Questions for Reflection
Each episode we offer you a few prompts to think about how that day's conversation applies to you. Our supporters over at Buy Me a Coffee now have exclusive access to the PDF versions of all our Questions for Reflection. Join us today!
1. What are your prejudices? Are you willing to admit them to yourself or others?
2. Have you experienced prejudice towards yourself? Reflect on that.
3. What past experiences have created your prejudices?
4. Do you think white privilege is real? How has it affected you?
Beth Demme (00:03):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars podcast.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:06):
Where we have honest conversations about things that make us different.
Beth Demme (00:08):
Our mission is to talk about things you might relate to, but that you don't hear being discussed in other places.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:14):
Our hope is that you are encouraged to have honest conversations with people in your own life. I'm Steph.
Beth Demme (00:18):
And I'm Beth. On today's show, we're going to have an honest conversation titled, "Do Good People Have Prejudice?"
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:25):
Then we'll share a slice of life, and the show will close with questions for reflection, where we will invite you to reflect on the conversation in your own life.
Beth Demme (00:33):
So, good, do good people ... I feel like air quotes, right? Do "good" people have prejudice? Because, I feel like the default position is: I'm not prejudiced, I'm a good person.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:44):
I know. First of all, I want to roll my eyes at good and bad people.
Beth Demme (00:49):
Right, fair enough.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:49):
Who defines what's a good person? After we came up with this title, I was like, "Oh my gosh, good. What is good?"
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:58):
That's a whole other thing.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:00):
I decided though, in my head that, you'll know you are a good person by someone else telling you. I think someone else, if they define you as a good person, if enough people define you as a good person, then you can say you're a good person, but I don't know that we can define ourselves as good people, which is not what this episode's about, but I really had to define it in my head.
Beth Demme (01:17):
But I think most people think of themselves as good people.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:19):
Yeah, I think that's the baseline. I think we all think we are good people, or strive to be good people.
Beth Demme (01:26):
Right, but maybe it is like being humble. If you say you're ... "Oh, I'm so humble", then you're not humble.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:33):
Beth Demme (01:33):
Maybe it's the same thing with good. I don't know.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:35):
I don't know. Yeah, let's baseline everyone's a good person.
Beth Demme (01:39):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:39):
So, it everybody not prejudice?
Beth Demme (01:42):
Oh, so no. I don't think that, that's true. I don't think we can say-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:46):
Well, no. Well, then that leads to the question of the day. Are good people prejudiced?
Beth Demme (01:52):
I don't know, do you have any prejudices?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:55):
Well, first of all Beth, you have to tell me if I'm a good person because I can't say if I am, or not.
Beth Demme (01:59):
I definitely think that you're a good person. I think that you're a good person because I think that you care about other people, and you care about what happens in general, in the world. You're not self-centered, or you're not only focused on yourself, or what's good for you. I think that you are concerned about the broader good, and I think that makes you a good person.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:19):
Okay, so then the question is, am I prejudiced, Beth?
Beth Demme (02:23):
I don't know. You once told me that there was a prejudice that you were embarrassed to admit to me, but that you had to admit it to me.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:29):
Am I going to have to do it?
Beth Demme (02:30):
So, now I think you should share it on the podcast.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:31):
Oh my gosh! Should I tell that story? Oh, I still feel like ugh about it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:35):
Okay, so this was-
Beth Demme (02:37):
Now, listen. If you weren't a good person, I don't think you would ever have that ugh feeling. You would just-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:42):
I would just have it, and not even-
Beth Demme (02:43):
You would be like, "I don't care."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:44):
Well, we'll see. Yeah.
Beth Demme (02:45):
Okay, we'll see.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:46):
Okay, so I still feel a little weird about this, so now I'm going to admit it. I've already admitted it to you, but I realized this as we were starting the podcast, or when we were pre-planning and stuff, I realized I had this deep secret that I felt, that I had.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:10):
As we started working together more, I kept realizing this is so bad. I can't believe that I am thinking this way, and that I feel this way. Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. I feel like I am living a lie, not telling Beth this. I can't tell Beth this. This is horrible. This makes me a bad person, that I think this way. But, this is just how I think.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:30):
I finally decided that I had to admit it to you. I thought, she might not want to do the podcast with me anymore, if I admit it to her because this is horrible, and I'm a bad person because I'm thinking this.
Beth Demme (03:41):
But, it wasn't that horrible.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:44):
I sat you down and I said, "I have a prejudice against Russian people."
Beth Demme (03:52):
Which was a big deal because both of my kids are Russian.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:55):
Yes! So, I felt really bad, and I like Beth's kids. I think they're awesome.
Beth Demme (04:01):
Me too. I like them, too.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:03):
But, I also felt like I was lying, or just like I felt like I was hiding this part of me that had this prejudice.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:12):
In college, I had a Russian roommate, and it was not a great situation. If you want more details, read my book, "Discovering My Scars." We'll put a link in the podcast show notes.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:23):
That was the first truly Russian, Russian person from Russia that I knew.
Beth Demme (04:28):
She was not a good roommate.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:29):
She was not a good roommate, not a great person, but because she was the first person of that culture that I knew, that set my whole understanding of that culture, which was completely not fair to all Russians, to lump them in with one person that I met, that just wasn't a good person.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:48):
There are a lot of not good Americans. What if someone from Russia meets a not good American for the first time? What is their opinion ...? So, when you think about it that way, I had-
Beth Demme (04:58):
Yeah, that's a fair point, but also, I do want to say, not that you need to be defended, but I do want to say that you had that experience at a formative time in your life, and the ways that she was not a good roommate actually impacted your mental health in such a way that you ended up in a mental hospital.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:13):
Beth Demme (05:14):
So, it wasn't just nothing. It wasn't like she talked too loudly on the phone, or she played her music too loud. There were substantive issues there.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:22):
Yeah, and it was ... There were cultural differences, but ultimately, she just ... there's not-good people.
Beth Demme (05:29):
She was a selfish person.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:30):
In a lot of ways, yeah.
Beth Demme (05:31):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:33):
That was something that I really felt bad about, and I really just felt like I had to admit it. I finally told you, and you were like, "Okay, okay."
Beth Demme (05:42):
I get where you're coming from, and I also know that you don't hold that against my kids.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:46):
Beth Demme (05:47):
So, I think it's good to admit it, so that you can be aware of it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:50):
But, I will tell you, it was really wearing on me for a long time. I felt like I was harboring this lie, or this ... not lie, but I was keeping it from you. Once I told you, I don't really think about it, ever again.
Beth Demme (06:04):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:04):
It's not a thing. I like your kids just as much as I did before. I don't feel like there's this thing that I'm hiding from you. It was truth that I needed to say, to get it out there, and then I was done with it. I don't harbor any kind of weirdness, or feel like I'm not being truthful, so I do feel like that was so good for me to admit.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:28):
You were so generous, and not being like, well, peace out. How could you say that about my children?
Beth Demme (06:36):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:36):
Because also, they're American.
Beth Demme (06:38):
They are. They are American, it's true.
Beth Demme (06:41):
I think it is hard to admit our prejudices because there is this part of me that says that, or I say it to myself that, if I have a prejudice, that is bad, and therefore, I am a bad person.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:54):
Beth Demme (06:55):
I am coming up against this in ways that really surprise me in the work that I'm doing right now because I'm working at a hospital, doing some training with the spiritual care department, which is like, to be a hospital chaplain. I shocked myself.
Beth Demme (07:10):
I had to do my first 24 hour shift, so I was on duty for 24 hours. That means that I was on duty in the wee morning hours. A little bit after midnight, I got a page because beepers are still a thing, by the way y'all. They still use them in hospitals. I've never had a beeper before, and-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:28):
Can we put a link in the show notes, to what that looks like?
Beth Demme (07:30):
We'll put it on a BMAC page. We'll put it on a BMAC page. Yeah, it's 2021, and I've been given a beeper.
Beth Demme (07:36):
Anyway, I got a page that I needed to come to the emergency room for a gunshot wound. When I got there ... This is really embarrassing, but when I got there, I was surprised that it was a white man.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:49):
Beth Demme (07:50):
That's really terrible. That's really not okay.
Beth Demme (07:54):
I was able to ... I immediately recognized what I had done in my own mind. I immediately recognized that it was not okay. I am committed to continuing to work through that.
Beth Demme (08:07):
Interestingly, as I have shared this with some colleagues, part of what was hard for me in that experience was that, I didn't feel like the medical staff were as compassionate as I really wanted them to be.
Beth Demme (08:20):
As I have shared with colleagues, I was like, "Oh, yeah. There was a gunshot wound that came in around 1:00 in the morning, and it was my first exposure to this in the hospital. The medical staff was very good, in terms of attending to the medicine of the situation, but the bedside manner left something to be desired."
Beth Demme (08:39):
Colleagues have said, "Was it an African-American patient?" Because there is sometimes bias in how healthcare is delivered.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:48):
Beth Demme (08:50):
I was like, "No, but actually, it has raised some of my own awareness of my own prejudice because-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:57):
So, you were surprised didn't have good bedside manner to the man that was shot, and when you shared with your colleagues, they assumed that it was an African-American man, and that's why they didn't have good bedside manner?
Beth Demme (09:10):
Yes. I was assuming when I saw that it was a gunshot wound, just from what I have read in the news in our community, and knowing where most of that kind of violence happens, I thought that when I went to see the patient, that he would be African-American.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:25):
Beth Demme (09:25):
I knew it was a man because it said that in the page.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:28):
And because of your-
Beth Demme (09:29):
And because of my just-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:30):
The racism that we have been raised to believe.
Beth Demme (09:33):
Exactly. It's just like this unidentified, inherent belief in me that is NOT okay.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:38):
Yeah, yeah. That's what our TV shows have shown us. That's what our history has shown us. That's what the news shows us, so that would be our assumption, which is something that we have to change.
Beth Demme (09:49):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:49):
Yeah, so it's good to be aware of that.
Beth Demme (09:51):
Yeah, awareness I think is the first step in changing it. But also, as embarrassing as it is to admit it, I want to admit it, and I want to admit it on the podcast because I want all of us to know that it's okay to admit our prejudice, so that we can then work on it, instead of being like, oh no, I'm going to pretend like I don't have any.
Beth Demme (10:11):
You're never going to work on it, if you ... It's just like you were saying, about once you admitted that you had this prejudice against Russians because of this one experience, it was like, oh, now I don't feel the weight of that. Also, it's not getting in my way anymore.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:25):
Exactly. Yeah, it's a non-issue now.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:27):
Well, as you were talking about that, that made me realize, when I was actually back in college, and I was in the mental hospital, I was really treated poorly by the medical professionals because I presented with cuts on my arm. Back in the day ... now, I think it's more understood what non-suicidal self-injury is, although I still don't know if I would be treated differently.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:54):
But anyways, everyone that I interacted with really treated me poorly because they thought I was trying to kill myself was their assumption, I assume. No one said that specifically, but that was my assumption, and I was really, really treated poorly. They had this prejudice of, oh, she's trying to end her life, so why are we going to take care? Why should we treat her like a human being?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:16):
Yeah, so I definitely know how that feels, and don't think that's fair for anyone to have to experience.
Beth Demme (11:23):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:24):
Something that I think is interesting about prejudice is, I think a lot of it comes from one interaction with a group, or one interaction with something that's different than we've experienced before.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:39):
When I went to college, I grew up in Tallahassee, Florida, and there's a lot of people that look like me and you here, and there's some that don't, but I do wish we had a little bit more diversity here.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:52):
When I went to college, I had actually, in my ... I had three roommates. I had a Jewish roommate, I had a Egyptian roommate, and I had a Russian roommate. Three completely different cultures, which actually, I thought was very cool to be able to experience things that I had never experienced before.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:10):
Then, I also started dating a guy that was Cuban when I was in college. I just had all these different cultures, very interesting.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:19):
But, a similar experience, the person I was dating, when it ended ... Again, all of this, back to the mental hospital. That was all around the same time. Great timing, I'm realizing. When that-
Beth Demme (12:32):
The college years were just the best for you, weren't they Steph?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:34):
I know. It was, it was great.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:35):
Well, I wouldn't change it, though. As much as it's like, wow, it's all coming back to this. In that regard, having had a bad interaction with somebody of Cuban descent, I again had a similar prejudice towards people from Cuban descent, oh my goodness.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:54):
It's like because that was the first person that I met, and it didn't end well, it tainted my meeting of other people. Now, I've met many other people. I have people in my neighborhood that are of Cuban descent and they're great people. Even the guy I dated was a good person, it just was circumstances.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:18):
But, that's something that I try to be very aware of, of my prejudices because I feel like we all have prejudice based on our life experiences.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:28):
I try to identify if I meet somebody from a certain demographic that I've had a bad experience with in the past, and I have a odd feeling when I meet them like, huh, why am I a little bit taken aback by this? Then, I try to examine it like okay, well, this is someone Russian, oh, this is someone like my roommate. Oh, I didn't have a good interaction with her.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:50):
Wait a minute. This is a brand new person. This person doesn't deserve to be treated poorly, just based on my one experience with somebody.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:00):
I think the more I'm conscious of those things, the more I can give each person I meet, a fair chance. That's something that I try to do, so I think that's why it's so important to recognize prejudice, and identify where it comes from, where in our past it comes from, and how we can do better in the future, to not place those unfounded experiences on other people that have no context to that. Just because they're from the same cultural background, does not mean in any way that, they are like that person that we had a bad experience with.
Beth Demme (14:35):
One way that I've seen this come up in the church for example is, sometimes, churches will have a woman pastor, and it doesn't go well. Then they'll say to the powers that be because in the United Methodist System pastors are sent. Churches don't hire pastors. They're sent to them.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:54):
Beth Demme (14:56):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:56):
Beth Demme (14:57):
From the appointive cabinet of their conference.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:59):
Oh, it would be easier if it was from God.
Beth Demme (15:01):
Beth Demme (15:02):
They'll say, "Well, obviously having a woman pastor didn't work for us, so you're going to have to just send us a man."
Beth Demme (15:10):
I will say that, the two bishops who I have been able to have a conversation with about this in the United Methodist system, they recognize that that's prejudice based on one experience.
Beth Demme (15:22):
They'll say, "Well, have you never had a bad experience with a male pastor?"
Beth Demme (15:26):
That makes people go, "Oh yeah, we have."
Beth Demme (15:28):
"Well, you would never tell me not to send you a man, just because you had one bad experience. This is not a gendered issue, this is a personality issue, or some other problem at the root of it."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:38):
Which, goes to show that, we have to have more integration of all types of people, in all roles, in all places because I think the norm for too long has been, a white guy is in this role, and that's what we have seen.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:53):
When we have one woman that breaks through, if they don't align with that woman, then that sets the precedent that women shouldn't be in that role. Or, if a black man is in that role, that sets the precedent.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:08):
That's not okay. We need to be ... even if it's not the best person for a role, we have to be encouraging people to do the things that they love to do and feel led to do. I think that's a big part of it is, for so long, it's like oh, you can't do that. You're a X, Y and Z. You can't do that, you're an X, Y and Z.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:27):
Something that happened this week ... we're recording this on the 22nd of January. Something that happened this week is, we got the first vice president female in the White House.
Beth Demme (16:40):
Yes! I was just thinking about her.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:41):
Yes, and then-
Beth Demme (16:42):
I was like, imagine the pressure!
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:43):
Yes! I know, right?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:45):
There's going to be people that, if she doesn't do a good job, that are going to be like, "See? This is why a woman shouldn't be in the White House."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:51):
Has there been any other, any male vice presidents, that didn't do a good job?
Beth Demme (16:56):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:57):
Was it because they were a male? Was it because maybe they just weren't good?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:02):
That is a lot of pressure to put on her and I'm not going to put that pressure on her.
Beth Demme (17:05):
I think she's going to do a great job.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:06):
Whether she was republican, democrat, whatever, it's a moment to cherish. This is a huge step for women, to have this important of a role. Next will be president, don't worry about it. But this is such a huge move for women.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:23):
In my mind, it doesn't matter the politics. This is a huge move for women. Women need to be in all roles. They need to be encouraged to do the things that they're excited about. I am very excited about it.
Beth Demme (17:38):
Let's not kid ourselves. There are some men who are very unhappy to have a woman as the vice president.
Beth Demme (17:46):
There is a part of me that wants to say because of that prejudice, they're not good people. But, the more we talk about this, the more I'm thinking, okay, that's maybe not a fair statement.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:54):
You know, that brings me to another thing that I'm super uncomfortable to admit, but I'm pretty sure I might have admitted it before on the podcast, I might have. I have a prejudice against white men.
Beth Demme (18:08):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:08):
That's a tough one.
Beth Demme (18:09):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:10):
But I do, which is big because there's a lot of white men in a lot of roles. That doesn't mean that I despise all white men. I more than likely will marry a white man one day. I don't know. I might marry a black man, I might marry someone of a different culture. I don't know, but odds are-
Beth Demme (18:27):
She's open to options, folks, by the way.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:28):
I'm open to all men, yes, in a not weird way. In meeting, and saying, "Hello" to all these men. That's a keeper for the podcast, for sure.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:46):
Anyways, but I do have a prejudice and a lot of that comes from many interactions with white men, which I think if anything we've experienced in this world, most of us, it's probably white men. I think that's probably been most of our experiences.
Beth Demme (19:02):
It has been the majority of my experiences.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:04):
I would think so. It just is, so of course, I've had a lot of experiences to base that prejudice on.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:10):
But for me, a lot of it comes from I have been abused by—sexually abused by—white men in my life and that's something that runs very deep, and something that I deal with, and live with. There is a part of me that, if I see a white man walking and I'm alone, there's a part of me, there is a part of my brain that instantly thinks, what if he tries to take advantage, and overpower me?
Beth Demme (19:37):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:37):
That is something that is just innate in me, and I am aware of. I don't let it not let me go places alone. I don't think it's fair to say, "Well, I can't go places alone because I might be overpowered." I always have my phone, and things like that. I don't walk in the dark and stuff like that, but I also don't let it control me to the point where, I can't do normal human things.
Beth Demme (20:04):
Right, you don't take unnecessary risks, but you also don't let that, those past experiences stop you from living a full life.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:10):
Beth Demme (20:10):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:11):
Beth Demme (20:11):
But also it's understandable, given your experiences that, you would be wary. I think that, that's wise.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:20):
Yeah. Yeah, and also, that doesn't mean when I meet a white man that I'm like, oh my gosh, this is a horrible person.
Beth Demme (20:27):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:27):
I'm aware that I have this prejudice, but I also try to give everyone a fair chance. I'm on my guard in the sense that I'm very present when I meet a new white man. I'm very present, and try to read the signals, and find out what kind of person this is, but I don't just disregard.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:53):
You literally can't. Our world is full of white men. You could not just do that, but I know a lot of good, white men.
Beth Demme (21:01):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:01):
I know a lot of bad, white men.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:03):
Your husband's a good, white man. Yes.
Beth Demme (21:05):
Oh, I was scared for a second. You know, I know a lot of bad white men too, and then you said my husband. I was like, wait a second, he's a good one!
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:10):
Could you imagine that? He's a great one.
Beth Demme (21:11):
He's a good one.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:12):
He's a great one.
Beth Demme (21:13):
We've had three guests on the podcast who have been white men.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:17):
Yes! Actually, was our last episode we had a white ... No, two episodes ago-
Beth Demme (21:21):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:21):
... we had a white man.
Beth Demme (21:22):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:23):
Beth Demme (21:24):
Yeah, we had David, and before him, we had Samuel.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:26):
Yes, he was great.
Beth Demme (21:27):
And before him, we had Daniel.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:29):
He's okay. He's a good old white man. He's my bro, guys. I can give him a hard time.
Beth Demme (21:36):
What's the difference between having a stereotype of someone, and having a prejudice? They're different, right? They're related, but they're different?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:46):
Is a stereotype a prejudice that is widely accepted? Is that what it is? A stereotype is something that is culturally accepted as something, but a prejudice is something that's more personal to you specifically, based on your history.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:02):
Because I think a stereotype is not necessarily based on my history. It's based on a cultural history of a culture, or something.
Beth Demme (22:12):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:14):
I would think stereotyping is less personal to you and a prejudice is personal to your experiences.
Beth Demme (22:22):
I wonder if prejudice involves in some way, more thought, or more action? If a stereotype is maybe more superficial?
Beth Demme (22:30):
I have blonde hair, and so, there's a stereotype about people with blonde hair that gets reflected in blonde jokes. This is a very meaningless example. I'm just picking it out of nothing.
Beth Demme (22:40):
There are stereotypes about that, but I don't feel like I've ever experienced prejudice because of my hair color. Does that make sense? It's more superficial, but maybe that example is more superficial.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:52):
You know, I think you could experience prejudice for having blonde hair, as much as it seems like a superficial example, I think one of the stereotypes is, blondes are not as intelligent as brunettes, or something like that.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:04):
You could experience a prejudice. Somebody could be prejudiced against blondes, and start talking to you and realize oh, she's smart. That's weird because she has blonde hair.
Beth Demme (23:17):
Beth Demme (23:20):
I do remember many, many years ago. I think I was even ... I was in law school, and I had to go to a new dentist. He said, "Well, I only know two kinds of jokes. I got blonde jokes, which I can't tell, so you'll have to sit and listen to my lawyer jokes."
Beth Demme (23:34):
I was like, "Well, actually, I'm in law school."
Beth Demme (23:36):
He was like, "I've got nothing, then. I got blonde jokes, and lawyer jokes. That's all I got."
Beth Demme (23:39):
I was like-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:40):
I'm envisioning him as a white man. Am I accurate?
Beth Demme (23:42):
Shockingly true, yes.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:43):
Wow, wow. Oh my gosh. Please don't recommend him. I already don't like him.
Beth Demme (23:48):
Yeah, he's retired now.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:50):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:52):
Well, and on the same side of that, I have experienced a lot of prejudice just being a female in non-traditional female roles.
Beth Demme (23:58):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:58):
We've talked about this before, on our YouTube channel, I get a lot of-
Beth Demme (24:03):
"Get back in the kitchen!"
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:04):
Yes, I get a lot of ... by the way, we created a playlist on our Mother Daughter Projects YouTube channel called, "Back in the Kitchen." It's projects that we've done in the kitchen, not food-related, but-
Beth Demme (24:18):
We'll have to put a link to that, that'll be good.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:20):
Yes, we've done a back splash in the kitchen, we've installed a new light in the kitchen, we've replaced the filter in the fridge in the kitchen, so for those that want us to get back in the kitchen, we'll link to that playlist when people say that now.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:32):
But, I've experienced prejudice just as a female. It's interesting because I shared ... something literally happened on inauguration day, on the greatest day.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:42):
By the way, my mom and I were watching the inauguration all day. It was so exciting. I don't think I've ever watched an inauguration, presidential inauguration that I can remember. We were watching all day, and we wore pearls and chucks-
Beth Demme (24:54):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:56):
... in honor of Kamala.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:57):
But, later in that day, I have a list of the best times to go to certain places, stores-
Beth Demme (25:02):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:03):
... during COVID. Yeah, during COVID, where it's not busy. Anyways, FYI, Home Depot, 4:00 PM on Wednesday, best time to go.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:12):
I am working a project, but I needed to see what wood they had available because they've been out of stock of a lot of different varieties. Due to COVID, there's just been a lot of stuff missing.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:22):
When I got there, I found the thing I wanted as not there so I had to re-figure out what I was going to get. Anyways, I was looking at sanded plywood, random just looking at it, taking a picture because I was doing my figuring out what they had.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:37):
This guy stops, literally stops dead in his tracks and he says, "What could you possibly be doing with sanded plywood? I'm just curious."
Beth Demme (25:44):
How rude. How rude. Was it a white man? Do we have a theme here?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:50):
Well, I was at Home Depot, in the wood section.
Beth Demme (25:53):
At 4:00 on a Wednesday.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:54):
He was wearing a mask, so I very much approved of that.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:00):
My first reaction was, what the F? What would YOU do with sanded plywood? Sanded plywood, first of all, it's so versatile, you could make a million different things. It's not like it was this weird oddity that's like, what could you possibly do? It was sanded plywood. You could do anything with it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:20):
So, I just turned around, and I just had all these things run through my head in a split second, and I just say, "I'm making a TV stand," very nicely, instead of all the things I wanted to yell.
Beth Demme (26:30):
That was polite of you.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:31):
So then, he proceeds to tell me about something that he made and some wood he used. I was like, "Okay, great. Thank you," and we proceeded.
Beth Demme (26:42):
You know that he left that conversation feeling like he was an expert.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:46):
Beth Demme (26:46):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:47):
I'm pretty sure.
Beth Demme (26:49):
Pretty sure you probably have more knowledge than-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:51):
I told that story to a friend of mine, and he was like ... Because, my assumption of the story is, this guy was shocked to see a woman in the wood section, looking at sanded plywood, by the way. But, I told this story to a friend of mine, and I said, "This is why we need women in all types of roles because this guy thought it was such an odd thing to see a woman looking at plywood."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:16):
He was like, "Well, how do you know it was because you were a woman?"
Beth Demme (27:19):
What else would it have been, that you're young?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:22):
I'm sorry, but I have experienced enough of this to know--
Beth Demme (27:26):
Right, you know what it is.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:27):
Me and my mom were literally ... Okay, you know what metric is.
Beth Demme (27:31):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:32):
Other countries use metric. Home Depot sells-
Beth Demme (27:34):
Metric is a 10-based math system.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:36):
Exactly, way better than ours, but whatever.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:39):
We were in the metric section of screws one day in Home Depot, and because we needed a metric screw. A screw on a foreign table saw we had from Japan had fallen off. We needed a new screw, and they use metric.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:56):
Anyways, we were in the metric section, literally a Home Depot worker at the end of the aisle, walking past, yells at us says, "That's the metric section!"
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:08):
We just turned like-
Beth Demme (28:09):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:10):
Yeah, and he's like, "Oh." But, the intention was, "don't look at the metric section. There's no way you could need a metric screw."
Beth Demme (28:19):
Right, "you're in the wrong part of the store!"
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:21):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:22):
I'm sorry, but I can't imagine some worker that has no context of what a man is doing in the metric section would yell at a man, and say, "You're in the metric section!"
Beth Demme (28:32):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:32):
First of all, I know I'm in the metric section.
Beth Demme (28:35):
I came here on purpose.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:35):
It has drawers. It's completely different than all the other screws you have here. We know. This is what we were looking for.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:42):
Anyways, I've had enough experiences, no shame to Home Depot.
Beth Demme (28:46):
Yes, yes, yes.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:46):
You know I love Home Depot.
Beth Demme (28:47):
And they love you.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:48):
One of the things that I love about Home Depot is, I love that we get to just walk around, and no one ... We usually don't get asked if we need help. If we do, that's great. We usually don't, but I like that we can just walk around, and do our thing.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:03):
But then we sometimes have these interactions that are just ... It's fine, it's whatever, but it's like I've had enough interactions to know that when a man stops me in a shocked tone, that it's based on my gender.
Beth Demme (29:14):
It's based on gender.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:15):
It's based on my gender.
Beth Demme (29:16):
Beth Demme (29:16):
And, it's such a weird defense mechanism?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:19):
Because, they have-
Beth Demme (29:20):
Like a weird flex for the man who you told about this experience to be like, well, how do you know this because you're a woman? It's like, that's like telling me I'm in the metric section.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:29):
Beth Demme (29:31):
I know that it's because I'm a woman.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:32):
Yeah because I'm in-
Beth Demme (29:33):
Don't doubt my experience.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:36):
Yeah, yeah. Because I'm in woman's skin, and this is what I experience on a daily basis when I go to these places.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:43):
Anyways, I assume these guys have prejudice against women in these places, that they cannot even fathom that women would be doing these things and what they would be doing.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:54):
That is part of why my mom and I put our videos online because we want women and men to see us doing these things. We want to see that we can do these, we enjoy doing them, we know how to do these things, and make it not a shocking thing to see, but just make it a regular thing to see.
Beth Demme (30:12):
You're combating the stereotype that is, that only men do DIY-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:17):
Beth Demme (30:17):
... or, only men do home improvement.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:18):
Beth Demme (30:19):
After the insurrection at the Capitol on January 6th, the Florida United Methodist Conference put out a statement. I may have referenced this in the last episode, but they put out a statement basically saying, we have to admit that white privilege is real, and whiteness is a cultural reality. It was a true statement, but I was not surprised that there was a lot of backlash to it.
Beth Demme (30:45):
But, one of the things that was said in response to this was ... and more than one person seemed to have this attitude, but one person specifically phrased it this way, that she was tired of the racism "being spewed against white people.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:02):
Racism towards white people?
Beth Demme (31:04):
Right, which I don't actually think that by the definition of what racism is, and how it involves a power dynamic, I don't think that, that could even be true, but it raises a question for me about how do I interact with people who are unaware, or unwilling to admit, or unable to admit their own prejudices?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:22):
Beth Demme (31:23):
The people who want to say, "No, I'm not prejudiced. I'm a good person. And oh, by the way, don't tell me that white privilege is real because that's you being a racist towards me." Something is breaking down there for me, that I feel like I don't know how to engage in a conversation.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:37):
I don't know. I think that all we can do is us. All we can do is, control what we do, and how we share.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:49):
I believe everybody has prejudice. Everybody has life experiences that has led them in certain ways. I think we all have some type of prejudice.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:58):
I think it is so important for us to recognize it, and to admit, and to admit it to another person, someone that we trust. Let them know because once it's out there, and once we say it, we can actually start working on it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:12):
It goes along with our mental health, and our past traumas and things like that. If we don't admit them, they're just going to keep eating away at us.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:23):
That's something that I've talked about having post-traumatic stress disorder before, from being in the mental hospital. The literal cure for it is, talking about the trauma that happened, which is so ridiculous that all I have to do is talk about it and it makes it better.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:39):
I hate that, that's the answer because I'm like, I want some crazy whole thing.
Beth Demme (32:44):
Yeah, I want it to be harder.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:45):
But, it really did ... It really did help, and it doesn't control me anymore because of talking about it. There is so much cleansing that happens by talking and literally getting it out. The words getting out is so cleansing.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:59):
I think that's the first step in addressing our prejudice is saying, "Yeah, I'm prejudiced-
Beth Demme (33:06):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:07):
... towards X, Y and Z."
Beth Demme (33:09):
Is that a way that I can start a conversation with someone who's reacting in that way to be like, "I hear where you're coming from, but I have realized in the last whatever time period, a lot of my own prejudices. It's been hard to admit."? I don't know. I just feel--
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:26):
Well, I think the--
Beth Demme (33:27):
... I feel like they don't hear me.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:29):
Well, you can't dictate who hears you, who doesn't. If you are truly connected with somebody, you have to hope that they would actually give you the time to hear your words. Whether it makes a change in their life, we have no control over that.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:46):
But, I know from Celebrate Recovery that, "I" statements are very important. This is how I feel. This is me, and not using broad we, or you statements.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:57):
I don't know anyone that really responds well to, "You need to do this, and you need to do that." No one responds well to that. No one wants to be told what to do, but all I can do is focus on me.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:08):
If you were talking to somebody about prejudice, open up. Tell them about the prejudice that you have. It's embarrassing, and it's scary, and it's hard to say, but I think that's how a conversation could get started.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:21):
Whether it will change anything, or not? I don't know. I don't know the person in your life. You won't know for sure if it's made a difference, but I think it's important to try.
Beth Demme (34:34):
I think it's important to try, and I think it depends on relationship.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:36):
Beth Demme (34:37):
Like so many other things that, you have to go into the conversation with some credibility and a willingness to be vulnerable.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:47):
So Beth, I've admitted some of my prejudice that I have. I'm curious, are you prejudiced towards any large group that you are-
Beth Demme (34:55):
There was a-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:55):
Or, are you a good person, so you are not?
Beth Demme (34:58):
Yeah, I'm a pretty good person, if I do say so myself. No, I think that what I'm learning—I have a prejudiced view of violence, and who it affects, that's not okay. I'm thinking more broadly too. I'm thinking after 9/11, was there a part of me that was like, oh my gosh, Muslim people hate America, so do I have issues? You know?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:21):
Beth Demme (35:22):
I do think that I had to work through some of that because I remember reading Malala's book, and having to tell myself ... No, I remember being surprised. I remember being surprised reading Malala's book, and understanding what a good person she was, and how her faith contributed in such a significant way to her being a good person, and how that re-wired some things for me.
Beth Demme (35:47):
I definitely have prejudices, and for some reason, it's easier to identify the ones that I have worked through, than the ones that I'm still needing to address.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:57):
Do you have a prejudice against white men?
Beth Demme (35:59):
Well, on a ... if all things being relative, it's not as bad at yours. Your prejudice is way worse.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:05):
Because you're a good person, and I'm not?
Beth Demme (36:08):
That's right because I am a good person. No, I-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:12):
I love that. Point a finger at me. None are pointing back at you, huh?
Beth Demme (36:16):
Oh. Yeah, yeah. Three are pointing back at me. Yeah, I know there are some people who my gut tells me, maybe I wouldn't trust them off the bat. That's got to be a prejudice, but--
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:32):
Is it everybody, or is it like, do you trust most people off the bat? Because I don't trust anybody 100%. I think we've mentioned that.
Beth Demme (36:40):
I trust most people off the bat, but there are some people for whom it would be harder for me to trust them.
Beth Demme (36:48):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:48):
Like you meet someone new, and you trust them?
Beth Demme (36:50):
Yeah, for the most part.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:51):
Beth Demme (36:51):
I will say this. I tend to trust white women.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:55):
I don't trust anyone right away, so I don't know.
Beth Demme (36:57):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:58):
That's hard for me to say. I would feel ... That's hard to quantify how quickly I trust somebody. It's definitely not right away. Probably yeah, I would probably trust women quicker than I do men. For me, I don't think it's white versus black women necessarily.
Beth Demme (37:16):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:17):
I think it's just women.
Beth Demme (37:17):
Right. I think of black women as especially powerful, so sometimes that's intimidating to me.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:28):
I think black women are very intimidating.
Beth Demme (37:31):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:32):
I just want to be like ... I want, "Hi, you're the best." Because, I actually had a third grade ... my third grade teacher was a black woman, and she was one of the first black women that I interacted with a lot. She was the very best teacher.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:50):
I think she actually won teacher of the year that year because she's awesome, but she's very no nonsense. So that was my very first interaction with a black woman. So, that was just my whoa, she's really good. You listen to her, you don't ... she wasn't mean. She was just no nonsense.
Beth Demme (38:07):
Right, she was in charge.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:09):
Beth Demme (38:09):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:09):
So, based on that, that's been my view of black women.
Beth Demme (38:15):
Yeah. Well, it's interesting because it's like you had an experience that created what I would say is a more positive-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:22):
Yeah, I don't think that's a prejudice. I think that's a ... Yeah, that's like a positive view.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:28):
Kamala, awesome, I super support her. Two things, excited for a female in the VP, and excited about Kamala, who I have actually been following for years, even before this. I had been following her, and had always had a good feeling about her in interviews, and seeing her policies, and just her beliefs. I had always got a good feeling about her. Yeah, so there was no question in my mind that, she was the right choice.
Beth Demme (38:55):
Yeah, in hindsight, Sarah Palin would not have been a good first woman in the executive branch.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:01):
But, I don't think ...
Beth Demme (39:02):
That's my personal view on it, and I voted for her.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:06):
I don't think it would have been detrimental. I still think it would have been a step for women.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:11):
I see what you're saying because when a woman ... like you said, when a female pastor is put into a role, and they don't do a good job, then it's seen as all women won't be good in that role.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:22):
But I don't know, and even if she had been the first VP female, and she didn't do too good a job in the role, I still think it would have been a step for women. I still think it would have made it easier for women to be in that-
Beth Demme (39:34):
For the next woman, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:34):
... in that role. I don't know that one woman would have come right next, after that, but I don't know.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:42):
To me, I don't think a bad woman in the role sets you completely back.
Beth Demme (39:49):
I think you're probably right because to be set completely back ... I don't know. Gosh, I don't know.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:56):
I think any step forward is a good thing. That's my opinion.
Beth Demme (40:01):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:01):
I can't think of situations where it's been so detrimental.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:05):
I think having Barack Obama, the first black male president was a great step, and I don't see harm, I see good from that. I'm excited to see another black male president, another female president, and another female black president, all the things. I am ready to see all the things coming up.
Beth Demme (40:26):
Yes because none of that dictates whether or not you're capable.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:31):
I do agree with making sure we're hiring the right people in the right roles.
Beth Demme (40:35):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:35):
I do not believe that Biden picked Kamala because she's a female, and that was it, done deal, she's female. She was the right person for the role.
Beth Demme (40:42):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:42):
I believe that.
Beth Demme (40:43):
Right, but everything about the inauguration I think showed his genuine commitment to being more inclusive in who has a voice in government and who is given a platform.
Beth Demme (40:59):
Our poet laureate-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:00):
Beth Demme (41:00):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:01):
Beth Demme (41:02):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:03):
22 years old.
Beth Demme (41:03):
Yeah, amazing with language, amazing presentation. She has a speech impediment. She had to work really hard to be able to present the poem the way that she did, but I just ... wow.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:15):
I don't know about you, but there was a huge sense of relief, and ah, I could finally breathe after four years, when the inauguration happened.
Beth Demme (41:26):
Right. Well, and Dr. Fauci, we're steering off into current events, but you could sense that in him.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:33):
Beth Demme (41:33):
When he's at the podium, you could sense this like-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:35):
I can just focus on science!
Beth Demme (41:37):
Right, like this relief from him.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:40):
I don't know, you would probably know this best, Beth. Has there been any other president with a bigger Bible than Biden? Can you tell us that? Have you researched that? Because, that gosh darn-
Beth Demme (41:54):
It was quite-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:55):
That's a Bible.
Beth Demme (41:55):
... a Bible. It was quite a Bible, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:57):
I don't know how many books are in that Bible, but I feel like it's bigger than my Bible.
Beth Demme (42:01):
Well, he's Roman Catholic, so he would have more than the 66 books that are in your Bible.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (42:05):
Oh, yes it's true.
Beth Demme (42:06):
Yeah, he would have the whole apocrypha, and maybe more, I don't know.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (42:10):
They said it was from the 1800s. It's an old Bible.
Beth Demme (42:13):
Stephen Colbert said, "That Bible's the version that has the extra Jesus in it."
Stephanie Kostopoulos (42:19):
It's like every denomination just added something to this Bible. We got to put a picture of the Bible in the show notes-
Beth Demme (42:25):
We will, we'll do that.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (42:26):
... because that-
Beth Demme (42:26):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (42:26):
I hope it has its own Twitter handle now because that Bible ...
Beth Demme (42:30):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (42:31):
Beth Demme (42:32):
If it doesn't, we should start-
Stephanie Kostopoulos (42:32):
Beth Demme (42:33):
We should start that Twitter handle, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (42:36):
Bernie's gotten all the love with his meme-
Beth Demme (42:38):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (42:38):
... but that Bible, come on! That Bible-
Beth Demme (42:42):
Bernie's mittens ...
Stephanie Kostopoulos (42:42):
We should put Bernie in our podcast studio!
Beth Demme (42:45):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (42:46):
We should! We'll put it on our BMAC page.
Beth Demme (42:49):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (42:49):
We'll take a picture.
Beth Demme (42:49):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Beth Demme (42:54):
Well, speaking of our BMAC page, we have decided to expand the podcast experience using buymeacoffee.com. We've done that because we have so much fun making this podcast and we've heard from people wondering how they can support us, so we decided that we would start this buy me a coffee page. You can go there, and you can buy us a cup of coffee, or for Steph, a cup of tea, or you can even become a monthly supporter.
Beth Demme (43:16):
That gives you access to PDFs of the questions for reflection, and we put pictures, and outtakes and polls, and some of the things we've mentioned today that we're going to put on there, like our Senator Sanders meme, put him here in the podcast studio.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (43:31):
Check out the link in our description, and you'll see some fun stuff.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (43:41):
Well Beth, we talked a little bit in the episode more than I thought we would about the inauguration because I want to talk about it in Slice of Life, but I don't think I'm going to move it. I'll keep it where it was, in editing.
Beth Demme (43:54):
Okay, keep it there.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (43:55):
Yes, I'll keep it where it is, but just to reiterate, inauguration day was awesome.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (44:01):
I wanted to remind everybody that, if you are enjoying listening to this podcast, something that you can do to help other people find this podcast is, to give us a five star rating in your podcast app. You just scroll down to the bottom, and there will be stars there. Just hit the 5th star, and you've done your star service.
Beth Demme (44:20):
We appreciate it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (44:21):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (44:22):
Now Beth, I know you have weird news for me sometimes, and I don't know if you have something weird today.
Beth Demme (44:27):
I do have something weird today. We are Florida women, right?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (44:31):
Beth Demme (44:32):
We live in Florida, we're both born and raised in Florida.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (44:34):
Beth Demme (44:36):
I feel like Florida gets a bad rap. There is this idea of the Florida man, who is always doing something crazy, often with an alligator, right?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (44:45):
Beth Demme (44:47):
I was interested today, to read about a new law that's being proposed in the state of Oklahoma because there is a lawmaker in Oklahoma named, Justin Humphry. He's a Republican, and he is sponsoring a bill in the upcoming legislative session, to create a new hunting season in Oklahoma, that will be specifically for hunting Bigfoot.
Beth Demme (45:19):
He doesn't want anyone to kill Bigfoot. He wants them to trap a live Bigfoot. But actually, that's not what the bill says. This legislation would direct that Oklahoma Wildlife Conservation Commission to create rules, dates, licenses and fees for a Bigfoot hunting season.
Beth Demme (45:41):
It would award $25,000 to anyone who can trap a Bigfoot.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (45:47):
Oh my gosh.
Beth Demme (45:48):
Now, maybe you're a Bigfoot believer. Maybe you Steph, are secretly on the hunt for Sasquatch. I don't know, but I don't think that Bigfoot is real, so the idea that there is going to be a law in Oklahoma, about how to ... about when to hunt these, and to be licensed to hunt them, I think all due respect to those who complain about Florida man, let's talk about Oklahoma man.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:16):
Well, I like that yes, you have shifted it to Oklahoma. I do approve of that, but also, why would you need a hunting license to trap Bigfoot?
Beth Demme (46:26):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:26):
Hunting is shooting something.
Beth Demme (46:28):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:29):
Why, if you are wanting them to trap and get a reward, why would that not be any time?
Beth Demme (46:34):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:35):
Beth Demme (46:35):
Why do you need a license for that?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:36):
What? There's just all shades of crazy there. I don't even ... has it passed, or he's presenting it?
Beth Demme (46:42):
It's only a proposal right now, but it's Oklahoma.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:45):
But, you know, if it was Florida, someone would try to get that in as an amendment in our constitution. And you know what? If it was on the ballot, that sucker would pass, and that's why Florida is a hot mess.
Beth Demme (46:56):
No, I'm trying to deflect attention away from Florida.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:58):
But, you know if that was an amendment, you know it would pass because every single amendment always passes on our-
Beth Demme (47:05):
They usually do.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:06):
... on our ballots, and it's ridiculous. We have some ridiculous things in our constitution-
Beth Demme (47:11):
Like about pregnant pigs.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:11):
... that should not be touched.
Beth Demme (47:13):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:13):
It is crazy. Don't get me started.
Beth Demme (47:16):
I was not trying to get you started. I was trying to get you to think about Oklahoma.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:20):
I have no desire to think of Oklahoma, and no desire to think of crazy people, but now I have. Weird.
Beth Demme (47:27):
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:30):
At the end of each episode, we end with questions for reflection. These are questions based on today's show, that Beth will read, and leave a little pause between. Then, if you want to get a PDF, you can find it on our buy me a coffee page.
Beth Demme (47:43):
Number one, what are your prejudices? Are you willing to admit them to yourself, or others?
Beth Demme (47:49):
Number two, have you experienced prejudice towards yourself? Reflect on that experience.
Beth Demme (47:56):
Number three, what past experiences have created your prejudices?
Beth Demme (48:03):
Number four, do you think white privilege is real? How has it affected you?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (48:09):
This has been the Discovering Our Scars podcast. Thank you for joining us.