Questions for Reflection
Each episode we offer you a few prompts to think about how that day's conversation applies to you. Our supporters over at Buy Me a Coffee now have exclusive access to the PDF versions of all our Questions for Reflection. Join us today!
Steph & Beth (00:03):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars Podcast.
Beth Demme (00:06):
Where we have honest conversations about things that make us different.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:10):
Our mission is to talk about things you might relate to, but that you don't hear discussed in other places.
Beth Demme (00:14):
Our hope is that you're encouraged to have honest conversations with people in your own life. I'm Beth.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:19):
And I'm Steph. On today's show, we're going to have an honest conversation titled, "Love? Actually..."
Beth Demme (00:25):
Then we'll share a slice of life and the show will close with questions for a reflection where we will invite you to reflect on the conversation in your own life.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:33):
All right, Beth. I have a question for you.
Beth Demme (00:35):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:36):
So this is something that I don't ask people often and I feel uncomfortable asking, and I also feel uncomfortable saying it. So I'm going to just say it right now. Are you ready?
Beth Demme (00:48):
I don't know. Now, I'm nervous.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:51):
I feel awkward saying it, and my hands are clammy. I don't like saying these things, so I think it's a great way of starting.
Beth Demme (01:00):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:01):
Beth, do you love me?
Beth Demme (01:02):
I do love you. I love you so much. I'm sorry that you had to ask me. You should just know. You should know that you are loved by me.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:09):
Are you shoulding on me?
Beth Demme (01:11):
Yes, I am.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:12):
You should know. Well, I don't like asking that and I also don't like telling people I love them, but I do because I find it's important to do. But as much as I don't like talking about love, guess what we're talking about today?
Beth Demme (01:27):
Steph & Beth (01:27):
Beth Demme (01:28):
Actually. One of the things that has surprised me about my teenagers, right? My son actually, by the time this episode comes out, he'll be 19, which is crazy to me. He's going to be in the last year of his teens. But he and his friends regularly say I love you. It's a part of their regular dynamic and conversation. There are no gender issues involved in it and there's no uncomfortable romance stuff about it. It's like they end their conversations with I love you.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:59):
Beth Demme (01:59):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:00):
Like on the phone and in person? Is it like, "I love you, man"?
Beth Demme (02:05):
Sometimes it's like that and sometimes it's like-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:07):
I love you.
Beth Demme (02:08):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:08):
What? Oh my gosh. I have to hear this.
Beth Demme (02:11):
They're very casual about it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:12):
Can you record this? I can't even fathom it.
Beth Demme (02:17):
Yeah. I mean, can you imagine like two 17, 18, 19-year-old guys saying to each other like, "I love you" in a very sincere way
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:26):
Beth Demme (02:27):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:27):
Wow. I'm so shocked and impressed and excited for them, and feel like there's hope for our future that people won't feel uncomfortable asking and saying it. Wow.
Beth Demme (02:40):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:41):
Well, I'm impressed. How about your daughter? Does she do that with her friends?
Beth Demme (02:45):
I haven't heard it with her, I don't think. Maybe I need to be listening in on her conversations more.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:51):
Yeah. I'm not sure why you're not doing that, because she's what, 16?
Beth Demme (02:54):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:55):
That's an important age to listen into conversations.
Beth Demme (02:57):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:58):
And also track their phone.
Beth Demme (02:59):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:02):
When I was a kid, we didn't have all the technology that you have available to you. There's also cameras that look like little bears that you can put around.
Beth Demme (03:09):
Like nanny cams?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:09):
Yeah. So there's a lot of things available to you. Also, by the way. Don't do any of that.
Beth Demme (03:13):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:16):
So we're talking about love today. Actually, that's what we're talking about. We really are. It's not a joke. So I want to know when... What's the first thing you think of when you hear or say the word love? What's the first thing that comes to mind?
Beth Demme (03:29):
Okay. This is going to sound like a made-up pastor answer, but this is my real true answer and that's the first thing I think of when I hear the word love is I think about the bible verse in 1st John that says God is love.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:42):
So this is a podcast so people can't hear an eye roll, but...
Beth Demme (03:47):
Your eyes are rolling?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:47):
Beth Demme (03:48):
So there was an eye roll on that one. That was great. It was good.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:51):
But it's very true.
Beth Demme (03:52):
It is true. God is love. We try so hard to understand love and we try so hard to understand God and I think we end up putting love in a box, and we put God in a box, and it's all beyond our understanding.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:03):
Yes, okay. Now, I'm taking a step back and I'm realizing that's true. God, love, I could see that connection there, and I think it's important. That's probably one that we need put on top of the list when we think of love. But I was looking for a different answer. I wonder if you can find that answer or if you just wanted me to tell you that answer.
Beth Demme (04:20):
Yeah. What's the first thing you think of when you hear the word love?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:22):
I think typically when people hear the word love, they think of romantic love. So their love between like a man and a woman, a woman and woman, a man and man, people. People that are in a romantic relationship are not family members, are not related in any way shape or form.
Beth Demme (04:38):
Right. Like a love story. Like a movie or a book.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:42):
Beth Demme (04:43):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:44):
The Notebook. I'm not going to lie. That's a good movie.
Beth Demme (04:48):
It is a good movie.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:49):
It's a good movie.
Beth Demme (04:50):
You know what, Nicholas Sparks knows how to weave a tale.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:53):
Yeah, and you can't go wrong with those two actors. I mean, they got some skill. So when you were talking about God, you were saying we put God in a box, we put love in a box. And I think that about love. Like I said, I feel like most people when they hear the word love, the first connection is romantic love. And I think just with The Notebook, I think that's what TV shows, that's what movies, that's what music reinforced that love is romantic love.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:20):
I mean, when I was in middle school, I started getting into music. That was the first time I ever really liked music and I loved country music. So in fact, that would have been '90s country music. At the time, it was just new country music.
Beth Demme (05:33):
Right. On the record, that is my favorite kind of country music and it is my favorite kind of music actually.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:38):
Beth Demme (05:39):
Yes, '90s country, if I... That's, yeah. I didn't know we had that in common. Maybe it's not still your jam, but I'm just telling you, it's the best.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:46):
Also, Daniel, who we've had on the show twice, my bro he loves '90s country as well.
Beth Demme (05:51):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:51):
Beth Demme (05:52):
I like him even more now.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:53):
I know. He sent me a video clip and it had a Jo Dee Messina song in it. Yes.
Beth Demme (05:59):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:00):
And I was like, "That's Joe De Messina?" And he was like, "Oh, '90s country is my jam. I was like, "What? Me too."
Beth Demme (06:07):
She had that song about the fireworks.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:10):
Well, are you thinking of Independence Day by Martina McBride?
Beth Demme (06:13):
That's the one I'm thinking of.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:15):
Yeah. That's an intense one.
Beth Demme (06:15):
That's the one I'm thinking of.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:16):
That's a good one. Where it's like a whole story.
Beth Demme (06:19):
Yeah, a whole story. That's why I like those songs because I like the storytelling aspect of it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:23):
Well, then obviously, you're going to get my example. So in middle school, when I'm starting to like, I'm growing up, I'm listening to music, all country music is about romantic love or losing it or some, some sad, sad story, or some good story because we're drinking. There's a lot of things, but a lot of it is about romantic love. So growing up, that was very like influential of like, "Oh, this is how love happens." You check yes or no for loving someone. The Tim McGraw song. That's a good one.
Beth Demme (06:58):
That's a good one.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:58):
But that was my upbringing of like this is love. So anyways, I think we put love in a box, like you said. And we, I think from a young age, we look at love as like romantic love. And there's so many aspects of love. And the older I get, the more I'm shedding that like preconceived notion that the world has taught me about love, that this is the only thing that love can be. And if you don't have this, then you're not a worthy human being. Obviously, I think everybody knows I'm not married.
Beth Demme (07:31):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:32):
Yet. I have two dogs.
Beth Demme (07:35):
Neither of whom you're married to.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:36):
No, no. Not married to them. I do love them, but I do think love for an animal is different than love for a person. So I do love them. I take care of them obviously. I would protect them.
Beth Demme (07:48):
You're a very good dog owner.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:50):
Yes, but I'm a dog "owner," exactly and they are not my children, but they're good tools to learn how to love a human and to take care of another thing. I still think they're good for those things, but I don't use them as a replacement for people.
Beth Demme (08:09):
So what did you learn from those country music songs though? What is love?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:17):
I think if you asked me in middle school, when I heard those songs, I would have a whole different answer. I don't think I knew what love is. I don't think I truly knew what it was until I got to a certain age. I don't think I really fully understood love when I was younger. Obviously, I felt love for my parents, but it was unconditional. It wasn't like I had to earn their love. I knew they loved me and they would do anything for me. But I never really understood that. It just seemed like of course, my parents loved me. They're my parents.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:54):
They brought me in this world. Of course, they love me. So I never really fully understood that love. And I had the luxury. I mean, I know that that's not the norm that people just automatically get that love from their parents. I mean, at the time I thought it was just... Obviously, every parents. So growing up, I didn't really realize how special that was to have the love for my parents. But I think for me like the turning point for me when I truly was like, this is love. This is what love feels like was when my first nephew was born.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:32):
I wasn't at the hospital, but I saw him... Because I was living in Orlando at the time and they were in Tallahassee. The first time I got to see him was just like a couple days later. The moment I saw him, I just felt like a connection that I had never felt to another person. It was like I would do anything for him. He's the most special. It was a feeling that I can't put into words because it was like this feeling. It was a such a huge internal struggle for me because I went back to Orlando, and I was living in Orlando.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:11):
Every time I was away from him, I just felt like my heart was in Tallahassee and I was living in Orlando, and it was just like this constant struggle. Then my second nephew was born and that was even harder. I felt the same connection to him and then I did ultimately move to Tallahassee and my niece was born. I still obviously feel connected to her in the same way. So those three little humans definitely was when I first realized what love was, when I first really felt it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:38):
Then I could acknowledge it now even better like in other people. Obviously, for my parents and those kind of things. It was like in that moment, when I was meeting these new human beings that were part of me in some small way, that was really the moment that I truly understood what love was and is, and can recognize it better in other people. How about for you?
Beth Demme (11:05):
Well, I don't know if this was part of that moment for you, but that idea of seeing an infant and you know they haven't done anything to earn your love and there isn't anything that they can do that would make you not love them. That sense of unconditional love, I experienced that when I became a mom. I was actually at a real low point. I was really struggling with anger. I joke about it now, but I don't like three-year-olds. I don't like the potty training age. I was not good at it. I joke that if I ever get to be a grandma, I'm not doing that year.
Beth Demme (11:40):
So I was at a real low point. I remember feeling this deep sense of love for my children and also a deep sense of inadequacy in how I was serving them as a mom or being their mom. I was praying about it and I had this strong sense of what I would call the Holy Spirit, (you can call it whatever you want to), call it of God walking me through that. "Well, what did your children do to earn your love?" Nothing. "What can they do that would make you not love them?" This love is unconditional. And then the sense of God saying, "That's how I feel about you."
Beth Demme (12:23):
I think when I was growing up, I think even now, I think my parents... My dad has passed away, but my mom still to this day, I think offers me unconditional love. And yet, I was not good at receiving it that way. There was something in me that felt like it was conditional. Even though that's not how they were offering it. So that was a real breakthrough moment for me to understand unconditional love, first as a mom and then to understand it as a child of God and then to understand it as the child of my parents. That was a really profound moment in my life to really understand unconditional love.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:02):
I think when I was growing up, one of the things was understood that you love family. It was understood that when you see family, you say, "Oh, we love you. Good to see you or see you later." It was just understood that that's who you love as your family. I never really... Those are just words and there was nothing to back that up. I didn't feel love for those people because I barely ever saw those people. So growing up, it was confusing to be told to love these people yet it's people I spend the least amount of time with.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:38):
I mean, I can definitely tell you certain family members that I do truly love now that it's taken me a long time to really say... For me, I am uncomfortable with saying and expressing love. And I think it's because when I say "I love you," it's for real. I say it and it's a feeling inside because I know that I really mean it. So it's not easy for me to say because I feel it when I say it. But so many people easily just say, "Oh, I love you. See you later. Oh, I love you." And to me I don't say it just flippantly. It's a very heartfelt thing. When I used to meet with my sponsor, she's very loving and loves everybody, and in a good way.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:27):
She would always just gush about how she loves me in a very honest way. I would rarely say I love you to her because it's a lot. I don't just say it every time. It takes a lot out of me to say it. I don't know if other people are like that or why I'm like that, but for me to say it, it's a gulp moment. I truly love you and I'm feeling it all in this moment when I say it. So I would say it to her, but not in every second or anything.
Beth Demme (14:58):
When I was growing up, no one ever left the house without saying "I love you." It was almost like saying goodbye. You would just say, "I love you." Now, remember, I'm the youngest of four and even though there's a big age gap, my siblings lived at home until they were well into their 20s. So we always had, at least six of us living in the same house. We had this screen door that the spring was broken on it and so it would slam. So you'd go out the kitchen. You'd be like, "I love you", slam. It was like an exclamation point "I love you!"
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:36):
See, and to me like we would possibly do that. I can't even remember now how often we said, "I love you" in my family thinking back to it, but I don't know when something is overused, I feel like it loses meaning. For me, I have no problem with people saying say what you want to say, say how you want to say it, but I feel like if I say it every time, it just loses that true meaning of what it is. So I think that's why I don't say it as often. I kind of reserve it for not every day. There's still parts of me that's like very uncomfortable this conversation. This is like my period episode.
Beth Demme (16:18):
I'm glad to know that actually. I'm glad that there's something that has made you uncomfortable.
Beth Demme (16:22):
I think that hearing I love you all the time when I was growing up, did create a sense of a safety net for me and helped lay a foundation for me to really understand unconditional love. But you got to a point where you understood unconditional love.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:37):
Well, you know what's interesting is I am someone that really believes that actions speak louder than words. So if you just always tell me you love me, but there's nothing to back it up, then it's just empty words. I guess it's also part of why I don't say I love you because I try to show that I love you through my actions. I try to show you that I love you by getting the podcast edited on time knowing what your schedule is so that I can give you plenty of time to do your part. Those kind of things. That's how I-
Beth Demme (17:03):
This nice mic stand that you got us.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:05):
Beth Demme (17:06):
Yes. It's really nice though. It's really nice.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:07):
And try to make a good environment. Those are the ways that I show you I love you so I don't just say it. I show it in actions. For me, I don't really feel love when you say, "I love you". That's cool. I feel kind of like okay. And I'm totally fine. Use it. But I feel loved actually when someone does something for me. When somebody actively... If someone took out the trash for me. I would be like, "Oh, wow. I don't have to do that." So for me, acts of service is a way that I feel love. Almost 10 years ago where I was talking with, I think it was my aunt actually, and we were talking about love and just kind of that kind of thing. She told me about this thing called The Five Love Languages.
Beth Demme (17:56):
Yeah, by Gary Chapman.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:57):
Yeah. And I was like, "What is that?" And she's like, "Yeah, it's a quiz you can take to see how you feel loved." And I was like, "What?" So I took it real quick. It's an easy thing you can do online.
Beth Demme (18:07):
And who doesn't love an online quiz? Hello?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:10):
Yeah. And it's really easy. You don't have to sign up for anything. I took it and that's when I truly learned. I knew I felt love when people would do things for me, but that's where I was able to actually visibly see that my top thing is acts of service. That's how I feel love is acts of service. And when we were planning for this episode, I actually took it again to see if it changed. It did not change. Still acts of service are how I feel loved.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:32):
So I find that like I love tools like that where I can actually... It gives me some... Especially with a concept like love. I love somebody. How do I show them that? I'll just keep saying it. So for me, I feel love when people do things for me. But for example someone that I love is my mom. She's actually taken the love languages test and she feels love by words of encouragement.
Beth Demme (18:55):
Yeah, me too.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:56):
Or words of affirmation.
Beth Demme (18:58):
Words of affirmation. And I'm the same way, words of affirmation.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:59):
That means like if I did something for you, you'd be like, "Cool, thanks", but you wouldn't feel love from it. But if I was like, "Beth, you did a really great job on the last episode. The graphic was like on point. This is my favorite part about it."
Beth Demme (19:12):
Oh my gosh, I would be like soaring to the sky if you said that to me.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:14):
And I realized that I need to do that more often because I don't say anything about the graphics, and they're all great, and I need to actually acknowledge it.
Beth Demme (19:21):
But also you don't need to say it just to say it, right?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:27):
No. And that's part of it is I actually will go out of my way to... And it's hard because that words of affirmation are not high on my list. So it's not a huge deal for me to hear good job. So I don't think of it right away. I think of like, "Well, let me do something for my mom." So I will have to go out of my way sometimes to think of how can I say something positive to my mom so she knows I love her, but it's not just empty. It needs to have context. It's not just like, "Good job." That's not enough. I know that it has to be something sincere and that you've thought of, that you're truly are affirming.
Beth Demme (20:06):
So The Five Love Languages in Dr. Chapman's system are:acts of service, words of affirmation, physical touch, quality time and receiving gifts. I was surprised when I took the quiz because I got a zero percent on receiving gifts, and I didn't realize how low that was sort of in my-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:31):
That's not even in it.
Beth Demme (20:31):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:32):
It's not low, it's zero. It's not even in it.
Beth Demme (20:33):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:34):
It doesn't even exist.
Beth Demme (20:35):
Which is weird because Christmas is my favorite time and the gift exchange is one of my favorite things about it. I don't know. Maybe there's something in there in terms of acts of service. I don't know. But I had my daughter take this also. And I would have guessed that her number one love language is physical touch because she's a super cuddler and I'm right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:55):
Beth Demme (20:56):
Her love language is physical touch, which is ironic to me because when she was a baby, she didn't like to be held. She didn't want to be rocked to sleep. I think because of her time in the orphanage, she just was used to falling asleep in her own space. We couldn't even be in her room. You're like, I wanted to watch her, make sure she was okay, but she couldn't fall asleep if somebody was in there. And now though, she's an absolute cuddle bug. She's always hugging and snuggling and it's wonderful. I love it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:26):
Wow, that's very interesting. Like you were saying, you could have your top one, but it also breaks down in percentages how high you are on the other ones. For me, my very last one is physical touch at 3%. So don't get around me. What was your percentage of physical touch?
Beth Demme (21:45):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:45):
20%. Well, that's not bad. Oh, yeah. Yours was like 40, 20, 20, 20, right?
Beth Demme (21:49):
Yeah. So sort of evenly split between acts of service, physical touch, and quality time. I think if I were guessing, I would say that my husband's number one is quality time and that physical touch would be second because time is a big deal to him.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:05):
I think the only reason I even have 3% on physical touch because one of the questions was to have your back rubbed and that's one of my favorite things. Me and my mom will do that. We will watch YouTube videos and she will scratch my back.
Beth Demme (22:17):
Oh, I love that.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:20):
That's the only thing I will allow. If anyone wants to scratch my back, I'm fine with that.
Beth Demme (22:24):
So your number one was acts of service and your number two was-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:27):
Beth Demme (22:28):
... quality time.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:29):
27%. So right now, I feel love because we're spending time together.
Beth Demme (22:33):
It's one of the best things about the podcast is our time together.
Beth Demme (22:37):
So we think it's a really great tool. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. It's helpful to know the people who you love. It's helpful to know what their love language is so that you can express it in a way that they can really receive it, because if someone thought, "Oh, I really want to..." We'll say my husband. My husband really was like "Oh, I just want to show Beth how much I love her. I'm going to buy her this incredible gift." I'd be like, "Neat."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:01):
Beth Demme (23:01):
A gift. With our joint account. Fantastic.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:05):
I think you just gave him a pass to never buy you anything for any holidays ever again. That's good.
Beth Demme (23:10):
Well, except for big anniversaries. We just had our 25th wedding anniversary and I was pretty clear that that was a gift-giving occasion. But on our very first wedding anniversary, he gave me a ream of paper. So ever since then, I've not been into the gifts. Because the official theme or whatever for your first anniversary is paper.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:28):
He could have gotten a little bit deeper on that one.
Beth Demme (23:31):
He really could have.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:32):
He really could have. That's a very man move there. I hope he's gotten a little bit better.
Beth Demme (23:37):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:37):
What was this year's?
Beth Demme (23:39):
This year for our 25th anniversary, he bought me really nice diamond earrings.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:42):
So obviously earrings, that's pretty awesome. I'm assuming you've had many occasions recently to wear those earrings.
Beth Demme (23:49):
I wear them all the time. If I am going to be out and have to wear a mask because they have the screw backs and so I know that they'll stay on. Actually there's like a really wonderful practical side to them too.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:02):
Nice. Are you wearing them now?
Beth Demme (24:03):
I am not because they don't work well with the headphones.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:05):
Beth Demme (24:06):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:06):
I was just thinking that. I was like you probably don't wear them here.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:10):
So Beth, we've talked about a little bit about different types of love. Also, love of friends I think is huge.
Beth Demme (24:16):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:18):
And I have some really good friends that I definitely love and tell them at certain times, not all the time. But we did start out with what do we think people think of with love, and it is romantic love is what we kind of think. So have you experienced romantic love, Beth?
Beth Demme (24:34):
I have. I've been in love with my husband for a long, long, long time. Actually, we started dating when I was 16 and I really do actually believe that I fell in love with him then. I knew that it was a different relationship than other relationships because I just wanted to spend time with him. I had all these great friends, people who were fun to be around and I did spend time with them, but if given the choice between hanging out with them or being with him, I would have chosen him every time. I was like, "Oh, this is different. This is different." And then something would happen and I couldn't wait to tell him. It was just that kind of thing.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:10):
So do you remember life before romantic love? Did you even have a life before that? 16 is like...
Beth Demme (25:18):
It's really young, right?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:19):
Beth Demme (25:20):
Well, I think before that I was looking for a relationship because in high school people start pairing off or whatever. And like, "Oh, yeah. It's fun to have a boyfriend." So I think I was looking for the fun of that, but not really looking for love. I mean I don't think I was looking for love in all the wrong places either. I just wasn't looking for love. I just wanted to be somebody's girlfriend.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:41):
You're going to math class. You had other things going on too.
Beth Demme (25:45):
Right. I just wanted somebody to go to the dances with and somebody to hang out with.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:52):
Well, it's interesting that you've basically had romantic love for the majority of your life. Well, definitely the whole of your adult life.
Beth Demme (26:00):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:01):
So I'm curious what your thoughts are on Valentine's Day.
Beth Demme (26:05):
Yeah. So Valentine's Day is tricky and I'm just now making the connection that maybe it's not that meaningful to me because gifts are not one of my love languages. I actually have gotten to the point where I'm like, "Hey, can our Valentine's Day gift to each other be that we don't get each other anything for Valentine's Day?" Because I don't know what to get him. I don't know what to ask for. I don't know what to suggest. And then with our kids, it's like you celebrate Valentine's Day because it's another thing you can celebrate. But it's not one of my top holidays, right? What do you think about it?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:43):
I'm not a huge fan of most holidays now that I'm thinking about it.
Beth Demme (26:47):
You're such a curmudgeon.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:49):
Do you know my favorite holiday? Have I said it?
Beth Demme (26:52):
Oh, wait. I feel like I should know this. I think your favorite holiday... I have no idea what your favorite holiday is.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:03):
The Fourth of July.
Beth Demme (27:05):
That's why I don't know because that's very random. Why is the Fourth of July your favorite holiday?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:09):
Well, we have started to do an annual tradition at my house since I bought this house and we have a little parade around my house, which is very small. So it's a funny parade and we play The Star-Spangled Banner and we just like-
Beth Demme (27:21):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:23):
My brother, his wife, and kids, and my parents, and the dogs now. Well, one dog. I didn't have Tosh.
Beth Demme (27:30):
So it was just Mac.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:31):
Yeah. Every year, it looked a little different but we always do some kind of element of that. It's very like low-key and it's not like we don't get gifts. Fourth of July is not like a giant holiday in the sense of like a ton of stuff is sold and there's tons of... Like all these things.
Beth Demme (27:50):
It's not as commercialized, for sure.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:51):
Yeah, and we've kind of made it like traditions within it in a really fun way. Every year I make a video, and every year our tradition is to watch every video.
Beth Demme (27:59):
Oh, that's awesome.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:00):
So in the video, there will also be footage of us watching all the other videos. It's pretty fun. It's pretty cool. So it's kind of been a fun thing to watch every year because you could see the kids grow up and stuff like that. So that's my favorite holiday because it's not super commercialized. So anyways, my thoughts on Valentine's Day, I don't love Valentine's Day because overall, I'm not a huge fan of most holidays because I feel like they're over-commercialized. So I definitely think Valentine's Day is over-commercialized and I feel like it focuses way too much on romantic love and not about love of your friend or your sister, or your brother, or that kind of love. I've never seen it that way. I've always seen it as like romantic love or when you're in school, you give little candies to your class.
Beth Demme (28:47):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:48):
Which was fun. I do remember that was fun in school.
Beth Demme (28:50):
It was fun.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:51):
It was something different.
Beth Demme (28:52):
Yeah. In elementary school, it's so fun to have. Just today, that's different because they all kind of blend together.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:57):
Yeah, exactly. So whatever it was. So I'm not a big fan of it. I feel like it's just kind of commercialized. Although my birthday is a few days after on the 17th.
Beth Demme (29:07):
Right. It's coming up.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:10):
So growing up, my birthday cake would always be a discounted Valentine's Day cake. So a heart cake, which it sounds sad, but I actually really liked it. At first, I was kind of like, "Can we get like maybe an on-sale cake?" Or not an on-sale cake, but we didn't have a lot of money. So if I wanted a cake, it was a heart cake. So that's kind of a fun tradition. We kind of go out of our way now to do that even though-
Beth Demme (29:34):
To get the like day old Valentine's cake?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:37):
Last year we couldn't find anything and so we just had to find something that was heart shaped. We couldn't find any cakes that were... Yeah. So it's sometimes hard because things sell out and they're buying correct quantities so they don't have them anymore.
Beth Demme (29:51):
I'm shocked that Vicki did not make your birthday cake.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:54):
She did sometimes.
Beth Demme (29:55):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:55):
Yeah. When I was younger, she made a lot of cool stuff like a Barbie in the middle of a cake.
Beth Demme (30:03):
Where the whole dress is like the cake?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:06):
Yeah. She made a lot growing up, but this is more like when I was middle school, high school and it's like we don't care anymore.
Beth Demme (30:16):
But maybe Valentine's Day does teach us something about love because if you think about the aisle that you get your Valentine's Day cards on, which you're not going to do because that's commercialized, right? What a waste of money to spend $5 on a card.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:30):
I mean, I don't want to sound like the worst. If you feel led to get someone a card, I think that's part of it is like if you feel like you should, I don't like that." When society tells you, you should do something, I don't like that. If you feel led to buy someone a card because you love them and a $5 card because you love them, do it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:55):
There's times where I just like feel like I want to give someone a gift and it might be for a holiday, it might just be random and I'll do it. Just because I get someone a gift for this holiday, doesn't mean I have to do it every single holiday or every single year. For me, it's a feeling. If I feel like I want to do this and I feel like led to do it, I'm going to do it, but I don't do it because I should. And that's what I feel like the over commercialized makes us feel like we should.
Beth Demme (31:22):
I do think there's a lot of truth in that. The thing about the cards though is that there are all kinds of different relationships represented and that's kind of something that we've been talking about like romantic love between a couple, but then... Spoiler alert, mom if you're listening. I got my mom a Valentine's Day card because we don't live in the same town, and with my dad having passed away nobody is going to get her a Valentine's Day card and that was part of their tradition. So I don't want her to have a sad day, so I'm going to send her a card. So that kind of-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:53):
Yeah, I think that's great.
Beth Demme (31:54):
... parent-child love is represented there. Valentine's Day cards for friends. All of those different kinds of relationships that can be loving relationships are represented there.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:07):
Well, I do love the new kind of tradition that's happened with Galentine's Day.
Beth Demme (32:12):
I was going to ask about that, yeah. With you and your ladies, do you do any kind of Galentine's Day?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:15):
We don't, but I do love the concept and I really approve of that concept. The only part that I don't. So there's a show called Parks and Recreation that was on years ago. And in that show, Amy Poehler's character came up with this thing called Galentine's Day where all their gal pals would get together and go out and have fun. And it kind of took off. That's the initiation. That's where it started.
Beth Demme (32:43):
I didn't know where it came from. That's interesting.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:45):
Yeah, that's where it started. It's really taken off and it's like a thing. So I really think it's cool to celebrate with your gals with your bros, whatever. I think that's very cool. I don't love when it's like all girls get together. Sometimes it's like, "We're singles and we don't need men." I don't think it even has to be about that we don't have men. It's just like we are friends and we're going to spend some fun times together showing how much we love each other kind of thing.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:17):
But I approve of that and I love how it came about too because it was very innocent like how it came about. Just in a show as like someone wrote it off and now it's like this huge thing. So that's less commercial to me. It's more like it's just like a cool happenstance. Kind of like the holiday, May the 4th.
Beth Demme (33:32):
May the 4th be with you?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:33):
Beth Demme (33:33):
The Star Wars theme.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:33):
That came up so random. I think that's so funny how it came about. So I will tell you May the 4th be with you.
Beth Demme (33:43):
What about Pi Day on March 14th. How do you feel about that?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:46):
I didn't know that was a thing.
Beth Demme (33:47):
Yeah 3.14. So it's interesting to me that Galentine's Day came from a show because I think typically what we learn about love from shows, from TV shows, from movies, from songs, isn't always helpful that it has to be romantic or that it has to involve conflict, because that's what makes a good story is conflict. So a lot of times that's what we see portrayed. So this idea that friends celebrating each other on Valentine's Day that came from a TV show, I like that.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:20):
I know I think there are changes happening actually with the movie Frozen, Disney's Frozen. You've heard of that, right?
Beth Demme (34:27):
I think I've heard of that. Yeah, I think I've heard of it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:30):
So I mean that was a big deal when the first movie was not focused on Elsa finding a man.
Beth Demme (34:34):
And that was like a subplot like they were poking fun at that whole idea.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:39):
And then in the second movie, it was not about Elsa finding love. And Anna already had love. That wasn't what it was about. It was about sister love. That was the main focus of that movie. That was huge. That was a huge moment. I mean, I love the movie. Number one because Elsa is Idina Menzel and she's my favorite singer. So that's why I love the movie. The second, it's a good movie.
Beth Demme (35:00):
I still haven't seen the second one.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:02):
The second one might be better than the first.
Beth Demme (35:04):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:04):
It's really good. It's on Disney+ so you really have no excuse.
Beth Demme (35:07):
I really have no excuse.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:08):
And you have a media room. Oh my goodness. You have a giant screen.
Beth Demme (35:11):
I have a place to watch it. I have-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:14):
The account to watch it.
Beth Demme (35:15):
I have the account to watch it with. I really do have no excuse.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:17):
Do you have popcorn? Probably in the pantry.
Beth Demme (35:20):
I have popcorn.
Beth Demme (35:21):
So you asked me about romantic love. So I'm just going to put you on the spot and say, "Steph, have you ever been in love in romantic love?"
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:30):
That is so inappropriate, Beth. I can't believe you even asked that.
Beth Demme (35:34):
Well, guess what? I did ask it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:35):
That is so inappropriate.
Beth Demme (35:36):
People want to know. People want to know this.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:38):
No one wants to know.
Beth Demme (35:39):
Everyone wants to know this.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:40):
No one cares. So what was your question actually?
Beth Demme (35:43):
Have you ever been in romantic love?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:45):
Beth Demme (35:46):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:47):
I love people and I have experienced love. But have I ever been in love with a man? I guess you're assuming.
Beth Demme (35:53):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:54):
A human man?
Beth Demme (35:56):
Yeah. You said in another episode that people have told you that you were a lesbian, which I think is so weird. So I don't want to close any doors for you.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:05):
There are no open or closed doors. I've told you. Yes, a human man is what you're referring to.
Beth Demme (36:13):
Yes. So have you ever been in love with a man?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:15):
I have not been in love, no.
Beth Demme (36:17):
Have you ever told a man that you loved him?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:20):
I've told him man I love them, but I wasn't in love with them. It was like a friend. I have friends that I love that are men.
Beth Demme (36:26):
Okay. But what about somebody you were in a relationship with like someone you were dating?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:31):
I don't think so. If I did, I didn't really mean it because there's no one that I have dated that I was in love with. If I told them I love them, then it was not accurate. I don't think I did.
Beth Demme (36:43):
Did you ever think you were in love?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:45):
There was one time where I thought I had love at first sight. Where I was meeting somebody. It was like a blind date thing and we were meeting at a coffee shop. He walked in and I just like... It was that moment where everyone around you disappears and you just see the person, they're walking slow motion. I was like, "Oh my gosh. This is the guy." Obviously, it's not the guy because we're not together now.
Beth Demme (37:09):
Was he super cute or something? What do you attribute that too?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:13):
I thought he was attractive. I'm attracted to kind of nerdy, not the person on the People magazine, hottest whatever. That's not the guy I'm attracted to. Overly attractive, I'm not attracted to. But someone that's kind of nerdy, kind of like... I don't know. Nerdy but not too nerdy, would be my jam. I don't know. I have no idea. I don't know if it just was where I was in space in my life at that point, that that moment happened, or I don't know. We went out a couple times, but it wasn't like...
Beth Demme (37:49):
Did you realize pretty quickly then that you weren't actually in love with him?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:52):
I thought I was. He was not as interested. That was the problem. He wasn't as interested in me as I was in him, which typically hasn't happened with me, but in that situation it did. That was a bummer because I was really into him. It didn't work out obviously.
Beth Demme (38:11):
Do you happen to know if he's still single? Maybe it would work out now.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:15):
I think he had issues. I don't think it was me. He's still not married that I know of. I haven't looked him up recently. I literally can't even think of his name right now. I can't think of his name. He was a human man and he had a name and it was very normal.
Beth Demme (38:34):
He was nerdy, but not too nerdy.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:35):
It was like a Michael or a Nick, or something. I don't think that was it. Now, it's going to bother me.
Beth Demme (38:43):
It's going to bother me too, honestly.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:45):
I've never been in love, but I know when I went off to college in Orlando, I was excited about dating. I was like, "Okay. That's the thing. I'm going to do it. I'm going to actively date." I made it a goal because it hadn't been a priority of mine to actively date. It was like a goal. It's like this is what I'm going to do. I quickly started dating someone. And if you've read my book, you know some stuff happened right at the beginning when I started school and that kind of took over. I no longer dated him and I had to deal with all my mental stuff.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:25):
There's never been a time when I was like I am less than for not having romantic love or that I missing out on life. There's definitely a part of me that would love to have a partner and be married one day. I'm ready for it. I would be excited about it, but I don't feel I'm less than for not having that.
Beth Demme (39:47):
Well, let me affirm that. You're definitely not less than.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:51):
I mean, I think it's awesome that you were able to find your person at 16. I think that's amazing and such a cool life story. But that's an interesting question. I was just thinking of that cliché. Wow, what is that? How do you say that? Is it better to have loved than never loved at all?
Beth Demme (40:11):
It's better to.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:12):
Oh, better to love and lost.
Beth Demme (40:14):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:15):
Than never to have loved at all. What do you think?
Beth Demme (40:17):
I have no idea.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:22):
Because you've loved and you haven't lost, so you don't know.
Beth Demme (40:24):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:25):
I guess this is more referring to like... In my mind, it's divorce like is it better to have been married and divorced than to never have been married at all? That's kind of how I interpret it.
Beth Demme (40:35):
I think that the friends I have who have gone through divorce, who have children would say, "Well, that marriage was totally worth it because I got my kids."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:43):
Beth Demme (40:43):
Right? But I don't know about that idea of love and loss. I guess the idea is for some period of time then, you had that love and that that was a good thing and it was a time that you were able to enjoy. It's better to have at least experienced that at some point than to never have had that experience, but I'm not sure.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:07):
I mean, a loss could be from someone passing away.
Beth Demme (41:10):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:10):
For sure that could also be it.
Beth Demme (41:11):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:12):
I mean I think it's too close-minded in my mind to have such a cliché, broad cliché, because I think anyone that has actually loved and lost would probably say like, "Yes, I'm glad I had that experience. I would think the majority of people, I think people that had a bad divorce, maybe not.
Beth Demme (41:31):
Maybe not. But my mom with my dad, she would say that I think for sure. She would say that she was really grateful for every day that they had together and that although, she's sad that he's not alive anymore, that she's grateful for the times that they had. And by the way, their wedding anniversary? July 4th.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:52):
Beth Demme (41:53):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:54):
Well, then they probably do like Fourth of July for many reasons. I guess, if you look at it in that sense, people that have loved and lost would say, yeah. I don't know. You know I'm not a big fan of cliches. The stuff we just say that we don't really interpret, but we just like say it.
Beth Demme (42:16):
Yeah. We say it without thinking about it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (42:18):
Beth Demme (42:18):
Yeah. But maybe the sentiment at the heart of that cliche is positive, because it's a way to focus on the good, to focus on the love rather than on the loss. So maybe the intention at the heart of that is positive.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (42:35):
And it's also focusing on don't not love someone or something because you might not always have it. I think that's also part of it too is encouraging you to let yourself love whatever that might be. It's making me think of past friendships that we're no longer friends, but I loved them. They were the perfect person that I needed during that time period and I still love them, but we're together anymore. We're not friends in the sense I am with other people. But there was nothing like tragic that happened. It just was like, we grew apart.
Beth Demme (43:11):
That has been one of the big learnings of my adult life actually is how friendships can be for a season. In some ways, that's been hard. We should do a whole episode on that because that's been a hard thing for me to wrap my mind around.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (43:24):
Well, if we want to, we'll do it.
Beth Demme (43:26):
Right. We could do an episode on that, I should say. I can't get away from it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (43:29):
So Beth, I just wanted to before we end here, I just wanted to say I really appreciated you showing up today and for your heartfelt discussion that we had, I really felt you connected with this topic and we really were able to discuss, and I just really appreciate you.
Beth Demme (43:50):
Wow, that makes me feel really loved. Thanks. We have so much fun making this podcast and we've heard from some of you that you're wondering what is the best way to support us. So we've decided to expand the podcast experience using buymeacoffee.com. You can go there and buy us a cup of coffee or for stuff, a cup of tea. Or you can actually become a monthly supporter and that will give you access to PDFs of the questions for reflection as well as pictures, outtakes, polls, and more.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (44:22):
The kinds of things that we would put on social media, if we had a social media channel, but we actually don't for the podcast because we decided from the beginning that we didn't want to add to more white noise in your life. So one of the great things about Buy Me a Coffee is that you'll be able to actually get an email when we post new content. You can go straight there and you don't have to deal with ads or being bombarded with other content. You see exactly the content you're looking for without a bunch of distractions. We plan to post probably like once or twice a week and we're excited to get your feedback as members on our Buy Me a Coffee page, which we are lovingly calling our BMAC page.
Beth Demme (44:54):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (44:55):
BMAC. So you'll be able to find a link in our description to find out more and to sign up. I would like to circle back to something that we talked about a couple weeks ago. We had an issue with one of the guests during our show. So one of our guests that is here pretty consistently, they don't really say much.
Beth Demme (45:21):
Sometimes they bark.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (45:23):
But we had a little issue with some smells coming from one of our guests.
Beth Demme (45:27):
Yes. Josh was killing me that day.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (45:31):
So I bought a candle for the next time, for us to take care of that. But she hasn't smelled since I bought the candles. We haven't had to burn the candle.
Beth Demme (45:41):
I mean, it's pretty amazing that just purchasing the candle was enough to fix the problem.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (45:44):
Beth Demme (45:45):
That's pretty remarkable.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (45:46):
I do highly recommend purchasing candles to get rid of smells. But don't burn them because it'll just go away on its own.
Beth Demme (45:51):
That's right. It's just how it works.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (45:52):
Yeah. But I do want to know what it smells like.
Beth Demme (45:56):
I mean, we could just burn the candle.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (45:57):
No. We can't waste the candle. It must be used to balance out smells from dogs.
Beth Demme (46:04):
I hope it doesn't smell like licorice.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:06):
No, ugh. No, it doesn't. It smells like fresh. It smells like a computer. It's called the Mac candle.
Beth Demme (46:13):
Well, I want to smell the candle too, but I don't want to have to smell the other thing. So I may never get to smell the candle if we have to wait for our...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:23):
Beth Demme (46:24):
Our studio mascot.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:26):
Mascot. Oh, we're the Greyhounds.
Beth Demme (46:28):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:28):
That's our mascot.
Beth Demme (46:29):
That's what we should totally be. All right. So I have a weird news thing for you today because you don't want to do that in 2021. So a goal.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:36):
What a goal.
Beth Demme (46:37):
I have the best goals. So this is actually-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:41):
You should have goals.
Beth Demme (46:41):
... a case out of France.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:43):
Beth Demme (46:47):
Well, in America we would say her name is Jean. There's probably a really lovely French way to pronounce it. Unbeknownst to her, she was involved in a legal dispute with a former employee and the employee convinced the court that not only should she win this case against this woman, but that the woman was dead and therefore her husband and her son had to pay the debt. So she has been ruled legally dead by a court without her knowledge, without her ability to participate in the lawsuit. Her lawyer is like, "This is crazy. We've appealed it everywhere." She now can't have a bank account. It's crazy.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:29):
Beth Demme (47:29):
So she's she was ruled dead in 2017 and now she's fighting in the courts to be declared alive.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:35):
Beth Demme (47:36):
Isn't that crazy?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:37):
That seems crazy that you would have to go through all that work to prove, "Hey, I'm talking to you."
Beth Demme (47:42):
I'm alive. It seems like that wouldn't be a hard thing to prove?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:46):
Who is sleeping on the job that you just declare someone dead without having any proof.
Beth Demme (47:51):
That's kind of what her lawyer was saying. He's like-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:52):
Where's the proof?
Beth Demme (47:53):
... this should not be able to happen. We have a sophisticated legal system, this shouldn't happen. So I had never heard of that before, someone having to go to court, for the court to declare that they're alive.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (48:05):
I hope no one's declared me dead. How do you know? Where can we look up to see if we're dead? Google it. We've all googled it. Well, thank you for that. That was weird and legal.
Beth Demme (48:18):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (48:19):
And random. So it all goes along with your-
Beth Demme (48:21):
All the best things.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (48:23):
... stuff there. I did mention it earlier when I was talking about the love conversation that was awkwardly brought up by you, that we talked about not bringing up, yet you brought it up and I feel very upset that that was brought up.
Beth Demme (48:37):
I don't believe you.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (48:39):
No, I told you to ask it, literally. But I mentioned briefly about some stuff that happened to me in college early on. And if you are interested to learn more about that, I actually have a memoir that I wrote that has all of that story and more in it and you can find that anywhere books are sold, Amazon. You can also get copies on my website at smkauthor.com.
Beth Demme (49:03):
And also, if you go to our podcast page, which is Dospod, D-O-S-P-O-D .us. You'll see a link there to buy Discovering My Scars, Steph's memoir.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (49:14):
At the end of each episode, we end with questions for reflection. These are questions based on today's show that Beth will read and we'll have a little pause between. You can find PDF copies on our Buy Me a Coffee page.
Beth Demme (49:25):
Number one, what is the first thing you think of when you hear the word love? Number two, how has the love you received from your parents influenced the way you understand love now? Number three, can you remember a moment when you first really understood what love is? Number four, what makes you feel loved? And number five, is it better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (49:56):
This has been the Discovering Our Scars Podcast. Thank you for joining us.