):
Right. You actually, changed your life a lot by moving specifically for this... Not specific for the job, but the job was part of it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:48):
Yeah, and I actively pursued it. I wanted this, interview multiple times for it. And got the job, and I was working in the job.
Beth Demme (02:55):
And you were dressed appropriately for work every single day that I saw you there.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:58):
And yes. And so, I think that's where the conversation came about was because when I worked at Disney, I had a costume that I wore, it was great, polyester, breathed really well, especially on those hot summer days in Florida.
Beth Demme (03:14):
It's a pro tip, if the job you want is a job at Disney...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:18):
We wore a costume.
Beth Demme (03:19):
.... then, you want to dress for the job you want, not the job. So, you need to either be in costume as a Disney character or just a really bad polyester...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:28):
Full polyester, so you're just sweating everywhere.
Beth Demme (03:30):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:30):
It's great. It's great.
Beth Demme (03:32):
So, when you worked there, you had to wear a costume...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:34):
Beth Demme (03:34):
... when you worked at Disney. And then, from Disney, you worked at Apple.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:37):
Both at the same time.
Beth Demme (03:38):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:38):
And at Apple, we wore a shirt with an apple on it, which I loved. And you could somewhere at times wear a hat with an Apple on it. And then, you wore jeans, and whatever shoes you wanted. That was the dress code. I don't think it had to be jeans, but it was pretty much we all wore jeans.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:53):
So, there was really nothing to it, and I enjoyed that. My dream job was wearing like when I was... Before I had those jobs, my dream job was working in a job where I just could wear the same thing every day. So, I love those jobs.
Beth Demme (04:07):
There you go.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:07):
I enjoyed that. And...
Beth Demme (04:09):
No decisions to make.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:10):
Yeah, I was all for that. And I looked to my leader Steve Jobs, who wore the exact same thing every day of his life, which was just great. Turtleneck, jeans, and white tennis shoes. That was his choice outfit.
Beth Demme (04:25):
You could have chosen that as your outfit when you did transition to working at the church.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:30):
Horrible option. Horrible. Turtleneck, no, thank you. Oh, my gosh. Turtleneck, I can't even imagine.
Beth Demme (04:36):
You could have picked one thing. You could have picked one thing and just wanted every day, I guess.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:39):
I have always been seeking for that one outfit that I'd want to wear every day, I've never found it.
Beth Demme (04:43):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:44):
Because I do think that would get really boring. But I have seek it out, I just never found it. So, if I ever find it, I will wear that every day. So, I would be told this phrase from her and it was just confusing because I'm like,"I'm in the job I want." So, she must be implying that I need to dress differently now for the job that I want next, but what job do I want next? So, she must know what job I want next, if she thinks I need to dress for that job. What job is this? And we wouldn't even... She wouldn't ask like, "Hey, where do you aspire to be?
Beth Demme (05:18):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:18):
Or first of all, why am I need to aspire to more than I am right now? That also is kind of an insult. I need to be somewhere different than I am now.
Beth Demme (05:27):
Right, wherever you are right now is not okay. It's not good enough.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:30):
Yeah, exactly. And then, at some point, I was ready to leave the church and I had been doing Mother Daughter Projects on the side. And I was kind of at a crossroads where I had to decide when I leave the church, "What do I want to do?" And then, again, this phrase was, "Dress for the job you want, not the job you have."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:50):
Again, I did not know what that meant because I didn't know what the job was I wanted. And all I ever took from this phrase was she was telling me that I need to dress nice, or nicer than I was. That's how I took the phrase, you need to dress in a dress or a nice suit or something. That was what I implied from her conversation. When she would say this to me, that's what I was taking from it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:15):
But it was super unhelpful. Because first of all, when I'm thinking of what I want to do, dress seems like the last thing that I'm going to think about. What do I want to do with my life? What is the thing that I want to do? And how do I want to contribute to society? Not, how do I want to look when society is looking at me?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:32):
So, in the world of somebody that was searching for what they want to do next, this was not a helpful phrase for me. And ultimately, what I ended up doing was, taking a really big leap and doing Mother Daughter Projects full time. And guess what? That was exactly how I wanted to dress was, dress in just gross clothes because I'm going to do gross things all day. And...
Beth Demme (06:56):
But always a purple shirt.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:57):
I tried to go purple, because that's our... Our color is purple and blue, or teal. So, I don't know, I haven't talked to her in a long time. So, I don't know, she would continue to tell me that phrase because I'm in the job I want. And guess what? I to get dress the way I want.
Beth Demme (07:17):
Right. Yeah, the suggestion is that, you should want to have a different job where maybe the dress is, I don't know, fancier. I'm not sure what the word is because fancy doesn't sound quite right. But it's almost like, I don't know. It strikes me as very...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:37):
A slacks job.
Beth Demme (07:38):
Got to wear slacks
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:39):
Slacks, not jeans. Slacks.
Beth Demme (07:41):
It's some polyester slacks.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:42):
Beth Demme (07:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:43):
It's got to be slacks.
Beth Demme (07:44):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:45):
I always see it as implying that, well, first of all, I think it's harmful because you're telling somebody that they should want a better job than they have, that you should always want a better job, you should always be what's the next better job? What's the next better job? And that's fine, if that...
Beth Demme (08:00):
If that's that they want, that's fine.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:01):
If that's what they want, if that's what somebody want, so that something you know somebody wants, then... This may not be a harmful phrase to say to them. But to me, it's implying that you should have a better job in a job where you have to dress nice to work. So, I think of a lawyer. You always would wear... You would never wear jeans, would you as a lawyer? I don't know how it works.
Beth Demme (08:25):
No, no, I never wore jeans. Not even on casual Friday.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:29):
Beth Demme (08:29):
I didn't wear jeans on casual Friday. It was like, I wore a business suit. And then, on casual Friday, I wore slacks. I wore khakis.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:37):
Yeah. So, that's what I'm envisioning when this phrase is thrown out there. It's like, you should want to be a lawyer and wear a nice suit to work or dress to work.
Beth Demme (08:51):
Right. And that that is the definition of success, right?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:54):
Beth Demme (08:54):
Is having a job where you have to dress that way.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:57):
Beth Demme (08:57):
Which is not actually the definition of success. And even if it is that person's definition of success, it doesn't mean that it's my definition of success or your definition of success. So, it really can be bad advice. There are times where I think its good advice. So, do you think there are times where it's true? And that would be like...
Beth Demme (09:16):
So, my kids are 19 and 17 now. And for my 19-year-old, if he was going to go apply for a job at like, I don't know, a state office or a bank. Then, I would encourage him to dress up for that interview because first impressions matter. In fact, he's working as a cook right now at a hamburger place at a Grab burger. And the day that he went for that interview, I was like, "You might as well put on some khakis." And he was like, "Yeah, good idea." And he did, and he got the job on the spot. Probably not because of how he was dressed, but that his clothes at least didn't get in his way. If he had shown up in swimsuit, they might have been like, "Oh, are you really serious?"
Beth Demme (09:58):
So, I do think that there are times when the idea of making a good first impression matters, but that's not necessarily the same as what we hear when someone says, "Dress for the job you want, not the job you have." I think that that phrase is more like what you're talking about, where it's really just, you should want a different job. You should want a job that requires you to dress differently. You should want more. You should want to earn more. You should want to spend more. You should want to do more, so that we will think you are more.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:29):
Yeah. And like what you just said, to me, that's dress appropriately for an interview.
Beth Demme (10:33):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:34):
That's what that is. And that's completely accurate. I agree with that as well. Every interview I've ever had, I dress appropriately for it.
Beth Demme (10:41):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:41):
And that's just common sense to me. But also, though, in that sense, that was appropriate for the interview. But that's probably not something that would be appropriate for a cook to wear every day to do the job.
Beth Demme (10:52):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:53):
So, he was actually dressing appropriately for the interview, but not necessarily for the job he wanted.
Beth Demme (10:58):
For the job. Right. Because his uniform, what he's supposed to wear is, he has to wear blue jeans, right?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:03):
Beth Demme (11:04):
So, he didn't wear that to the view. He didn't dress for the job he wants. And he wore like a colored shirt, like a golf shirt.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:12):
Beth Demme (11:12):
And he has a store t-shirt that he wears.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:15):
Yeah. No, and I agree, because first impressions our reality like that is... In the interview setting, it is important to make a good first impression in all the ways that you can, and dress helps that. So, I totally agree with that. And that's why I agree with that. But I also agree, like you just said, I don't think that is what this phrase is saying.
Beth Demme (11:37):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:38):
To me, I really don't think it's saying anything, because it's actually not defining anything.
Beth Demme (11:43):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:43):
It's just like, it's throwing something out that has no meaning behind it. And I remember when I actually worked at Apple, I had a manager that told me, he said, "Don't take any feedback, unless it's specific, like negative feedback." If someone's trying to tell you like, "Oh, you didn't do a good job, or you're not good at your job?" Don't listen to him at all, unless it's specific like, "What am I not doing a good job?" Like, "Oh, I just watched the interaction. And when the customer said this, you weren't able to answer their question that might be something you want to." That is specific feedback.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:21):
And, first of all, well, what job do I want? I don't even know what job I want. And why am I supposed to... How should I dress for that one? I want to be a marine biologist. How do you dress for that?
Beth Demme (12:35):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:36):
And I think, in that sense, you would observe other marine biologists and you would see... If there's a job you want to have, you would observe people in that field especially with YouTube these days. We have so much resources that we didn't have when I was job seeking. Observe them. And when I went to interview at Apple, I observed. Okay, they're all wearing Apple shirts with jeans. Okay, then I don't want to wear a suit to my interview, because that would be silly.
Beth Demme (13:02):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:03):
And I didn't. But I did wear slacks.
Beth Demme (13:05):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:05):
And I do remember, I did look appropriate. But I also didn't want to wear a suit. Because I was like... And I think my mom even said, "Wear a suit." And I was like, "That's silly."
Beth Demme (13:14):
Yeah, they would have been like, "Does she really get our vibe?" Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:16):
Beth Demme (13:17):
I will say, I remember when I was in law school, and we were all doing our interviews. The way it happens is, when you get to the end of your first year, everybody starts interviewing for summer internships, because it's the way you make money to pay for the second year of law school is, you work really hard over the summer. And those are good paying jobs, but everyone is competing for them.
Beth Demme (13:38):
And I remember one seasoned lawyer giving us advice, and they said, "Listen, I'm not paying attention to what anybody is wearing in the interview, unless it's inappropriate."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:50):
Beth Demme (13:51):
If you're in the box of, okay, you have on business attire, then it's not even going to register with me, because I'm so worried about actual performance and critical thinking, and... So, I think that that's where it comes into play with an interview is, you just have to be in the right realm, so that you're not completely drawing attention to the fact that you don't know what they're really about.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:17):
Beth Demme (14:18):
The thing about this phrase, "Dress for the job you want, not the job you have." It's not the kind of thing a friend says to you, is it? It's like, the person who said, she was like, somebody who doesn't really know you, somebody who has their own ideas about who you should be, maybe. But not somebody who really knows you.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:33):
And it's somebody that actually, yeah, somebody doesn't know you and somebody that really has nothing concrete or helpful to contribute. It's somebody that just wants to hear themselves talk and say words, and they don't know what to say, I feel.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:44):
I think it could be from a friend that knows you. This phrase could work, if a friend knows you, and you're in work at a restaurant or a fast food restaurant, but they know you want to be a lawyer one day.
Beth Demme (14:59):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:00):
Maybe that is something. And the friend is struggling with what to wear to X, Y, and Z, and maybe the friends like, "Dress for the job you want, don't dress for this food job."
Beth Demme (15:09):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:09):
I mean, so it could...
Beth Demme (15:10):
But you wouldn't wear that outfit to your work, right?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:12):
It could be, maybe they were going to a party or something...
Beth Demme (15:16):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:16):
... where there could be mixed type of people there. And people that could be lawyers or something, I don't know.
Beth Demme (15:21):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:22):
There could be a situation where someone was struggling with what to wear to something.
Beth Demme (15:27):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:27):
And a friend would be like, "Dress like them, because that's what you want to do and make sure they know."
Beth Demme (15:32):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:32):
I could see that. I could see this being a helpful phrase where it could be just remind you in a... "Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah, I'm going to do that," because that's what I want to do.
Beth Demme (15:41):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:41):
So, I could see that. But yeah, I've never heard this from my friends.
Beth Demme (15:47):
Right. And what about people who want to grow up to be in the medical profession, right? There's scrubs all day.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:52):
You should wear scrubs.
Beth Demme (15:53):
Yeah, nurses and doctors. If that's what you really want to do, I guess, you have to just go out and invest in some scrubs, because it's really the key to becoming who you want to become, and very little to do with actual education...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:05):
Beth Demme (16:05):
... or training. Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:07):
Beth Demme (16:08):
It's really how you dress.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:09):
And I guess, if you want to be a teacher, you should just always have sticky hands. Always just be sticky because...
Beth Demme (16:14):
You wouldn't like that at all.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:15):
No, I'm not.
Beth Demme (16:17):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:18):
Not all about the teacher. And kids are so judgmental. I just couldn't... I remember being a kid. I wasn't judgmental. I remember hearing the kids just what they would say, and I've just feel like, "I can't believe adults do this."
Beth Demme (16:28):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:30):
I was like, and then finding how much I get paid, and I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, why do adults do this? Oh, my gosh."
Beth Demme (16:36):
For summer talk.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:36):
Thank you so...
Beth Demme (16:38):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's not why they're not in it for the holiday.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:44):
Oh, my goodness. Let me tell you, they are working just as hard all year round. I know, teachers. I actually am still friends with my fifth grade teacher, which is pretty amazing.
Beth Demme (16:56):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:56):
She was in town a few weeks ago. And she was like, "Hey, are you guys free?" She's vaccinated. We sat together, all vaccinated and chatted. And it was just the coolest thing. She's so supportive of me, of everything I do.
Beth Demme (17:09):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:09):
And she's just made such an impact on my life. And she's retired now. But she's busier than ever. She has grandkids and kids and all this stuff. And she always comes back to Tallahassee around the start of school to cheer on the teachers that she still knows and our still teaching, because there is a handful of teachers I can remember and taught me so much.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:34):
And I learned so much about life educating, being educated, teachers do not get paid enough. And they work 24/7, no matter what a piece of paper says, how much they work, they work 24/7. And they spend way more of their own money than they ever should.
Beth Demme (17:54):
I'm trying to remember now how some of my teachers dressed. If I was going to be a teacher, and somebody said, "Dress for the job you want, not the job you have," What would you do?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:00):
I know. I don't even know. I think, I don't know. I think they were. They're like business casual, maybe, is what you would call what a teacher wears?
Beth Demme (18:12):
I think the thing that's so grading about this phrase, "Dress for the job you want, not the job you have?" It's a should, which we've already talked about. But also, I feel like the American Dream has really been corrupted into... You've got to always be pursuing more in order to be okay. So, it's about conformity. It's about consumerism, and...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:35):
Never be satisfied with where you're at.
Beth Demme (18:36):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:37):
Beth Demme (18:38):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:39):
Yeah, I agree. And it's also implying that you don't currently look nice enough. It's also saying like, because if you already look nice enough, then they wouldn't be saying it because you're already good job. So, they're also saying like, "You don't look good enough. You need to dress better."
Beth Demme (18:56):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:56):
That's also what it's implying, which is, I don't think the best way to go about that. I think you can have that conversation in many, many other ways with somebody that you care about.
Beth Demme (19:07):
You just said something, though, about being... Did you say something about being content?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:11):
Never being satisfied.
Beth Demme (19:12):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:14):
Always want more, which is that cliché American Dream that I just like, I actually don't see my generation conforming to that, like the previous generations have. I have some friends who are actually retired and they're my age, and don't want all the things, don't need all the things, and don't want the stress and the struggle that comes along with working 24/7 for that big paycheck.
Beth Demme (19:45):
That's the whole impetus behind the Tiny House Movement, right?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:48):
Beth Demme (19:49):
Yeah, we don't need to have more.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:50):
Beth Demme (19:50):
We actually, can be really happy with...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:52):
And it's like, Anti-McMansion.
Beth Demme (19:52):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:53):
That's the whole concept of it, which I really like. The Tiny House Movement and I thought about getting a tiny house for a while. It is really extreme, and obviously, I have a big tiny house.
Beth Demme (20:05):
You do not have a tiny house at all.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:09):
A big tiny house, 1,400 square feet.
Beth Demme (20:11):
That's a regular-sized house.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:13):
It's no McMansion. It's not the American Dream house. I think a McMansion would be more than you need. You have the right amount for the amount of people that you have. Once the kids move out, almost questionable.
Beth Demme (20:25):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:26):
But you already have it. So, there you go.
Beth Demme (20:27):
Yeah. I mean, that's the problem is, because we've talked about that, because we're only a year from being empty nesters.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:32):
Beth Demme (20:33):
And it's like, "Okay."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:35):
But you literally own the house, you don't owe, debt on it.
Beth Demme (20:38):
Right. We don't have debt on it. So, what do we do? We take on... I don't know. So...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:43):
Yeah. But I think the McMansion concept, though, is like, get a bigger house than you need, than you can afford.
Beth Demme (20:51):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:51):
I think that's the concept. You own your house, you can afford all that.
Beth Demme (20:55):
Right. It's more ...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:56):
That's a whole... Yeah.
Beth Demme (20:58):
The debt ends.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:59):
Yeah, it's like take on the debt, it's fine.
Beth Demme (21:02):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:02):
You'll be able to pay it off one day, just like keep...
Beth Demme (21:04):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:05):
Get more, get bigger. That's the concept, just for refinancing. Yeah.
Beth Demme (21:09):
Right. Just more. Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:09):
Yeah, that's the concept more than the size of it.
Beth Demme (21:13):
When you said that thing about being satisfied, it got me thinking about complacency, because contentment, sometimes slips into complacency. And I'm not sure where that line is. So, although, I don't think I would say to somebody who I perceived to be complacent in a bad way, like, "Dress for the job you want, not the job you have." I might move in that direction.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:39):
So, how are you using complacent?
Beth Demme (21:42):
When I think about complacency, I actually don't think so much about individual people, or how individual people are living. I really think of it more on an institutional level. So, it might not be applicable here at all. But I've been part of organizations that I thought, you've just gotten complacent, and you're not trying to reach out or grow or activate your purpose. So, complacency isn't okay.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:08):
So, like a church who becomes complacent with who they have in, in the church, and what they do on a day-to-day basis, and is not actually outreaching to the community and trying to get new members because they don't really want to grow. They've just been complacent and just satisfied with where they are.
Beth Demme (22:26):
Right. And then, new people are a threat.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:30):
Beth Demme (22:31):
Because new people, "We're going to have to..."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:33):
Beth Demme (22:34):
Yeah, they might want to change. They might want to change things.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:36):
Beth Demme (22:36):
And we like how things are. We like how we're doing things. So, contentment, I don't know. Something about that makes me a little bit uneasy, just because of the way it can slip into complacency. Or people, I do think that sometimes... I can't... Gosh, I wish I can think of a concrete example. But in my mind, I think there are people who have decided to settle, even though they're unhappy.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:01):
Yeah. So, when your time on that, I think an individual level, I think there are... There's friends I've had that hate their job...
Beth Demme (23:09):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:10):
... but they have stayed with it, because it's good payment, they know the job, they don't want to learn anything new.
Beth Demme (23:17):
They have benefits.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:18):
They have benefits, but they don't actually move on to something new, because they're all of those reasons.
Beth Demme (23:26):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:26):
And so, yeah. And I would agree in that sense, they become complacent, and they don't want to spend the energy, time, and everything to...
Beth Demme (23:37):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:38):
... look for something new, and something that they want to do more of that they would enjoy doing more.
Beth Demme (23:42):
So, they're discontent, but they're complacent.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:45):
Yeah. So, how does that fit into this phrase?
Beth Demme (23:49):
Well, I just wonder if I saw somebody in that situation, and I saw that they had really settled, and they were sharing with me that they were unhappy, I could kind of see saying, "Do you want more? Do you want something different?" Kind of asking questions that could end up being assured like this? You seem like you're pretty unhappy. Maybe, you should make a change, dress for the job you want, not the job you have.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:18):
Yeah, I don't know if it's a true friend. I don't know. I can't supersede getting to this phrase. I could see getting to that discussion, though, is what do you want to do? How do you get there? What are those first steps? Do we need to go shopping?
Beth Demme (24:33):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:33):
Let's go find some outfits that will help you with that interview for that job. So, I could see it coming close to it. I don't know that the phrase would like...
Beth Demme (24:47):
Right. Pop out?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:47):
Yeah, it would be like, "Oh, dress for the job you want, that job you have." Yes, I said, "It didn't work."
Beth Demme (24:53):
I'll also say that I really love getting new clothes. I like shopping, although not all my shopping is online because I'm willing to be in the stores because of COVID. But I just got a package yesterday that had a couple of new things. And it was really fun. It was exciting. So, that might be another way where I'd be like, "Buy yourself a little something."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:12):
I like... Have you ever done Stitch Fix?
Beth Demme (25:15):
I haven't. I have looked at it a couple of times. Have you done it?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:18):
Yeah, I actually do it pretty often. So, Stitch Fix is like a, not sponsored, but I just use it. It's like a mail... It's a box that they send you five clothing items, and you try them on. You have three days to try them on. And if you don't like them, you send them back, you don't have to pay for them. But if you do like something, you buy that. And there's a $20 styling fee, but that goes into the price of the item that you buy. So, it's free. If you buy one item, it's basically, that credit goes towards the item.
Beth Demme (25:52):
So, if you don't buy anything, it still costs you $20?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:55):
Yes, but you can get a Style Pass, which I have, which is $49 for a whole year where you don't have any styling fees. But that, again, is turned into credit. So, the first item you buy that's over $49 or more. So, it's basically free. You basically don't have that fee.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:14):
So, it's a great service. And it's not like you don't have to get it every so often. I get it just whenever. But it's just fun to get something that you might not have picked. I would never... Most of the stuff, I wouldn't pick out. But I get a lot of my short, and jeans, and stuff through there. But it's fun. And you can say the type of clothing that you need like stuff for work or casual. And then, those new stuff...
Beth Demme (26:36):
Or for the job you want?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:37):
Beth Demme (26:38):
You would like little note, like I really want to be a brain surgeon, could you send me the clothes, so I can dress for that job?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:45):
Beth Demme (26:45):
It's so funny. The dress for the job you want option.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:49):
Beth Demme (26:49):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:50):
Yeah, I don't remember seeing that on there. I mean, I've been doing it for years. So, I don't remember the quiz that you take. It's been a while since I took, I don't remember things on there. But it's fun. I think it's worth it.
Beth Demme (27:03):
Yeah, I was actually standing in my closet this morning, realizing it's time to edit this closet again. And I'm kind of down to... I just basically shop at three stores because I am just doing online and I know how their stuff fits. And I know what the sizes are. But I did start a new job recently. So, I've been getting some new clothes because I have to be around people more.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:21):
What job do you have to dress for? What kind of dress do you have to do?
Beth Demme (27:25):
So, I'm a pastor.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:27):
What does a pastor look like?
Beth Demme (27:28):
And post COVID, I am around people now. Yoga pants and T shirts aren't cutting it anymore. So, I have gotten myself some new stuff with that closet.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:37):
So, how does a pastor dress?
Beth Demme (27:39):
I would say business casual.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:40):
Business casual. Yeah.
Beth Demme (27:41):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:41):
Do you wear a robe?
Beth Demme (27:43):
On Sunday mornings, I do.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:44):
What do you wear under it? Ooh la la.
Beth Demme (27:48):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:49):
What did you like to know?
Beth Demme (27:50):
It has been so hot in the church...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:53):
Yeah. So, nothing.
Beth Demme (27:54):
... with the air conditioner on.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:55):
Maybe, a bathing suit. Oh, hilarious. You'll never know.
Beth Demme (27:59):
Like last week, I wore a sleeveless dress under the robe because I felt like it would be cooler. But then, when I didn't have my robe on, I had on a blazer. Yeah, but yeah, I got to get a new fan up there because it's just so hot.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:13):
Do you take it off? Do you take the... What do you call it? The robe.
Beth Demme (28:15):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:16):
Do you take it off during at some point?
Beth Demme (28:18):
Only after the service is done.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:20):
Beth Demme (28:20):
But the whole time, like 15 minutes before worship and 15 to 30 minutes after worship, I'm in my robe. Just while I'm interacting with people. But the robe is not really about what people might think it's about. I try to actually educate my congregations on this. I put on the robe, so that I remember that I'm not there for myself, because a lot of my formative training was around presenting things to judges and juries, and I don't ever want to get in the pulpit and act like I'm here to present you something like as if you were a jury. And I'm trying to convey... It's like, no, I'm here to serve.
Beth Demme (29:00):
And so it's a mindset shift. And also, I don't want to have to be so focused about on my clothing, because it's just not about that. So, I have a comfortable robe, and it's the same every week.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:14):
What do you think the congregation thinks of why you wear the robe? Because you said it's not what they think.
Beth Demme (29:18):
Sometimes, people think that pastors wear rose because they're trying to be fancy, or they're trying to set themselves apart, or they're trying to not dress like the congregation. And that maybe, there are pastors who do it for that reasons. I don't know. That's not why I do it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:32):
It's interesting because I would think you would wear it because you don't want your dress to be a distraction. It helps it to not be a distraction.
Beth Demme (29:40):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:40):
That's how I would see it.
Beth Demme (29:42):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:42):
Yeah, okay. Yeah, but I look at it you wear as... So, you're not a distraction...
Beth Demme (29:47):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:47):
... especially with women, I think their clothing can be a distraction, because there's so much variety in the things women can wear. And also, people tend to judge what women wear. They do.
Beth Demme (30:01):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:01):
People judge what women wear, 100 times more than they judge what men wear.
Beth Demme (30:05):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:06):
There's that also.
Beth Demme (30:08):
Yes. And that is at the heart of this phrase, "Dress for the job you want, not the job you have."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:11):
Beth Demme (30:11):
Somebody who says that, is somebody who's looking at people and judging...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:14):
And judging. Yeah.
Beth Demme (30:15):
... what they are wearing and judging their "Station" in life by how they're dressed.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:20):
Beth Demme (30:20):
It's not okay.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:21):
That was another reason why I always wanted to wear like, have a job where I could wear a costume or the same thing because I don't want the attention of... I don't want men's attention of, "Oh, look at her." So, I don't dress for men. I know, that's a big thing that we've been told to do. Dress for men so that we look pleasing to them. And I'm sorry, but I'm not going to dress for you. And I dress for me.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:46):
My mom's always told me, dress in whatever you're comfortable in. That's always what she tells me, which is sometimes still a hard phrase. I'm like, "But I'm comfortable like this." And she's like, "Maybe, a little bit more." I'm like, "For your conference," but...
Beth Demme (31:00):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:01):
... I'm so comfortable in my pajamas. Yeah.
Beth Demme (31:03):
Yeah, so comfortable.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:04):
Actually, no. It's interesting people always wear like... People when they want to become through their like, stay in pajamas all day, I'm completely uncomfortable in that. For me. I'm very much pajamas are for bed. It's a mind shift thing too. When I'm in my pajamas, I prepare myself for bed. When I wake up, I take my pajamas off, and then I'm ready to start my day. And so, it's like a very big... I could not wear them all day.
Beth Demme (31:26):
Yeah, actually, I'm with you on that.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:27):
Beth Demme (31:30):
Even when I was working at home all the time, and I really was just wearing yoga pants and T shirts. It was still like, "Okay, it's 8:30 I'm going to shift into pajamas. Oh, they're remarkably somewhere."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Beth Demme (31:42):
But the clothes that I wear is pajama.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:44):
Exactly. They're different enough that the mind shift is changing.
Beth Demme (31:48):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:49):
I do think a great example of what you said about this phrase was like, dress appropriately, essentially, was like you were telling your son is, I think your husband knows this pretty well, because you have told me that he always wore shorts.
Beth Demme (32:06):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:06):
And I was like, "I have never seen him in shorts. What do you mean he always wear shorts?" She's like, "He's always wearing shorts." And then, I come to find out that you say, if he knows he's going somewhere like he actually, was on a committee at the church when I worked there. And so, anytime I'd see him, he would be wearing long pants and probably some kind of...
Beth Demme (32:27):
Buttoned down shirt.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:28):
... this buttoned down shirt. And so, when you told me he wear shorts, I was like, "That is shocking to me."
Beth Demme (32:33):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:35):
So, he knows...
Beth Demme (32:36):
He wears shorts to work every day. And in the winter, he wear jeans. But it's warm here pretty almost a whole year round. And yeah, so he wears either a short sleeve or a long sleeve, buttoned down polo with shorts, and he works alone in the office.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:54):
Beth Demme (32:55):
Yes. By design.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:57):
Beth Demme (32:57):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:58):
So he dresses for the job he wants, because that's the job he has, it's the job he wants.
Beth Demme (33:03):
Yeah, he's like you. He created the job he wanted.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:05):
Beth Demme (33:06):
He's like, "I want to wear what I want. I want to have a job where I don't have to supervise people, where I'm in a business that's lucrative where I get to have new challenges and work on the things that I enjoy." And he has made that his career. And we were just talking that, in a couple of months, I'll celebrate the 20th anniversary of when he started that company.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:29):
Beth Demme (33:29):
And he still doesn't have any employees. And it's not...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:32):
That's the way he wants it.
Beth Demme (33:34):
Yeah, it's on purpose. He's like, "I don't want to have people who are relying on me for their salary. I don't want to have to deal with people telling me they can't come in." He's like, "I really like myself. I want to be with myself." So, that's what he does.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:48):
Now, that's the American Dream.
Beth Demme (33:54):
We have so much fun making this podcast. And we've heard from some of you that you're wondering, what is the best way to support us? So, we've decided to expand the podcast experience using buymeacoffee.com. You can go there and buy us a cup of coffee, or for Steph, a cup of tea...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:09):
Beth Demme (34:09):
... or you can actually become a monthly supporter. And that will give you access to PDFs of the questions for reflection as well as pictures, outtakes, polls, and more.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:18):
The kinds of things that we would put on social media, if we had a social media channel. But we actually don't for the podcast because we decided from the beginning that we didn't want to add to more white noise in your life. So, one of the great things about Buy Me a Coffee is that, you'll be able to actually get an email when we post new content.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:34):
You can go straight there, and you don't have to deal with ads or being bombarded with other content. You see exactly the content you're looking for without a bunch of distractions. We plan to post probably, once or twice a week and we're excited to get your feedback as members on our Buy Me a Coffee page, which we are lovingly calling our BMAC page.
Beth Demme (34:51):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:52):
So, you'll be able to find a link in our description to find out more and to sign up. I want to remind you that we have a voicemail number that you're welcome to call or text anytime, we have asked in the previously, we've asked questions, that you can answer.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:11):
So, you can answer any of those or you can give us feedback on episode, you can tell us something that you got from the episode, or you could answer this question right now. And the question is, what is your favorite breed of dog? And mutt is a breed.
Beth Demme (35:29):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:30):
And mutts are great. So, that also counts obviously.
Beth Demme (35:33):
I want to say, I think this is a question that has a right answer and a lot of wrong answers.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:35):
No, there's no right... No, no, no, there's no right answer. I just thought of it. I have two Greyhounds in here. We've talked about them before.
Beth Demme (35:40):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:40):
You know them, Mac and Tosh. Also, I was with somebody recently. And I said, Mac and Tosh. And he's like, "Oh." He had heard the names for a long time, he did not realize Macintosh was the name of a computer. And that's what they're named after.
Beth Demme (35:52):
It was on purpose.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:53):
It was on purpose. So, I have to make sure I say it correctly when people ask what your dog's names because sometimes, "This is Mac and this is Tosh." I need to say, "Mac and Tosh."
Beth Demme (36:01):
Right. Yeah. And the other day, I said something about Tosh and Mac, and she was like, "Did you choose them on purpose?" That's not how it goes. Who would I do? You said that.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Beth Demme (36:08):
Did we say it backwards on purpose?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:13):
I remember that. I did say that. That sounds like me. So, you're welcome to call our number is 850-270-3308. And that number is also always in the description of our podcast episode.
Beth Demme (36:28):
So, I found a thing that I want to ask if you know about, I don't think you know about it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:32):
Beth Demme (36:33):
So, I'm going to tell you about it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:34):
Beth Demme (36:35):
So, it was really fun. Recently, you had your nibbling in town...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:39):
You're still in town.
Beth Demme (36:40):
... and you called or texted and said, "Hey, could we come over and swim in your pool?" And I was like, "Of course, you can."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:45):
No, I think I said, "We're coming over, is it okay?" I was like, "I'm inviting us over. That's okay. Right?
Beth Demme (36:51):
Which was great. I was really glad that you did it. And I was sorry that I couldn't come out and hang out with you guys. But I was glad that you were there.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:58):
She was baking bread, folks.
Beth Demme (36:59):
I was baking bread.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:00):
Beth Demme (37:01):
Baking Barley bread.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:02):
... in her little in dress, so cute.
Beth Demme (37:04):
No, I wasn't in apron.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:06):
It was cool. She was doing it for her congregation. It was part of our sermon. It's pretty epic.
Beth Demme (37:11):
Yeah, there's a whole lesson around John 6, where Jesus takes the five Barley loaves and two dried fish. It was a whole thing, anyway.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:17):
That's pretty cool.
Beth Demme (37:17):
I recently found out that there is an app called Swimply. Okay. And this is again, we're not sponsored by them. We're not making a pitch for them. It just was an idea that I was like, "Oh, it's like Airbnb. But for pools." So, you go on this app, and you're like, "Okay, I'd like to have access to a pool for an hour. And you pay through the app and everything, and people can like list their pools."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:40):
Beth Demme (37:41):
Yeah. I mean, I know that we're in like a gig economy.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:43):
Beth Demme (37:44):
But this is taking that to the next level, I think.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:47):
Interesting, huh? Did you download it? Was there any Tallahassee?
Beth Demme (37:51):
I haven't downloaded it yet.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:52):
Beth Demme (37:53):
And I don't think I'm going to list my pool.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:55):
Beth Demme (37:55):
But it was still just an interesting concept...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:58):
Yeah. It is.
Beth Demme (37:59):
... because they say the average is like $40 to $45 an hour, I would guess it's probably less than Tallahassee, if there are any. And people put pictures of their pool just like they would for Airbnb. Anyway, I'll put a link to this little article...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:11):
Beth Demme (38:12):
... in our show notes in case other people are curious about it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:14):
But what I've learned about people with pools is, they have... Because we've gone through a couple of pools with the nibbling, is people, at least people we know are like, "Yes, please come use our pool." People want their pool to be used.
Beth Demme (38:27):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:28):
So, it's interesting, I don't know that I would want strangers coming to my pool.
Beth Demme (38:32):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:33):
I'm not sure about that concept.
Beth Demme (38:35):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:36):
But I understand the concept that people with pools do want them to be used and enjoyed. So, this would be a way for it to be enjoyed by people.
Beth Demme (38:45):
Yeah. And it's another way to monetize something, which is also a little bit like, "Oh, I have to think a little bit about how I feel about that." But, I guess a lot of people have pools that aren't getting used. And so, why not?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:57):
Yeah, that's one thing I never wanted a pool.
Beth Demme (38:59):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:59):
Too much maintenance. I don't enjoy pools swimming myself. I don't want my dogs...
Beth Demme (39:05):
Yeah, that's why you didn't get in with the nibbling.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:07):
It is a whole thing to swim because then you're all wet. And then, you got to go change, and then shower. It's like a whole thing. It's like, I have to be really... To me, if I'm going to get wet into a pool, I want to go to like waterpark. I want to do a whole day thing. And I need a lot of bang for my buck. And we're going kayaking in Colorado. Not kayaking, we're going whitewater rafting, and I'm probably, get really wet. But that's the whole thing, that's totally worth it.
Beth Demme (39:35):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:35):
For me, it has to be worth it to do the whole pool thing.
Beth Demme (39:39):
Yeah, I love having a pool. But when my kids were little, I loved it less because it was exhausting to be in the pool with them. And now, though, like yeah, I can go float in the pool for 45 minutes or an hour at the end of the day. And it's convenient because it's right there. It's right outside my bedroom.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:54):
Do you get wet when you float?
Beth Demme (39:56):
Yeah, I do.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:57):
Beth Demme (39:57):
Yeah. I mean, I wear a bathing suit when I go in. I take bathing suit off and runs off and put on clothes. Actually, I usually put on my pajamas.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:04):
Nice. It would be easier if I have my own pool, then, yeah. I would go... And then, before I was going to shower, anyways.
Beth Demme (40:10):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:10):
Yeah, that would make more sense. But, it's also a bit so hot. I didn't want to get in that pool. I mean, I knew I'd feel cool, but I'm like, "I like your shaded area." That was enjoyable.
Beth Demme (40:19):
Yeah. It's really nice when it's hot out though, because... And I'm floating. This is probably too much information about like, the bottom half of me vertically, that like a slice of me is in the water, like I'm laying down on the floor.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:31):
Beth Demme (40:32):
So, that part of me is cool.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:33):
Beth Demme (40:34):
And then, the top of me is hot, and it's like it balances out. It's perfect.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:37):
Yeah. No, I can see that for sure. That would be fun. At the end of each episode, we end with questions for reflection. These are questions based on today's show that Beth will read and leave a little pause between or you can find a PDF on our Buy me Coffee Page.
Beth Demme (40:51):
Number one, what does dress for the job you want, not the job you have, mean to you? Do you see it as a positive or a negative? Number two, have you ever been told to dress for the job you want? How did that feel? Number three, have you ever said this phrase to someone? Why? And number four, what are your thoughts on the American Dream concept that more is better?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:17):
This has been the Discovering Our Scars Podcast. Thank you for joining us.