Show NotesQuestions for Reflection
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Beth Demme(00:04):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars Podcast. Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:06): We have honest conversations about things that make us different. I'm Steph. Beth Demme(00:10): And I'm Beth. Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:11): I've been in recovery for 14 years. And I'm the author of Discovering My Scars, my memoir about my mental health struggles, experiences, and faith. Beth Demme(00:18): I'm a lawyer turned pastor, who's all about self-awareness and emotional health, because I know what it's like to have neither of those things. Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:25): Beth and I have been friends for years, have gone through a recovery program together. And when I wanted to start a podcast, she was the only name that came to mind as co-host. Beth Demme(00:33): I didn't hesitate to say yes, because I've learned a lot from honest conversations with Steph, over the years. Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:38): We value honest conversations and we hope you do too. Beth Demme(00:41): That's why we do this, and why we want you to be part of what we're discussing today. On today's show, we're going to have an honest conversation titled: "Insurrection, Sedition, Coup..." Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:51): Then we'll share a slice of life. And the show will close with questions for reflection, where we invite you to reflect in the conversation in your own life. Beth Demme(00:59): So Steph, I was really excited for 2021 to start. I was really excited for 2020 to end, to wrap it up, to put a bow on it, to put it behind me. And now, 2021 has really not started on the right foot at all. Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:17): Well, it almost feels like we've gone back, maybe a hundred or so years when our country was first started. There are new words in 2021 that I have only read about in history books. I will say though, I am one person that was like 2021 is not going to be any different than 2020. I don't know what magical thing people are going to think is going to happen when they go to sleep and wake up in 2021. I did not think anything was going to change. So, my expectations have not been dropped at all. Beth Demme(01:49): It's like a new year, new beginning. We're supposed to have optimism and hope. And we're looking forward to the inauguration and it's going to be a new administration. And the Georgia election was happening. And the runoff went from my perspective as a person who is not currently supporting the Republican Party, the Georgia election went better than I could have expected. And so, all of that was on a positive note. And then, wow. It was like, no, 2021 is not going to be what I had hoped it would be. Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:22): Well, it's interesting because it's like there was so much baggage from 2020. And there's a lot of people that just thought, "I'm going to wake up and all that will be gone." But it's like I'm dealing with our mental health, is if we just hope that one day all the junk that we have in a big pile, when we go to bed and wake up, it'll just all be gone, it's not going to happen. You got to deal with all that junk. And I think that's what we're all learning now is that junk followed us from 2021, and we have to address it. And it's very loud and clear that it has to be addressed. Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:58): So, we obviously did not have this episode scheduled. We do schedule far in advance, but this one was not scheduled, shocking. And we wish we didn't have to talk about this. But as we were talking about today's episode, we realized we have to talk about current events because in my mind, this is a 9/11 moment. This is a, where were you when you heard that our democracy was under attack? And our Capitol was under attack, was taken over by Americans that obviously no longer believe in our country and what we stand for. So, I guess that's the first question. So, we're really today talking about what happened on... You tell the story, Beth. Beth Demme(03:43): Well, on January 6th, a group of Americans gathered in Washington DC for a normal rally. It was organized by an organization called Stop The Steal with the support of President Trump. And he tweeted about it quite a bit before the day of. And they chose that day, January 6th, because that was the day that Congress was going to certify the Electoral College results. And Congress's role in that is that they receive what the electoral college for each state has- Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:15): Already certified. Beth Demme(04:16): ... already certified. Yeah. And they report it, and then they accept it. And that's, it's really a rubber stamp. It's not meant to be an opportunity to disqualify the millions of people who voted to direct their Electoral College delegates. Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:37): Yeah. This is how democracy works. Beth Demme(04:41): This is how our representative democracy works. Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:43): Yes. Beth Demme(04:43): Not every democracy uses an electoral college, but we do. Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:46): Yeah. Beth Demme(04:46): And so, this is how it's done. And of course, from time to time, there have been ceremonial objections, but this year was different because we had a president who really beginning, even before the election in November, started talking about electoral fraud. And after it was obvious that he lost, exerted enormous pressure on state leaders, particularly in Georgia to try to get them to discount the votes that were against him or to manufacture votes, so that he would have more than what he had actually earned. And numerous lawsuits throughout the country that were dismissed. Beth Demme(05:27): And it all led to this Stop The Steal Movement, because he promoted the idea that the election was being stolen from him and from his supporters. The lie was that the election had not been valid. The lie was that there were people who were trying to make sure that Republicans weren't elected. And the problem for that is, you have folks like the representative from Arizona who actually objected to his own state's Electoral College certification, even though he was just reelected. So, he's saying, "Well, no, it was valid as far as my election is concerned. Right? But it was not valid when we think of the presidential election." And there just hasn't been any evidence of that, other than manufactured videos and affidavits that haven't been proven true. And all of that worked people up into this fever pitch attitude. Beth Demme(06:24): And then on January 6th, the president said, "Let's march to the Capitol. Let's march down Pennsylvania Avenue. I will march with you." And of course he didn't, but they did. And they broke through the minimal barricades that the Capitol police had been able to construct, and they broke into the US Capitol, and they disrupted our democracy. They disrupted the certification of the Electoral College. Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:53): They attempted to overthrow our democracy, overthrow our government. They attempted to assassinate our vice president. They attempted to take hostages and kill our elected officials. The more that's coming out about this, the worse it looks, the more it was premeditated. This had been planned. This had been organized. There were leaders. There was communication. I mean, there's new reporting that some of these people even got into the Capitol a day before with their representatives to case the place, to know where everything was. I mean, there's just the news. The facts that are coming out. Beth Demme(07:35): Big questions about whether or not those representatives were assisting them intentionally. Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:42): Yes. Yeah. Beth Demme(07:44): Yeah. That'll be interesting to see how the investigations on that come out. Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:47): That has not played out yet. Beth Demme(07:47): Yeah. Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:47): But before we dig even into this, I'm curious where were you when you first heard about this going on? Beth Demme(07:54): I actually got a text message from my husband that said, "iIt's happening. The thing we were afraid of is happening." Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:00): Oh, wow. Beth Demme(08:01): I tried to downplay it and say, "Oh, well, there are peaceful protests in America every day. And of course, it's their right to gather in DC. And of course, they have their right to free speech. And he was like, "You should look at the news." Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:18): Okay. You hadn't even looked yet. Beth Demme(08:19): I hadn't looked. I didn't know what was happening. And I thought he was being an alarmist. And then I actually looked at the news and saw what was happening and was equally alarmed. How about you? Where were you? Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:30): So, I was on a walk when it all was happening. I was walking my dogs. And I got back and I saw a text from my friend, and then I have a text chain with some of my other friends. And so, the first text I saw was at 2:39 pm on the 6th. And I just got a text that said people are so ridiculous, protestors breached the Capitol building. And I was like, "What?" And then he's like, "Yeah, a few hours ago. An insurrection that hasn't happened since 1814 or so." And then we go on to talk about it. And I immediately go to YouTube and start looking at news clips of what was going on. And my friends were messaging about it. And I was just trying to take in everything I could to understand what was going on. Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:21): Yeah. I mean, I just was glued to it. It was like trying to comprehend and trying to understand. And it was very much reminded me of 9/11 when the terrorist attacks happened. And we were just glued to the news to try to figure out what was going on. But this feels even scarier. I mean, I didn't think something could be scarier than 9/11, but this feels even scarier because this is our own people. This is not" them." This is us. And also, not knowing when it's going to happen again, where it's going to happen again. Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:55): And we, Beth, live in a capital city. We are in the capital of Florida, and there have been reports that every single capital is going to have protestors or rioters. I think they're saying riots in the capitals. And so, it's very uneasy to be living in a capital city and not knowing what neighbors you can trust. These are people that live here. These are people among us. Beth Demme(10:24): I agree with you. I definitely think it's a 9/11 moment. I think it will be one of those, where were you when you heard that the US Capitol was breached? Where were you when you heard that Americans were attempting to overthrow their own government? Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:40): Yeah. Yeah. To try to overthrow our democracy. I'm sorry. I was super unhappy in the last election. But there was no part of me... There was a part of me that, there was a little bit of question on some of the votes, I think in one state or something for Hillary, recount. There was something I remember, but it was done really quickly. And he had still won. And so, it was fine. It is what it is. Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:10): Democracy spoke, the people spoke. He got elected in 2016. And you know what? Democracy spoke. He was not elected in 2020. He is not the president of the United States. He has been impeached for a second time. You go down the history books for that. Good job for you. A hundred percent, I think he should be impeached. He has been impeached in The House. We're waiting on the Senate, whenever that happens. But he should never hold office again and be allowed to call himself a patriot because he's not. He has tried to overthrow. He has tried to ruin our democracy since day one. I mean, the lies, he has said all along the way, and I was not surprised sadly by what happened. I was hurt and sad, and embarrassed by everything. Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:58): And there are so many questions. I mean, there are so many questions. Why were they not prepared? What the freak? How were they not prepared for this? This had been, I mean, since he lost the election, he's been saying all these lies. How were they not more prepared for this? So, there are so many questions about that. And that a police officer was murdered at the steps of the Capitol, that is not okay. That has to be prosecuted. And I can't remember if they found, I feel like they have found the person that they actually saw a video clip of it. Beth Demme(12:31): Well, I know you said that you weren't surprised. I have to say, I was surprised. I continue to be surprised, shocked by it even. And it may be that part of the reason that the Capitol wasn't better protected is that it's really hard for me to envision Americans taking siege the way that they did. Beth Demme(12:51): And I know, and I've heard a lot of reporting about how it was well-documented on various extremist right-wing message boards and websites, and in their communications about what they wanted to do. But as much as this was organized, it was also disorganized. As much as it was organized by people who wanted to whip the crowd into a frenzy, I think that it ultimately went down the way that it went down, because there was this mob mentality about it. And it did go from just people who were gathered, because they wanted to be heard, to people who egged each other on to do these unspeakable acts against our country. So, I do think that it is, in my view, at least it is surprising. Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:41): I'm not surprised at all. There are angry, angry people in this country, in this world. And if all you look at all day long is hate, if all you think of is have a pessimistic attitude about everything, if all you are filled with is hate, and you have the weapontry and things to back it up, it wasn't surprising to me. Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:04): I do think that there were people there that probably got riled up, and that wasn't their intention. I do think there was a clear and organized piece to it. I don't think everybody was necessarily in on it, every single person there. But yeah, they all participated. And I think everybody that was there needs to be legally handled. Beth Demme(14:29): Yeah. And I think that many of them wrongly see this as an appropriate exercise of their First Amendment rights. And the reason that I'm saying that is because so many of them were willing to be on camera identifying themselves, but not only where they're from, but what their name is. And they just, I think they really felt entitled to go in and storm the Capitol the way that they did. We heard them saying things. If you listened to the videos, they say things like, "This is our house. This is our Capitol." And it's like, no, it's not yours individually. It is ours collectively, including the people who did not vote the same way that you voted. That's part of being an American. That's part of the beauty of our democracy. Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:12): Exactly. Something that just really stood out to me was the words that were being used, words that I hadn't ever heard other than read in a history book. And it's silly, but the musical Hamilton it's on Disney plus, and some words that I heard in Hamilton, in a musical from the beginning of our country that are being used today. And it just was like, so shocking to me that in modern day that these words bring you. Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:43): So, we didn't know what the title of this episode, because we just, we don't even know how to like comprehend all of this. This is still so new. I will say today's date is January 15th. So, this episode will come out after the inauguration. So, we can't comment on what happens, what's going to happen next. So, just know whatever we're talking about today is what's happened so far. Beth Demme(16:08): Yeah. Hopefully, we won't need to do an emergency update to this. Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:11): Exactly. Beth Demme(16:12): And that hopefully everything will go safely. Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:13): Yes. But insurrection, that's a term that like, "What? I have not heard that in modern time." Sedition, I'm asking my smart device what that means. Coup, incite, treason, these words are old terms. Although I was familiar with the word impeachment that has been very much in our modern time. So, I knew that term. But Beth, can you give us a quick definition, if some people don't know these terms because I had to look them up myself. Beth Demme(16:48): I definitely didn't think I was going to start out 2021 by diving into the legal differences between insurrection, sedition, treason. Because really when I saw what was happening, my first thought was that these people were traitors, that they had betrayed the United States. And so, I was thinking treason, but actually treason, you have to get an outside government. You have to either assist an outside government or get the assistance of an outside government in order for it to be treason. But insurrection and sedition are both defined under federal law. Beth Demme(17:21): And so, like I said, I didn't expect to spend, to begin 2021 by diving into Chapter 18 of the US Code, which is federal law. But it's there, whoever insurrection is, whoever incites, sets on foot, assists or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned, not more than 10 years or both, and shall incapable of holding any office under the United States. Beth Demme(17:52): And then they define, or it defines sedition, actually as seditious conspiracy, which is an attempt to force to seize or to take, or possess any property of the United States. And that can carry an imprisonment of 20 years. Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:11): What is it? What would that mean property? Beth Demme(18:13): I think that it could mean the podium that the speaker stands on. I think that's property. Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:18): Yeah. That's what I think. But if they took it off the grounds? Beth Demme(18:20): Yes. Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:22): It will be telling what all kind of transpires with all this. Because I know a lot of those people that were in those prominent pictures have been arrested. But I really am going to be curious to see how this all plays out, how far this goes, because this needs to be an example. This needs to be, this is not okay. This can never happen again. And these people need to be... And a lot of them, a lot of these people they're finding, already had criminal paths. Were already on the record for other things that they've done, crimes in the past. So, which is not shocking that a big part of the current president space is criminals, is not shocking. Beth Demme(19:07): It is shocking. Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:09): Really? Beth Demme(19:09): It is shocking. Sure. Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:11): I'm not shocked at all. Seriously, I'm not shocked. Beth Demme(19:13): I don't think that we should paint with a broad brush all of Trump's supporters as criminals. Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:18): I didn't. Beth Demme(19:18): I don't think that that's fair. Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:19): I didn't. I said some. Beth Demme(19:21): That would be true of Biden supporters too. There are people who support Biden, who are criminals. So, I don't think that that's fair. Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:28): I just said, I'm not surprised. I can have my own opinion that I'm not surprised. I didn't say they were all criminals. Beth Demme(19:36): Would you be surprised if Biden had supporters who were criminals? Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:39): Of course, he's going to have supporters that are criminals, of course. Beth Demme(19:41): Okay. So, it's not surprising? Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:43): No. Beth Demme(19:43): But that's not, it's not indicative of a Trump supporter that they would necessarily be a criminal. Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:50): No. Well, I'm definitely not saying Trump supporters are criminals, no. Half of our country are not criminals. Beth Demme(19:56): Right. Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:57): Or less than half, but are not criminals. No, no, no, no, no. I mean, I know Trump supporters, and they are not criminals that I know of, hopefully not. No, but I'm not surprised that he has pandered to a base that could do things like this. That's not surprising to me. Beth Demme(20:18): I want to back up for a minute to sedition because I may have made it sound more narrow than it is, because it's not just about property, of course, it's about conspiring to overthrow the government. The part that I think is interesting is that, you commit sedition, if you try to delay the execution of any law of the United States. And I wonder, since this was related to the Electoral College certification, if that's not pretty much on the nose, about what they were trying to do. Beth Demme(20:49): I think the thing that doesn't surprise me is this connection over privilege, which I know we'll talk more about in a future episode, but that somehow Trump has tapped into this idea that they have the privilege and the responsibility for saving democracy that they need to save their rights. Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:14): I think it has nothing to do with democracy. They're not saving democracy at all. They're trying to break democracy. Beth Demme(21:20): That's not how they see it. Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:22): Do they see it? Okay. He has opened the flood gates to white supremacists, and he's told them that they are special and that they are kind, and they are whatever the junk he has said. And he's allowed them to come to the forefront. They were always there. We've always had white supremacists. We've always had these hate, hate groups that have no place in modern society, but they're there. And they've been on the fringe, and he's allowed those fringe to be at the forefront. And he has said kind things about them. And it's just appalling. Beth Demme(21:56): Even on that day, he said, didn't he say something like, "I love you. You're great but you should go home." Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:04): Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Yes, go home in peace or something insane. And that's why Twitter finally has blocked his account or banned his account, or whatever, because he was inciting the violence. There's no question about that. For weeks and weeks, he has been doing this. And has been prepping them, has been telling them, has prepared them for this moment. I mean, it's just so sickening and appalling, but not surprising. I mean, we've been seeing this. Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:32): I knew something was going to happen. I didn't know what it was. I had no idea it was going to be this. I mean, I never would have wanted this to happen. There's no reasoning any of this. That's what's so dangerous about what Trump does, is he just says whatever he wants, just words, just lies, whatever he wants. And there are people that take every single word he says as fact. Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:02): And Pence says, he has followed every step of the way with this president. Like, oh my gosh, I think you did find the right vice president for you. And then to end with, "Yeah. Take him out." And for this crowd to want to murder him. I mean, when I heard first heard that I was just, "What?" And we will be remiss if we didn't mention this, like Beth said, we're going to talk about this more in a future episode that we had already originally planned. Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:34): But we've seen protests over the summer and we've talked about Black Lives Matter protest, which we fully support the protests. And we think are super important. And we know if this was a Black Lives Matter protest and not white supremacists overtaking the Capitol, it would have looked very different, which is a very, very sad reality. The fact of all of the racist things that were used in this protest, a noose being erected, Confederate flags everywhere, all of the things that just continue to push us backwards and to continue this racist- Beth Demme(24:11): Ideology. Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:12): Yeah, this racist ideology that is not okay and has to change. And so, we will be talking about that more in a future episode. Beth Demme(24:24): Not only did I learn more about sedition and insurrection, and cousp, and treason, and all those words, but I also learned more about some of the white supremacist symbols that they use, like the person who's been in the news so much who had the Camp Auschwitz- Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:44): Oh my gosh. Beth Demme(24:44): ... T-shirt, or the 6MWNE shirts, which stands for six million was not enough. That is a horror that I had not previously been aware of. Right? That there were people who call themselves Americans like I do, but that think that way, and who are so proud to think that way, that they would make t-shirts about that, and buy t-shirts about that, and wear t-shirts about that. Beth Demme(25:12): Also, like you said, the use of the Confederate flag, I've been pretty, I have been offended by the Confederate flag for a long time, but something about seeing it the way it was used on January 6th, it was almost triggering. I mean, I just thought you are going into the US Capitol with the battle flag of the Confederacy. That to me seems like they wanted to be traitors. They didn't want to be part of the United States anymore. They were saying, "Let us out." Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:46): Or no, they want to take over, "And this is what we want America to be. We want America to be the Confederate flag." Beth Demme(25:52): Right. So, let's kick other people out. Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:54): Yeah, exactly. Well, and there was a moment where they were trying to take the American flag down from the Capitol and put up a Trump flag. And think of what your brain's going through that you think that that's okay. I mean, and that's what these people were trying to do is overtake our country to make it Trump country. Beth Demme(26:14): And despite all of that, there was a member of the House of Representatives, who during the impeachment vote, had the nerve to stand up and say, "Well, we haven't brought any of the rioters in here to actually question them to see if they were here because of President Trump. So, you're making an assumption." And I thought, "No, this is not an assumption. They were carrying Trump flags." It's like you're saying they wanted to replace the US flag with the Trump flag. They were wearing Trump hats. They were there to see him speak. And then he said, "Let's march to the Capitol." And they did. Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:48): Yeah. Beth Demme(26:49): I don't know how you can even pretend, how that representative can even pretend to not see the connection between the president and what happened on January 6th. Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:00): There's no trying to fully make sense of any of this, because we will never know truly what's going through someone's brain like this. Is just, it's sad to see this tearing a part of our country. I mean, there was always different sides. I mean, Republican, Democrat, there's always been two very different viewpoints on way things should be run. And that's what our country's founded on, it's founded on the fact that we have different viewpoints, but we're going to come together and compromise, and bring those viewpoints to a middle ground. And we've just been getting more separate and more separate. And now, it's becoming a violent. And the violence has been allowed and has been encouraged from the top person in the country. Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:56): And I've just been holding my breath since election day, trying to get to this day. We're going to get beat down as far as we can to get there. Now, there's no part of me that thinks it's going to be easy. I just was like, head down. I'm not going to talk about it. I'm going to just pay attention to when I need to. I can't do that anymore. I have to literally watch my back because I don't know what's going to happen. Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:22): And luckily, when this episode comes out, you will know what happened because the inauguration will have already happened. And our part is not just voting anymore. Our part is not just, "Okay. I vote every four years." By the way, elections are more than every four years. Our part is not just voting anymore. Our part is paying attention, is talking to our neighbors, is figuring out how we can get along and how we can bridge this divide that has continued to strain our country. Beth Demme(28:56): The bishop for the United Methodist Church in Florida, Ken Carter--I've talked before about being a United Methodist, and I'm a United Methodist pastor, and I really appreciate his leadership--and what he did after this came out, and I'll put a link to this in the show notes, but he put a really heartfelt, he did a Facebook live and it was very heartfelt. And he said, if you have a friend who's in a cult, your natural inclination is going to be to do what you can to get them out of that cult. And what we see in America today is that we have a cult that has developed around Donald Trump. And it includes things like QAnon. And our neighbors who we are supposed to love as we love ourselves are being deceived and misled, and radicalized. And we can't just put our heads in the sand about that. Beth Demme(29:43): And I think that's really true, that it's not just a matter of feeling safe in my echo chamber and only being with people who agree with me or only talking to people who agree with me. But to be kind, but also courageous in saying to the people who I know who are getting caught up in this, I'll just label it QAnon, but I really mean the broader cult of white supremacy, and really trying to reach out to them in a loving way and say, "Can we talk about this? Can we talk about where you get your information? Can we talk about what you believe?" And to a large extent that may be fruitless and frustrating, and disheartening. But if I don't try, I feel like it'll be my fault. Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:31): Well, and the big thing is letting those people know that we're here, not drawing the line. I think that's a big thing for me, is I have some people in my life that they've gone. They've gone to that spot. They've gone way too far. And there's no taking them back from that side, but letting them know, not me not drawing that line and saying, "I will never talk to you again." This is, how can you be this person? But letting them know that, "I'm still here. I'm not going to participate in your hate things." But letting them know that when they need me, when they're ready, I'm here. I think that's a big part of any connection with somebody, is you don't have to support what they do, but not drawing that line in letting them know that when they're ready, that you are there for them and that you be a friend for them. And that's a hard thing. Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:26): I had something similar to that, not politically, but something similar to that in high school, and actually a good friend of mine that I'm still friends with, we really disconnected for a long, long time. And we finally reconnected and we're better friends than we ever were. But it was painful. There was many painful years where I wanted to connect with her, but she was so far in a different direction, but she always knew that I was there and that she could always come to me. And now, closer than ever. And actually, I want to have her on the podcast. And she knows, so hopefully we'll have her on sometime soon to share that story. But I think that's sometimes the only way we can be there for our friends, is just for them to know that we're there and to leave it at that, and to not push and pry. And just for them to know that you are a safe person, that you will be there whenever they're ready. Beth Demme(32:23): And to look past the beliefs they hold that you disagree with. But to look at them as a person, the same way that I want to be looked at as a person. I need to look at them in their humanity and appreciate their humanity. Beth Demme(32:34): I have an aunt who I have never been close to, actually I didn't even know she existed until I was in elementary school, it as a whole big family thing. And she posted to Facebook that she was leaving Facebook for Parler, and she wanted everyone to go with her. And so, my response to her was, "Wow, I'm really going to miss seeing your posts." Because probably one in 20 of her posts is political, so that's not her main use of Facebook at all. She actually has been, she is a person who is in recovery, so most of her posts are about recovery, and I find them helpful and encouraging. And so, I really will miss seeing that. And so my response to her was just, "I'm going to miss seeing your posts. But if you'd like to stay in touch, here's my email address." Right? So, trying to say to her like, "I understand that you feel like you need to leave this platform, but this platform is the only thing that connects us. And I'm sad to lose that." Because so much of our connection goes beyond our political differences. Beth Demme(33:42): Well, even on a day when we're talking about a hard topic or talking about hard things, we still actually have fun making this podcast. I really like having this time to have an honest conversation with Steph. And we do hope that you get something out of our honest conversations. And some of you have reached out and asked, what's the best way to support us? I want to give a big shout out to Suzanne, who bought us a couple of coffees. Thanks for doing that. Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:05): Thank you. Beth Demme(34:06): And for anyone else who would like to support us, we've tried to expand the podcast experience using buymeacoffee.com. And you can go there and buy us a cup of coffee, or for Steph, a cup of tea. And you can actually become a monthly supporter, and you'll get access to PDFs or the questions for reflection. And we do pictures on there and outtakes, and polls, and try to do some behind the scenes stuff on there to like we said, expand to the podcast experience. It's kind of things we would put on other social media channels, if we had created a social media presence for the podcast, but we didn't want to create more noise, right? So we're trying to just really funnel how we do this and be intentional about how we do it. Beth Demme(34:46): So, if you go to Buy Me a Coffee, you can become a supporter there. And you'll see exactly the content that you're looking for without a bunch of distractions. We just post once or twice a week. And also, give you a chance to give us your feedback as a member on our Buy Me a Coffee page. So, check out the show links and go there to sign up. Beth Demme(35:09): We're in a tough time. We're in a tough time in our country. So, I think that that's where we find ourselves. The show has to reflect that. Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:17): I always remember when we first started our podcast, and one of the defining things that we had for our podcast is we didn't want to be timely. We wanted it to be evergreen. Beth Demme(35:26): Evergreen. Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:27): So, I don't know which color green this is, but it's not ever. So, do you have any weird news, because you've been sharing some weird news? And maybe you'll have some weird fun news for me. Beth Demme(35:37): I have no weird news because the news itself is so weird. Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:41): In a horrible, horrible way. Beth Demme(35:43): Oh, wait, I do have one. I do have one. Sorry. I just remembered something that I read. Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:46): Okay. Beth Demme(35:47): So, this week there was a truck driver who was on a ferry entering the Netherlands from Britain. And because of Brexit, the officials in the Netherlands had to seize his ham sandwich that he had for his lunch. Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:04): Oh my God. Beth Demme(36:07): Because you're not allowed to bring in any food items- Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:11): Oh my gosh. Beth Demme(36:12): ... because they're not part of the EU. And that includes items for personal consumption. And so, I'll put a link to it in the show notes because it was from the New York Times, but he said, "Well, could you take the ham off and let me have the rest of the sandwich?" And they said, "No, we're really sorry. You can't bring in any part of this into the Netherlands." Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:31): Poor guy. He's probably hungry. That was good. Thank you, Beth. That was a lighthearted news article. So, I have one more thing. I have something it's not weird. But last episode you had mentioned that there was a little bit of an issue with Tosh. Beth Demme(36:50): Don't blame Mac. This is all on Tosh. Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:52): It's Tosh. She was a little smelly. Beth Demme(36:55): She had some gas. Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:57): Some gas issues. And so, you wanted me to take care of that. So, that was Tosh barking. Hear Tosh barking. She's so excited to hear this. She doesn't bark a lot. So, this is exciting for us all. So, I got something. So, you really, you're disgusted by my Macintosh that I have, my dogs. They're discussing. Beth Demme(37:19): Specifically the one end of Tosh. Yes. Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:22): So, I thought I would get you, something that smelled a little bit better. So, I got you a new Mac. This is a Mac scented candle. No joke. Beth Demme(37:35): Mac scented candle. Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:36): There is a company called 12 South. They make a lot of Apple products, like things for Apple computers. And this is, it's called Inspire. And it's a Mac candle. And it's the number two version. Because they had an original, and this is the second version. And it has a nice fresh scent. So I thought, because my Macintosh didn't smell so good, I thought maybe that one would smell better for you. Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:02): So, also you are not in person, probably listeners don't know that. You are not here right now. Long story, no one has COVID, but we're doing this remotely. And so, Beth, can not smell my wonderful candle or my wonderful [crosstalk 00:38:16]. Beth Demme(38:16): Great. So, she's just showing it to me and not letting me smell it at all. Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:18): But I ordered that for you. I thought of it the other day, and I was like, "I have to order the Mac's into candle because- Beth Demme(38:26): [inaudible 00:38:26] awesome. Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:26): ... it smells good actually. It's like fresh linen smell. Beth Demme(38:29): I love fresh linen smell. Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:30): I know. Right. Beth Demme(38:30): I look forward to enjoying it. Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:31): I know. I haven't even burned it either, because my mom has been loving. It's in a really nice container. Beth Demme(38:40): It's a very like Apple style [crosstalk 00:38:42]. Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:41): Right. I know. Beth Demme(38:42): Yeah. Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:42): Well, this company makes really good products like for Apple devices. So, I actually just bought a new watch charger on the watch charger stand when I was looking at the candle, because I was like, "Oh, this is nice." Beth Demme(38:57): We should put a picture of that candle on our BMAC page or Buy Me a Coffee page, because to me at a distance, at least it looks like an oversized AirPod container. It's like that same size, but it's a candle. Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:08): I might've made it look bigger by putting it towards the thing. Here, let me take a screenshot. So, next time we're together, Beth, I will have this candle going. And you can tell me if it smells better than my original Macintosh. Beth Demme(39:21): I look forward to it. Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:22): Yes. Awesome. At the end of each episode, we end with questions for reflection. These are questions based on today's show, that Beth will read, and leave a little pause between free to answer to yourself, or you can find a PDF on our Buy Me a Coffee page. Beth Demme(39:36): Number one, where were you when you heard that the US Capitol was attacked? Number two, did the news make you want to learn more or completely tune out? Why? Number three, have the events of January six, made you feel less safe with law enforcement and government? And number four, how do you feel about the fact that words like insurrection, sedition and coup are now part of our conversations? Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:06): This has been the Discovering Our Scars Podcast. Thank you for joining us.
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Meet StephMental Health Advocate. Author. Podcast Host. DIYer. Greyhound Mom. 
Meet BethI'm a mom who laughs a lot, mainly at myself. #UMC Pastor, recent Seminary grad, public speaker, blogger, and sometimes lawyer. Learning to #LiveLoved. 
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