E62: What is Cancel Culture?

Show Notes

• Wikipedia entry for “Cancel Culture”
• Why We Can’t Stop Fighting About Cancel Culture (by Vox)
• Steph’s YouTube channel
• Beth’s Facebook page
• Christmas Bible Trivia by Beth

Questions for Reflection

Each episode we offer you a few prompts to think about how that day's conversation applies to you. Our supporters over at Buy Me a Coffee now have exclusive access to the PDF versions of all our Questions for Reflection. Join us today! 

1. Have you ever participated in canceling or boycotting something? Why?
2. Have you ever felt pressure to participate in boycotting a person or company? Who did the pressure come from and how did you respond?
3. When someone or something is receiving a lot of negative press, do you tend to get on the bandwagon or do your own research?
4. If you could cancel one person or one thing, who or what would it be? Why?

Transcript

 
Beth Demme (00:04):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars Podcast.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:06):
Where we have honest conversations about things that make us different.
 
Beth Demme (00:10):
Our mission is to talk about things you might relate to, but that you don't hear being discussed in other places.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:15):
Our hope is that you're encouraged to have honest conversations with people in your own life. I'm Steph.
 
Beth Demme (00:20):
And I'm Beth. On today's show we're going to have an honest conversation titled: What is Cancel Culture?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:25):
Then we'll share a slice of life and the show will close with questions for reflection, where we'll invite you to reflect on the conversation in your own life.
 
Beth Demme (00:32):
What do we mean by cancel culture? What is cancel culture?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:38):
That's an interesting question, because we kind of were talking about this episode and I texted my mom. And I say, mom, do you know what cancel culture is? Because she's older than both of us, so I thought let's see if she knows, then I bet everyone would know. And she knew, but then I realized, wait, she's not a great person to ask because she knows everything. She's very up with like technology and terms, like if she doesn't know a term and she sees it.
 
Beth Demme (01:01):
She's a YouTuber, hello?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:03):
She is a YouTuber, so she knows those things. Anyways, she knew, but we don't know that everyone knows, so Beth, give us the definition of what cancel culture is. Oh, we should also mention that we are remote right now. We have done podcasts off... Mostly we've been in person recently, but I recently had an exposure to COVID, so we are remote and FYI I don't have COVID, but I'm just self isolating for 10 days as recommended by the CDC.
 
Beth Demme (01:30):
The definition of cancel culture is it's a modern form of ostracism in which someone is thrust out of social or professional circles, either online or in real life or both. And the people who are ostracized they're said to be canceled.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:45):
Beth.
 
Beth Demme (01:45):
It's sort of like if people want to boycott you, or they want to not listen to your music, or-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:53):
Can you boy-
 
Beth Demme (01:54):
look at your YouTube videos-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:55):
People want to boycott you? Do they boycott you? I think they boycott things. I don't know if they boycott you.
 
Beth Demme (02:02):
You can boycott people.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:04):
You can boy... Okay.
 
Beth Demme (02:05):
Yeah, you could boycott people.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:06):
Beth.
 
Beth Demme (02:06):
I mean aren't aren't people boycotting, J. K. Rowling. Isn't that a thing?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:13):
Spoiler, spoiler. That's what we're going to talk about. But wait, Beth, I wanted to say, I don't like what you just said, the definition. I think that was really offensive. And I don't think you checked all your facts and I think you're very insensitive, so I have canceled you.
 
Beth Demme (02:30):
You are going to cancel me?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:31):
You are canceled.
 
Beth Demme (02:32):
Well, you should cancel Wikipedia because that's where I got the definition from.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:36):
You got it from Wikipedia? You should be canceled Beth, Wikipedia. Oh my goodness.
 
Beth Demme (02:41):
I Googled cancel culture-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:43):
And it was the first thing to come up-
 
Beth Demme (02:45):
To get a concise definition.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:46):
Another good word for it, I would say is probably ostracized. Because that was in the definition of cancel culture, so if you don't know what cancel means, maybe ostracize, if you know what that means would make sense, which I do know what it means. Because I learned in seventh grade it was a word that we learned because it was going to be our SATs and I passed, I'm just saying. The reason we bring this up though is because we wanted to talk about something. There's something that kind of like I got into a couple of months ago, and we put it down as a point to talk about, because well, I'm just going to go for it. Right, Beth. Should I just say it?
 
Beth Demme (03:21):
Just go for it.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:21):
Okay.
 
Beth Demme (03:22):
Put it out there.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:24):
Something that I don't talk about often, because it's very personal, but very dear to me, I am a very big Harry Potter fan. I don't know why I don't talk about it more actually. I really should, but I really loved the books. I got into the books in high school, and then watched the movies, and I have the Lego sets. I'm a big fan and a couple months ago, maybe. I don't remember exactly when it was, I don't think it's been a full year, but there was some tweets from J. K. Rowling who is the author of Harry Potter book series and the whole Wizarding World franchise. But there were some tweets. And I remember seeing the tweets and being like, what?
 
Beth Demme (04:09):
Yeah, they were some weird tweets.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:11):
I was like, this is weird. I don't understand. And so we won't get into the tweets specifically, but I remember seeing it and I remember hearing people say, Oh, she's canceled. Oh, she is an anti-trans.
 
Beth Demme (04:27):
Yeah and people accused her of being anti-trans.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:30):
Not, yeah. Not supporting the trans community and just like she's canceled dah, dah, dah. And I'm like what? I was like, so in my mind I was like A, I read the tweets, they were weird, so they were weird. Then I hear people say she's canceled because she's not supportive. I'm like, okay, well the tweets were weird, so maybe there's some validity here. But as time went on, I started seeing like SNL for example, Saturday Night Live, they made a joke about how J. K. is like... We're done with her, she's canceled. And I remember thinking... And that was it. They were just like, she's canceled without any kind of like explanation. And so I kept seeing these things like, Oh, J. K. has gone off the rail dah, dah, dah, burn her books again.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:14):
It's like, Oh, we've done the burning books thing, like I'm whatever. I wanted to know for myself, like what exactly was happening, so I Googled it. I Googled J. K. Rowling weird tweets, something like that. And I actually found her website. She has a website where she wrote a long essay about the particular subject. And I took the time to read this whole essay. And this was like a couple of months ago that I actually read the essay. And I also read it last night again, because I wanted to have the fresh information. It was very interesting to me. Obviously she's a good writer. She wrote the best books ever, Harry Potter. I would say it was really well written, no doubt about that. And I thought she did a really great job of explaining the backstory of how that tweet happened and what her mindset and everything in between.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:07):
And it made me want to know more, it made me want to research. She was really talking about definition of women, the trans community. And when I read the article, I did not see her saying that she's anti-trans I did not see that in any way, shape or form. That's not how I read it. Whether I read it wrong, I did not see that. But she puts some things out there that made me think, Oh, these are things I need to be aware of when laws are taking place, when bills are passing, these are things I need to be paying attention to. I need to not just say, Oh, well, yes, we need more of this legislation. This is a good thing. I need to be present and conscious of what is happening. And that's really what it made me think of, what it brought light to for me. It wasn't that it was like everything she's saying is right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:00):
All of these things are horrible. Like it wasn't that, it just made me realize like, Oh, a lot of these points are interesting that I probably want to research to understand more about. And if I had just dismissed her like everyone has been doing culturally with the cancel culture, literally canceling her and not hearing her words. I think that would have been a disservice, because I like her work. I've only read the Harry Potter stuff. I haven't read her like other novels and things, but I wanted to try and understand her. I'm like, I don't want to cancel her, without like having full knowledge of why I would be doing it. And I haven't canceled her in my life. I'm not following her blindly, but I read the articles, I've read it twice.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:45):
And I thought it brought up some really good points that I want to learn more about. And the biggest thing that she said in the article was... She shared some like very personal things that she's experienced and why her point of view on these things are as they are. And I thought that was just really refreshing because for me, there's certain things that really affect me because of the history in the life that I've experienced. And so it's interesting to hear her point of view on things based on her history and life experience. And I think that's important to do and not just dismiss somebody. whether you agree with it or not, I think it's important to hear people's voices and it may not change anything that you think or choices you make, but I think it makes us stronger as people to try to understand every point of view.
 
Beth Demme (08:35):
Well, I think that is what's so interesting about it. I think no one wants to hear us say like maybe J. K. Rowling has a point, right, when she does talk about issues of gender. And I think part of what she is saying is that gender matters and that actually, that's why it matters for people who are transgendered as well, right? If gender really doesn't matter, then that would be, I think, dismissive of folks who are transgender. But that for me, the interesting question in it all, because I don't particularly feel like I need to, or could defend J. K. Rowling, but it's interesting to me that people feel like she owes us something, like she owes society something. She's expected to have a certain set of views because of the people who buy her books and like the idea of burning a book, what do you do?
 
Beth Demme (09:36):
You're going to go buy a book so you can burn it, that is not sending the right message to the author because you have just engaged in commerce with the author. All of that is sort of mind boggling to me, but what's the point of canceling her? Is the point of canceling her to say, we don't like this view that we believe you are representing? And so we want to send a message that that view is not okay. And you now have become the representative of that view. And so we want to cancel that view, so we're canceling you. Is that the idea behind it or is it that people feel they have some sort of a...
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:19):
It almost feels like cancel culture is like the anti, or is like if you're not politically correct, you're canceled. It almost seems like if she had said like trans lives matter, trans is [all the support of- 00:10:37]
 
Beth Demme (10:36):
Which she does say.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:36):
Yes.
 
Beth Demme (10:36):
She does say that.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:36):
I know.
 
Beth Demme (10:37):
Yeah. Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:37):
She does say it, but there's a part in the article actually, where she says, it would have been easier for me in response to all the hate to just say... She said, it would've been easier with all of the hate tweets she was getting to just use the approved hashtags and say, yes, of course, trans lives matter, human rights matter, all of those things, use those hashtags. And she said, there's a joy and relief in safety and conformity. And she could have done that and maybe ended this cancel thing, but that wouldn't have been her true view and her true voice. And I think it takes people that aren't afraid to get hate. It's hard to have a opposite opinion from the masses, being politically correct.
 
Beth Demme (11:30):
Yeah, an unpopular opinion.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:31):
Exactly.
 
Beth Demme (11:31):
It's hard to have an unpopular opinion.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:31):
It is, yeah.
 
Beth Demme (11:32):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:32):
And so I applaud her for letting her voice be heard and for saying this is how she feels. And I don't think it's coming from like a... I don't think it's a radical, crazy thing that she's saying, and it's not something that's as simple as this is what she's saying. That's why we're not like really going into detail about what she's saying. If you really want to know kind of what she's saying, you need to read it because I can't say exactly like the details of it because it's complex. She was writing a book and that's how all of this kind of research and conversation got started. She accidentally hit like on a tweet and then this kind of firestorm happened and it was this whole thing, but she wanted to give context behind this whole thing that we saw on Twitter, in how many characters you can write on Twitter, which is not a lot, so this gave her an opportunity to really kind of explain where it's all coming from.
 
Beth Demme (12:32):
But our bigger conversation is really about cancel culture.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:35):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (12:35):
It's not really about J. K. Rowling or what she believes, or whether she has correct beliefs, or incorrect beliefs.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:43):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (12:43):
I mean, our conversation is really about why is it that people get canceled. Has there ever been like a brand that you just turned your back on where you were like, you know what I'm done with them? I'm not going to buy that brand anymore, for any reason.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:02):
Yeah. I remember a couple of years ago, or it's probably been more than a couple of years ago now. There was the Toyota brand, there was a issue with the pedal-
 
Beth Demme (13:14):
Yeah, the accelerator.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:14):
The accelerator, and they knew about it. For a long time they knew about it and a lot of people lost their lives because of this issue with their car, and they finally issued like a recall and it was like this huge thing. And I remember hearing about that and being like that was so horrible what that company did, that they didn't take action way sooner. Like they were just like Oh, it's an isolated incident. Oh, another person died. Oh, isolated incident, isolated. And then it was like, it was their fault. And so, yeah, in my mind I have canceled Toyota. I wouldn't go pick it and put up a sign like cancel Toyota. I know people still shop and buy them. They're still a very popular company. I don't think people even remember that, but that's something that's stuck with me. And if someone was considering getting a Toyota and asked my opinion, I would bring that up because that's not a car that I would consider getting myself.
 
Beth Demme (14:11):
Yeah. And that to me is like, okay, there's something about this brand that I no longer trust-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:15):
Exactly, yeah.
 
Beth Demme (14:16):
Because... or maybe not no longer trust, but that I've never trusted because I know this part of their history, that to me is different than like the CEO of Toyota said something offensive therefore, I will never buy a Toyota.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:34):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (14:35):
Right. And that's really, I think where cancel culture comes in is that it's not even about a bad personal experience with the brand, or about bad customer service, or a company lying to us, or making defective vehicles that hurt people. Cancel culture is really about what people are saying and the political views that they hold and how then we're trying to exert pressure to change those views by canceling them.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:08):
Yeah, by just shutting down their voice almost. By saying we're not going to hear anything you say, it's like a child where it's like, nah, nah, nah, nah, I can't hear you.
 
Beth Demme (15:20):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:20):
I can't hear you.
 
Beth Demme (15:20):
Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:20):
And so that's basically like what cancel culture is, it's like if somebody says something that we don't agree with, it's like I don't want to listen. And believe me, there's plenty of people out there that you can say it and I'm not going to listen to them. There are some people that I just know, I'm not going to hear a word they say. But overall, I try not to do that with anyone, even if it's somebody that I totally disagree with. I try to... Maybe there is value in knowing their point of view. It's kind of like we've talked about in the past where like, there are certain people, religious people that if you try to say something about God or an opinion about it, and if it's different than theirs, they get just so offended.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:02):
And it's like if you can't have an honest conversation about your religious views, or about this, or that, and hear an opposite opinion, your views are very fragile. And I don't want to be in that spot where I'm so fragile with my views on something that I can't even have a opposite conversation, like have a debate or a disagreement on something. I think that's something that... I mean, we did it with Daniel, we had him on the podcast to talk about politics and that was hard. Darn, it was hard. But I think that is important to hear from people with different opinions than us.
 
Beth Demme (16:38):
There have been times though, when I have felt like I don't have a lot of power or influence, but if the way that I spend my money does have the potential to produce a change or to create influence. Then maybe I do have a responsibility to think that through. An example would be companies that had donated large sums of money to the National Rifle Association.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:09):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
 
Beth Demme (17:10):
Right. I'm actually not anti-2nd Amendment. I actually believe that there is a personal right to own and bear arms, but I no longer support the NRA. I'll say it that way, so I did want to know which companies are making these big donations.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:27):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
 
Beth Demme (17:27):
Because what do they hope to gain from that? And what does that say about their corporate motives and their corporate culture? I don't think that one consumer making a change based on that information is going to produce change.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:41):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
 
Beth Demme (17:42):
But what if 75% of their consumers made a change based on that, right? Or if they thought that there was the potential for that. I think there are some small examples of it. Companies deciding that they were going to limit gun sales or they were going to not make ammunition available or they weren't going to make those donations to the NRA anymore. In the wake of... I remember really coming up in the wake of another big tragedy, one of the mass shootings.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:12):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (18:12):
That I guess is cancel culture, but it feels different to me because it's on a corporate level and not a personal or individual level, right?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:22):
Yeah. I don't know if that's... To me, I don't think that is cancel culture, because I think cancel culture is more about like an individual for saying something. I think it's different then when a company chooses not to sell firearms, because are you saying the company that chose to not sell firearms, people were canceling that company?
 
Beth Demme (18:44):
No.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:44):
Oh.
 
Beth Demme (18:44):
That they gave into pressure that there was that there was-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:47):
Pressure for them to stop, yeah-
 
Beth Demme (18:47):
Cultural pressure, social pressure to make that change.-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:51):
Oh, and if they didn't change it-
 
Beth Demme (18:53):
And so they made a change.-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:53):
And if they didn't change it they would be canceled.
 
Beth Demme (18:55):
Yeah. And I think that's why cancel culture comes up because we're like, okay, we're going to exert this social pressure to try to create change in this individual, which is why it's so weird when it gets applied to an individual like J. K. Rowling, because what change are you hoping to make?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:09):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (19:09):
Right?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:12):
I don't think that's what cancel culture is. I don't think you're thinking that anything's going to change, you just don't want to let that person have a voice anymore. Like I think cancel culture is more when you cancel someone in the public eye and to not give them a voice anymore, so I wouldn't say like when a tragedy happens and companies cave to public or change based on public opinion, I don't think that's cancel culture. And I think a lot of things happen for the good that way. I know there's... Like when the black lives matter protests were happening heavily over the summer, there was companies that said that they were going to change.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:50):
I mean, Disney said they were going to change the Splash Mountain ride and some Uncle Ben's and Aunt Jemima's was going to change their names and things like that, so I think those things are good. But I wouldn't consider those cancel culture. I think it was like people said we've had enough and these things have to change, because society has changed and the things that we buy and participate in need to change. I think that's different than cancel culture because the definition you said of cancel culture was an individual being ostracized. I don't think you can ostracize a company, you can just stop patron-izing them, that's not a word.
 
Beth Demme (20:34):
Yeah. I think it's all part of the same thing though. And we can post links to stuff, to the articles about it, but it all seems to come from the same root, right? The same impetus that we are going to exert pressure to create change, and if an individual is making their living-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:53):
Well, whether it is or not, I don't think it's cancel culture. You do. That's cool. We can see it in different ways. Like I think a company is a different concept, but whether it is or not, what is at the heart of cancel culture to you? Do you think that's something that as society we need to be doing?
 
Beth Demme (21:14):
I think it's one of those things that there is a place for it in society, because I think that we need to be able to... I think it is right for us to say, that's not acceptable, right? You're not going to be in the public sphere. We're not going to give you a bully pulpit. We're not going to read every one of your tweets and read all of your books, if this is the message that you're going to put out there. For example, someone like Bill Cosby, I don't watch his shows anymore. I don't watch his old HBO specials.
 
Beth Demme (21:48):
I don't want him to have any influence in my life because I now know that he's not the person who he presented himself to be. Or Michael Jackson, really hard this time of year I got to say, because those old Jackson five songs are so great, like when I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus and it's like there were things happening in that family that led to the creation of that song, that led to them making the money that we're not okay, right. The kids were not treated well, and that ultimately created generational problems where Michael Jackson became an abuser, so I just don't want any of that in my life. Or R. Kelly, I'm not going to listen to R. Kelly's music, right?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:27):
You don't listen to Jackson Five at all.
 
Beth Demme (22:28):
No, this is the first year where I was like, wait, why am I listening to this?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:32):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (22:33):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:33):
It's interesting, because I know a lot of people have said that they separate the art from the artist, kind of thing. Where they still listen to Michael Jackson and all of that, so it's interesting. Would you say Michael Jackson has been canceled? And that includes his music?
 
Beth Demme (22:50):
I would say he's been canceled out of my life. I don't know that there's like a movement to cancel him, but I'm canceling him for whatever that's worth.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:59):
I've always been uncomfortable with him, like as a person. But I do listen to his music actually. I have listened to his music, but I agree like when I hear it though, it's kind of like, uh, there's kind of like a ick feeling as well.
 
Beth Demme (23:12):
It's hard to enjoy it.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:13):
Exactly.
 
Beth Demme (23:14):
It's like, why do I want to listen to this if I'm not going to enjoy it.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:19):
It's kind of like going to a restaurant during COVID. It's like, I can go but it's not super enjoyable like it used to be, with all my new knowledge that I could get COVID while I'm eating.
 
Beth Demme (23:29):
But I also hear that idea of well we don't want... There's too much political correctness.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:36):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (23:36):
And we don't want to be policing what people are saying because we want there to be free speech. And I think, yes, I do want there to be free speech. And that includes me having the right to turn it off, disengage-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:45):
I think-
 
Beth Demme (23:46):
Not receive the speech.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:47):
I think ultimately what it comes down to is people are culturally canceled as J. K. has been culturally canceled in, the overwhelming culture of the online world has kind of canceled her. But we as individuals have to make that choice. I think it's really important for us all to be able to not just listen to the noise around us, but to do our research, and to understand individuals and the stories behind them, and to make that choice for ourselves. Not to just listen to what society says. I mean, you always hear, they say this, they say that, who is they? Just stop and say, wait, why do they say it? Let me look into this myself. And I think that's ultimately what is important within cancel culture is not to just take their word for it, but to take your word for it, to research and look into these things that people are saying this person's a bad person. Why? Let me understand and let me make that choice for myself.
 
Beth Demme (24:45):
It's like cancel culture is culture should-ing on us.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:49):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (24:49):
You shouldn't listen to their music.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:50):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (24:50):
You shouldn't buy her books. You shouldn't read her tweets.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:52):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (24:52):
You shouldn't look at her Instagram. Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:54):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (24:55):
And we don't like that. We don't like to be should on.
 
Beth Demme (24:57):
Steph, if you could cancel one person or one thing, what would it be? Is there one that you would do?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:03):
I don't know. How about you? Let me see what your answer is then maybe I'll come up with mine.
 
Beth Demme (25:07):
Let's not say politics.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:08):
Okay, because I was going to say that's an easy one.
 
Beth Demme (25:10):
Let's keep it out of the political realm because-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:12):
Okay.
 
Beth Demme (25:12):
Partly because that's super predictable for you and me. In the cultural realm if I could cancel... I don't think it would be a person, but I think it would be an application. I think I would cancel TikTok because I have teenagers.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:32):
Yeah. Yeah, because you're a mom and you don't want that.
 
Beth Demme (25:33):
Yeah, because I'm a mom.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:35):
I don't know. Yeah. I try not to like completely dismiss people, things, ideas, all of those things for good. To make a hard statement of like never again.
 
Beth Demme (25:46):
That's a good point.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:46):
Because there's new information and there's new... When the Greyhound racing started in the United States, there was some really bad practices and dogs got hurt and really bad things. And over time it got really regulated and it was really well... The dogs are really well taken care of, but there was a lot of people, most people think that it's inhumane and they are not well taken care of and dah, dah, dah, all these things, so they've canceled Greyhound racing in their minds. And then from the little bit of research I did before I got my Greyhounds, I realized it's really well-regulated, they are well taken care of.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:24):
And then from my experience, being at the track, and being with the trainers, hearing them talk about these dogs and how much they knew about them, loved them, took care of them, so I have the unpopular opinion of Greyhound racing. I don't think is cruel. I'm very sad. Actually, Greyhound racing just ended in Florida and I'm bummed out because now there'll be no amazing dogs for me to adopt in the future. But it's one of those things where people just went with what cultural said, Oh, of course dog racing is horrible, of course. And so that's what people listen to because it has been, yes, it has been, but they never updated their thinking. And so I don't want to ever just say no to something. I can say no for now, but I want to make sure I keep updating my thinking, and updating my research, and seeing has things changed because there are many times where things has changed and what you once thought is not the case anymore. I think that's just something important we do as human beings, as we keep learning, and discovering, and understanding life in different ways,
 
Beth Demme (27:34):
We have so much fun making this podcast. And we've heard from some of you that you're wondering what is the best way to support us, so we've decided to expand the podcast experience using buymeacoffee.com. You can go there and buy us a cup of coffee or for Steph a cup of tea.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:49):
Yup.
 
Beth Demme (27:49):
Or you can actually become a monthly supporter. And that will give you access to PDFs of the questions for reflection as well as pictures, outtakes, polls, and more.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:58):
The kinds of things that we would put on social media if we had a social media channel, but we actually don't for the podcast because we decided from the beginning that we didn't want to add to more white noise in your life, so one of the great things about buy me a coffee is that you'll be able to actually get an email when we post new content. You can go straight there and you don't have to deal with ads or being bombarded with other content. You see exactly the content you're looking for without a bunch of distractions, we plan to post probably like once or twice a week. And we're excited to get your feedback as members on our, buy me a coffee page, which we are lovingly calling our B-MAC.
 
Beth Demme (28:30):
B Mac.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:31):
B Mac, so you'll be able to find a link in our description to find out more and to sign up.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:42):
Beth, have you been exposed to COVID-19 this week?
 
Beth Demme (28:46):
Well, I don't think I was exposed under the actual definition, like the health department's definition of exposure.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:53):
Oh.
 
Beth Demme (28:53):
I was around briefly someone who was COVID positive. How about you? Have you been exposed this week?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:00):
Wait, I want more of that story. What does that mean? Were you at the grocery store?
 
Beth Demme (29:05):
No, so I am just beginning some training as a hospital chaplain. And so I was in the emergency room doing some training and a person who was not supposed to be out of their room because they're COVID positive. And they were in the process of being... Well, they were being processed right as a patient.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:20):
Oh, gosh.
 
Beth Demme (29:20):
But they had had a positive COVID test. And so they were supposed to stay in their room with their mask on and they were wandering the hallways asking for help. And so it ended up that I was standing with the person that they asked for help. I was kind of like, and they weren't wearing a mask or anything, but I was wearing my mask, I was six feet apart. I didn't really feel like I was exposed.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:43):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (29:44):
If I had walked into her room-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:45):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (29:46):
Then I would have really been upset.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:47):
And it was probably not for-
 
Beth Demme (29:49):
But it wasn't that situation.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:50):
It was probably like a minute that you were with them.
 
Beth Demme (29:52):
I estimated it was like 60 to 90 seconds.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:55):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (29:55):
And there are many, not many, I don't know. I don't know how many people there would have to be to get to many.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:01):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (30:01):
There are patients in the hospital where I'm training, who are COVID patients who are there because they have COVID or they have COVID incidental to the reason that they're admitted to the hospital, but chaplains aren't permitted to provide support to them because of the level of danger that, that would present. And so they're in special rooms and it was all clearly marked and, but obviously we know you have been exposed, that's why we're doing this remotely, so yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:30):
Yeah, so my neighbor who has the other two Greyhounds in the neighborhood, actually her and her family got COVID and they got positive results on a Tuesday. And we were supposed to record this podcast on a Wednesday, but we moved it to a Sunday, but we're still doing it remotely. And I walked with my neighbors on Sunday of last week, so it's been a week. Outside, obviously we walked outside. That would have been weird walking inside, but with four dogs.
 
Beth Demme (31:03):
Just walk the dogs on treadmills, right?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:05):
Yeah, right.
 
Beth Demme (31:06):
Put the dogs on a treadmill.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:06):
Oh my gosh, four treadmills.
 
Beth Demme (31:08):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:09):
I have been wearing a mask all week around all human beings. The toughest one is my mom because I'm around her a lot. But for the first few days, once I found out she was positive, I wasn't around my mom. And so that was tough. And then once I kind of was out of that three, four day mark, I was like, I'm probably good. But I've been wearing a mask around her until the 10 days is up, which will be Wednesday as the CDC recommends 10 days of self isolation.
 
Beth Demme (31:39):
Yeah. And you know, you talked in this episode about staying up to date with information and I think COVID is a great example of that.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:47):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (31:48):
And the CDC is a great example of that. Like it's okay for science to continue to gain new information and new insights and for guidance's to be updated.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:56):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (31:56):
That's not a bad thing. It doesn't mean that there's any corruption, or fraud, or conspiracy.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:03):
Well just the longer this goes on, the more data they have and the more knowledge they have and that's with... And that's the same thing with life, with us as human beings, the older we get the more knowledge we have of life and the more we can take that information and make different decisions on things. Yeah, because they used to say 14 days to quarantine, but now they're saying 10 days, they just changed it this week actually. And they're also saying, which is new. I believe it's new is if you got a COVID positive test, you're not spreading the virus anymore. 10 days after when your symptoms first showed up, which is new because the last I heard was it's five days after your last COVID symptoms, so this is 10 days after your first COVID symptoms. It's a different way of looking at it, so I thought that was interesting.
 
Beth Demme (33:00):
Yeah. And the reason that we should all be wearing masks is that you can actually be contagious before you are symptomatic.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:05):
Two days.
 
Beth Demme (33:06):
And so-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:07):
Show symptoms. Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (33:09):
Just wear your mask.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:09):
Which is basically what I was freaking out about because I was with them Sunday and they got a positive test on Tuesday, so they would have been shedding the virus when we were walking. But when I'm around people without a mask, which is not often, it's pretty much you Beth and we have a plexi between us. And it's them, literally, those were the people and my mom, and that's it. But I keep my distance. I do keep my distance when we're outside and we're walking around and I'm typically in the front because my dogs walk faster, so I am always very conscious of that anyways, so it kept me safe this time, it seems.
 
Beth Demme (33:49):
Well, we don't want people to cancel us, so why don't you remind everybody if they want to find you on social media, where's the best place to do that. And what's your info.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:58):
Don't cancel me. I would like to say, if you want to get a little more inside scoop of what's going on with me, check out my YouTube channel. It is actually on YouTube, go to YouTube and we'll put a link to it below because I'm going to spell it out and you're going to be like nope, so my YouTube channel is my name Stephanie Kostopoulos, I'm not going to spell it because it's really long, but we'll put a link to it below. And I've been putting some vlogs on there recently of my adventures with my dogs and some trips to the woods, so I would say, check me out on there. How about you Beth?
 
Beth Demme (34:34):
You can find me on Facebook @bethdemmespeaks. It's Beth, B-E-T-H. And my last name is Demme, D-E-M-M-E and that is my Facebook page where I post about whatever I have going on in my blog, and whatever I have going on here on the podcast.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:50):
Sweet.
 
Beth Demme (34:51):
And I have a special thing actually, I should mention, I have a special thing that people really love this time of year. It's a Bible Christmas trivia.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:58):
Ooh.
 
Beth Demme (34:58):
So we all tend to think that we know the story of Christmas as it's told in the Bible. But actually a lot of what we think is in the Bible is really cultural. And so I have this short little trivia game, it's kind of fun to do with family and friends. And it all came about because many years ago, the Bible really embarrassed me at a Christmas party, when I thought I knew the biblical Christmas story and then realized I didn't. And so we'll put a link to that in the show notes too, because it's a fun resource for people to have this time of year.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:29):
Is it on your website?
 
Beth Demme (35:32):
If you go to bethdemme.com/christmastrivia, it should come up.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:35):
At the end of each episode we end with Questions for Reflection. These are questions based on today's show that Beth will read and leave a little pause between, and you can also find a PDF on our buy me a coffee page.
 
Beth Demme (35:47):
Number one, have you ever participated in canceling or boycotting something? Why? Number two, have you ever felt pressure to participate in boycotting a person or company? Who did the pressure come from and how did you respond? Number three, when someone or something is receiving a lot of negative press, do you tend to get on the bandwagon or do you do your own research? And number four, if you could cancel one person or one thing who or what would it be? Why?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:20):
This has been the Discovering Our Scars podcast. Thank you for joining us.