Show NotesQuestions for Reflection
Each episode we offer you a few prompts to think about how that day's conversation applies to you. You might pause the podcast and answer them right then and there, but if you keep a journal (Steph and Beth both do), you might find one of these PDFs useful. Choose the orientation that fits best in your journal.
Transcript
Beth Demme (00:04):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars podcast. Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:07): Where we have honest conversations about things that make us different, I'm Steph. Beth Demme (00:11): And I'm Beth. Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:12): I've been in recovery for 13 plus years and recently released my memoir, Discovering My Scars, about my mental health struggles, experiences, and faith. Beth Demme (00:20): I'm a lawyer turned pastor who's all about self awareness and emotional health because I know what it's like to have neither of those things. Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:26): Beth and I have been friends for six years, have gone through a recovery program together, and when I wanted to start a podcast, she was the only name that came to mind as co-host. Beth Demme (00:34): I didn't hesitate to say yes because I've learned a lot from honest conversations with Steph over the years. Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:40): We value honest conversations and we hope you do too. Beth Demme (00:43): So today is May 6th, 2020 around 9:30 in the morning. Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:52): We don't normally timestamp our episodes, but we think it's important to do that today. Beth Demme (00:56): Yes, as we have thought that it was important to do it for the last several weeks because we're in the midst of the coronavirus outbreak. We're in the midst of this pandemic, in the midst of this quarantine, and things are changing day by day. So Steph, what is changing now? What are we talking about today? Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:16): Well, we are seven weeks in, if not more. Is it really over? That is what we are talking about today. And- Beth Demme (01:25): Yeah, it must be over because States are reopening and this is like, let's have a parade and get out the trumpets and, hey, I read yesterday that the Vice President said we don't even need the Coronavirus Task Force anymore. Go America, go humanity, we beat the coronavirus! Woo hoo! Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:43): Woo hoo. Beth Demme (01:45): This is good news. Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:46): Yes, I wish I had balloons. Beth Demme (01:48): Mission accomplished. Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:50): Done, we have landed. So are you feeling like it's over? Are you eating in restaurants? I know it was a Cinco de Mayo yesterday and I was walking the greyhounds... oh by the way, new alert, my neighbor who has one greyhound, they just got a second greyhound. Beth Demme (02:13): Woo-hoo. Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:13): Yeah, so if you see three greyhounds walking around Tallahassee, that's our gang, yes, the grey gang. Beth Demme (02:18): Oh, the greyhound gang, oh the gray gang, I like that. Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:20): The gray gang. He still doesn't have a name, so we're calling him boy grey. They are very indecisive on the name, but I know it's going to be good. Beth Demme (02:29): They wouldn't want to call him just grey though, right? Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:31): No, I think Earl Grey is a cute name, because that's the name of a tea. Beth Demme (02:35): That's cute. Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:35): And then there's a tea called Lady Grey. Their lady grey's already named Layla, so. Beth Demme (02:40): Yeah. But there was that whole trilogy of books, were there three of them? About the 50 Shades of Grey-- Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:46): No, no, don't go there. Beth, don't, no no. Beth Demme (02:49): And the main characters name, wasn't it Grey? So they wouldn't want to name their dog Grey because people might think that they're really into those books. Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:56): No, why? Why would you bring it there? This is wholesome. Greyhounds? The best thing ever. No. Although we have joked about the different shades of greys that we have. Anyways, we were walking the greys yesterday and we walked past a Mexican restaurant and there were people standing outside the door because in Florida now, restaurants can be open to 25 of capacity I think, and people were experiencing that. Beth Demme (03:27): Right, with outside seating I think they can have their full capacity. Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:30): Yes. Beth Demme (03:31): And a lot of Mexican restaurants, and other restaurants, have outside seating. So yeah, I'm not surprised at yesterday for Cinco de Mayo they were out there. I however, am not going in to restaurants because as much as I want to celebrate, and I want to feel like this is over, I don't even think we've peaked yet in Florida, and where we are in Northern Florida, Southern Georgia, I think it's too early to go to the tattoo parlors, I think it's too early to go to the restaurants, I don't know. Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:59): To me it's very, I'm a little frustrated with the process. Like I don't debate that things need to slowly reopen. I think it's inevitable, because this is going to be around, the virus hasn't gone away. It's still there, it's still out there, we can still easily get it just as before, but I do think we need to start reopening. My frustration is the first thing they reopen is restaurants. You cannot wear a mask and eat food. There's not a possibility with that. So my frustration right now is, the thing that they're saying, but not saying loud enough, is masks are vitally important, and six feet apart. Social distancing is still as important, if not more now. And I feel like that's getting as a second thought, but it's not in the forefront. Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:45): I went to some stores this week and already saw less people wearing masks, and it made me frustrated because masks are vitally important for the safety of other people. When I wear a mask, I'm protecting everyone I'm coming in contact with. If I have the virus, helping protect them from getting the virus from me. That's what a mask is doing. And so it's frustrating to me to see restaurants reopening when they've already been able to stay open with takeout, which is a much safer environment than a waiter taking your order, you eating, particles coming from your mouth as it happens when you eat and talk, and so that part is frustrating to me. Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:24): And then, you know, the dog park hasn't reopened. You can easily social distance at the dog park. So there's a lot of just things that don't make sense. There's a lot of not being clear on how important masks and distancing still is. So to me, it's heck not over. Beth Demme (05:46): I'm with you a hundred percent, I think it is important to reopen, and I think because it is important to reopen, and we don't want to get ourselves into a situation that's worse than what we were facing in March and April, I think it's important that we reopened with really clear guidelines about what we can do to make sure that this doesn't explode in an even bigger way. And masks are a really simple thing, but I'm with you, I had to go out for a couple of essentials just yesterday and most people were wearing a mask, but not everyone was. And also I could be reading into it, but I felt like the people who weren't wearing a mask were judging me. Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:29): Mm-hmm (affirmative). Beth Demme (06:30): Because I was wearing a mask and I thought, I'm wearing this mask for you. Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:33): Exactly. Beth Demme (06:33): Not for myself. This doesn't protect me one bit, I'm doing this because in the event that I have contracted the virus and I'm asymptomatic, I do not want to spread it around. Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:44): Yeah, I think that's the message that is getting lost in this whole reopening thing, and that's what's really frustrating me right now. And I was thinking back to April, and April's gone now, it's done, and when I look back on it, it almost feels like a dream. Beth Demme (07:00): Bye April, bye. Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:00): It almost feels like a dream, like it didn't happen, because I didn't have the anxiety like I had in March. March, every day there was something new, and something devastating, and something that was just like, what? This is happened, or this has happened. And in April, we knew we were going to be shut down. We knew we were in for a month, and I didn't have much anxiety. I got a lot of stuff done. I just stayed busy. Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:28): But now in May, where things are reopening, that anxiety is coming back. That fear is coming back. That unknown is coming back because when you do pay attention to the news, you hear a second wave, you hear the experts saying we shouldn't be reopening. You're hearing all these things, but the masses aren't hearing these things, and are going about like we've won. And I don't even know what that would look like, winning. Beth Demme (07:56): One of the things that added to the anxiety of March is it felt like we were watching the virus come, like march closer, or move closer this way, right? And so we were saying, we watched it happen in China, and then we watched it move across, we didn't get very much reporting about what happened in Russia, but then we saw it in Europe. Right? And then we watched it explode in Italy. We watched it explode in Spain. And then it started to happen here in the US and so it was like, it's getting closer and closer and closer, and now it's everywhere. Right? It's right here in our zip code, for example. And yet there seems to be less anxiety, and that's counter-intuitive to me. Like now that it's here, we're going to say everything can be open? Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:47): Well something you mentioned when you went to the store the other day, some people looked at you like you were strange for wearing the mask. I think that too, I've felt that too when I'm wearing a mask or you know, being distant from somebody, and now that we're kind of in this spot, I feel like that's going to continue happening. And by the way, we're still remote podcasting, but I bet there's people that would say, why are you still remotely podcasting? We're reopened. I mean, you're two people, you can meet in person. And you know, at some point, probably in the near future, we're probably going to really feel silly that we're still remote podcasting. And I mean, I even thought about it like, is it time for us to get back together? I mean, you can be in a restaurant, why can't we be next to each other? Beth Demme (09:36): That's true, actually. We could go have brunch together, but we're choosing to remote podcasts. I hadn't really thought about it that way, except that I really love having brunch, but I don't want to do it right now. Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:49): Yeah, and that's the thing is, I was just thinking today, when will I feel comfortable going back to Starbucks and working for two hours? I have no idea because yeah, I can go to a restaurant right now, but I'm not going to feel a hundred percent comfortable like I have in the past. I'm going to be worried about all the little things, like the person standing taking my order, you know, but I feel like the longer we go on, we're going to be the people that are looking like we're overly concerned about this, and that's just probably going to bring me more anxiety, so awesome. Beth Demme (10:24): Yeah, I think that it becomes less socially acceptable to take the virus seriously, and it becomes less socially acceptable to do things that we are doing, not for our own benefit, but because we care about other people. Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:40): Yeah. Beth Demme (10:41): Which is so strange. Like we as a society should be wanting to do everything we can for each other, and something as simple as social distancing, limiting your exposure, wearing a mask. Those things are things we can do, not for our own benefit, but for the benefit of our fellow humans. Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:03): And by doing those things for other people, we're also protecting ourselves. Like I don't know why that's a hard concept to understand. Like when we drive on a road, we follow the laws of the road so we don't get hurt and so other people don't get hurt. How is that hard to understand? I mean to me, wearing a mask now out in public is like wearing pants. Do you question wearing pants? Do you question putting on shoes when you go? You don't question it, it's just part of what we do. Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:32): And so to me, wearing a mask is just part of what we do. I don't understand why that's such a hard, and why people are protesting that. I mean I get it, because people, there's a segment of people that are angry and anything they can get behind and protest and do that, they're going to do, no matter how out there it is, so I get that, but it just makes me sad and frustrated and it's not productive. Beth Demme (11:59): Yeah, I think it's true that for some people there's just a value in being contrary. Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:03): Yeah. Beth Demme (12:03): So whatever the government wants me to do, I'm going to say the opposite of that is what's good for me, and I'm strong because I'm standing up to the government. But what if, just what if, sometimes the interests of the government are also what best serves the majority of the people? I recognize that government is imperfect, I totally recognize that. This seems to me like a simple thing, right? Wear a mask. Beth Demme (12:30): One thing about restaurants is, if you had asked me, not if you had asked me, because I don't know if I would have been self aware enough about it, but if you had looked at how I spent money through March 16th, 2020, it would have looked like restaurants were essential to me, because I ate at a restaurant every day for years, every day. And now I haven't been in a restaurant since March 17th. Beth Demme (12:58): And so now I'm thinking maybe restaurants aren't as essential to my well-being as I thought. And so, if they're not as essential to my well-being, then I don't need to go there until I know that it's safe. Which brings me back to your point about when will it feel safe again to go and sit in a Starbucks and have that as like your workspace, because now it's like the risk-benefit analysis is different, because there's a risk that it could make you very sick, or that you could contract a virus that would then make someone who you care about sick. Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:31): I don't know, it just, I don't like it. I want to go back to Starbucks. I want to go to a restaurant, yeah, I miss them, I do. I'm tired of eating food that I've made. I'm tired of making food. I'm tired of that, yes. I mean we got to keep it, I got to keep it up. I don't know. No one else seems to care. Beth Demme (13:52): This is not a fully developed thought, so you can tell me if I'm way off base here, but you know when there's a mass shooting? Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:02): Yeah. Beth Demme (14:02): How that changes our sense of security. I don't remember how long ago it was, but there was that terrible mass shooting in a movie theater. And so then there was this period of time where it was like, I don't know if it's safe to go to the movies. Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:17): Yeah. Beth Demme (14:17): And I don't have to go to the movies, so I think I'll just stream something right now, because I don't feel totally safe. That is in a way similar to how I feel right now about restaurants, right. That if I were sure that it was safe, it's an activity I would love to do. It just isn't essential for me, and so why take the risk? So that's why I'm saying I think the cost-benefit analysis, or risk-benefit analysis has shifted because of coronavirus, and it feels like maybe that analysis hasn't shifted for policymakers because when they do that analysis, they're thinking about the revenue generated by the restaurant. Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:57): I cannot wrap my mind around, specifically restaurants, how that's an okay thing right now, because by saying restaurants can reopen, you're saying masks aren't essential. That's to me what you're doing, and then everything unravels. If you think it's okay to open restaurants, you don't think mask are essential, so then you don't think we need protecting each other. That is just, it's making me frustrated, and when I see people not in masks, I just get more frustrated than I have before. I feel like we're back in March, and March was not a good month. Who knew I would want to go back to April? Beth Demme (15:33): I think what you just said is the crux of the issue, that when we hear that restaurants can reopen, it sends the message that masks are not essential. That's the whole thing. That's the whole problem for me. Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:51): And by saying masks aren't essential, you're saying human life is not essential. You're saying that we're expendable. That is inevitably what's going to happen, the more people are in the same spot, the virus is going to continue to spread, and you can see how quickly it spreads. Beth Demme (16:08): It also is a signal that everything that we've given up for these last seven weeks, that it was for nothing. Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:16): Yeah. Beth Demme (16:17): That doesn't feel good. Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:19): No, I think it's counter-intuitive to our nature, and specifically being American, like we want to know this is the plan, we're done, we're good, we're moving on. But we don't have that. Beth Demme (16:32): I feel like an essential American trait is rugged individualism. That we are self-sufficient people and that we don't really want to rely on the government, which I understand. I would uphold that as a value, but in that case, my rugged individualism would tell me that I want society to thrive because that's what's in my best interest and therefore I will wear a mask because I want to do what I can to make sure that our society thrives. Instead of saying rugged individualism means I'm the only one who matters and it's uncomfortable to wear a mask because it fogs up my glasses and it makes my face feel hot, so no mask for me. Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:16): I would agree. I think we're at a turning point in that thought process, in the thought process of us being the sole people, we're responsible for us and no one else. I think we're at that point where that has to change. It either will or it won't, and I think that is going to be part of the success or failure of this pandemic. People realizing they can't do everything on their own. I mean I realized that. In March I remember thinking, how am I going to eat? Where am I going to get food? What if they close all these things, and I need people, I need to be around people, as much as an introvert as I am, I've chosen to still spend time with my neighbors and their greyhounds and still go walking, and I do need people. I couldn't survive on my own. I mean I need, we're the human race for a reason. Beth Demme (18:11): Right, and we live in a very... part of living in a society means that we are all interconnected. So I need people to be healthy enough to work in meat packing plants, and I need it to be safe for them to work there, because I don't have any cattle that I can harvest so that my family can have meat, right? I am dependent on them. So the idea that I can be completely self sufficient is a fantasy. Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:37): Well you brought it up, Beth, but speaking of meat plants, what are your thoughts on the fact that meat plants are forced to stay open? People that are working in them have no legal recourse now when they get sick and when they're in these bad environments. What does that say to you about that human life that's on the front lines of our meat? Beth Demme (18:58): So as someone who spent some years defending corporations, I would say that when you need the government to give you that level of protection, you know you're doing something wrong. And so the value there is money over people, and that is not a pro life ethic in any sense. And so it troubles me. Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:23): I was really frustrated when I heard that. I think it's called, the Defense Production Act I think. Beth Demme (19:28): I think so. Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:28): Is something that we just, I think recently started hearing about in March, where that act could force companies to do certain things. And I remember early on when masks were not being produced, we were all asking why has that not been enacted? Why is it not enacted to force companies to only solely do mask? And I think ultimately it was enacted, but those companies were already like, yeah, we're doing it, we're making them, we're making ventilators, all that. But I believe I heard that that was enacted almost immediately for the meat companies to continue to stay open, and that is what allowed them to not have any legal recourse. Their employees can't sue the companies for staying open and not following certain procedures. Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:18): That was super frustrating to me to hear is, when our hospitals needed masks, they were dragging their feet. When we need a more ventilators, they were dragging their feet. But when it came into question that we might not have enough meat, it was immediately enacted, and that immediately had a direct effect on those human lives that were producing our meat saying, we don't care about your lives, your lives don't matter. Our meat matters. And that's super painful to think about, and to think about all those people that are being forced to work. I eat meat, I think meat's important. I think meat has a very good source of high protein for us and it's important. Can I live without meat? Yes. Is there protein in other food? Yes. Would I eat no meat for months on end to help protect those lives? Yes, yes I would. I would eat freaking beans. Beth Demme (21:14): I do prefer to have the food chain intact, the food production system intact. But I'm with you that again, we're talking cost benefit analysis and is it so important to me that I think human life should be sidelined? No, of course not. My other concern about it is that this may just be, this is the cynic in me, but that this may be the beginning of widespread legal protection so that companies can not live up to their duty of care, particularly for their employees. Any business that's deemed essential to the economy, which what we've shown in Florida is that we believe every business is essential to the economy. World Wrestling, right is essential to the economy, the WWE. Beth Demme (21:55): So any business that is essential to the economy could make an argument that they deserve protection from, you know, they deserve to not be held liable if something associated with their business causes people to get sick. That's, I don't think that that's the right value for us to uphold as a society. What would it take, Steph, for you to be comfortable going back to Starbucks to work for a couple of hours? Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:22): Well number one, the thing that I think needs to happen, it needs to be required, whenever you're in a public setting, that you wear a mask. To me that's a given. Beth Demme (22:32): Just like pants. Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:33): Just like pants. Masks are the new pants. I don't think- Beth Demme (22:37): Pants for your face. Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:39): It's just pants for your face, come on. Beth Demme (22:41): It's pants for your face, come on people, put on your pants, including your face pants. Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:45): I think when we take part in certain services, there are certain things that we have to take part in. So for example, when you go to Disney, your bag is going to be searched. You know that, if you want to be a patron of Disney, you have to have your bag searched. I don't like it, but I know that's what's going to happen, and that's okay. If I want to go to Disney, that's what's going to have to happen. Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:08): If I want to go into a business, I'm going to have to wear a mask, okay, that's what I do. So I don't see why it's all an up in arms thing, it's just when you go to someplace, this is what we have to do. So I think number one, have to wear a mask. Number two, how do you wear a mask and eat food? I have no idea. I literally can't process how you would do that. When you're eating food, the juices of your mouth are doing things and those juices can find their way out of your mouth. It's disgusting, and exactly why it's a big issue. Beth Demme (23:45): The juices of your mouth do things. Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:47): Just think about it, when people chew- Beth Demme (23:48): That's the coronavirus lesson, that's the takeaway. Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:51): When people chew, when people chew and talk, I mean it's disgusting to think about. You know it. Beth Demme (23:58): Then let's not think about it, please. Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:00): I'm sorry, but we have to think about it because it's happening and, well I don't have to because I have no policy decisions here, but I'm just saying is like, will I feel comfortable going to Starbucks? A place where I drink and sometimes eat, I don't know, because people are drinking and eating all around me. People are drinking and eating, their mouth spittle is on the table. Beth Demme (24:22): You know how when you get on an airplane, I think I learned this from you, the idea of getting on an airplane, even before all this, getting on an airplane and wiping down the tray table, because they don't get wiped down and so they're really gross. Maybe that's part of our new normal, whenever we do decide that it's okay to go back into restaurants, maybe we need to be bringing our own wipes and wipe down the table ourselves. But then what about the chair? Like I had to pull out the chair to sit down, do I need to wipe that down? Oh, what about my glass, did that comes straight from the dishwasher to me? No, a human held it. Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:53): What about your talking, the particles can live in the air. How long are they living in the air? We still don't know. So when you sit in the same chair that someone else was sitting in, are you sitting in their cloud of whatever? I mean, I had seen an article or a video that sayings, a while back, not even just at the start of the coronavirus, but a while, maybe years, there had been research given to grocery stores about the importance of having these fans that actually suck up the air, because a virus can live in the air. This was given to grocery stores, this was told to them and they did nothing about it. Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:31): And so to me, I think, for me to truly feel safe in these kind of places, that kind of infrastructure has to be installed in public places, that kind of thing that can pull... so the concept is your air particles can stay in the air, and we don't know for how long, but by having an airflow, it can get rid of it quicker, and having airflow up, sucking that up, can take care of it super fast compared to how it normally is. And if you watch, there's research on showing how someone sneezes, when they sneeze in a grocery store, it can go through aisles. It's disgusting. Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:09): I mean, that's been happening, and it's no big deal, but now with this virus, and with potential other viruses in the world, that is more important than ever to have those kinds of things built into public places. To me that's like a given, that should be happening right now, especially in those kinds of places. Beth Demme (26:28): I could see that being a real competitive advantage for places, to be like, we are the ones who have installed this because we understand that viruses can live in the air, and so these are the steps we're taking to make sure that the air within our building is as clean for you as it can be. And I bet it wouldn't be even that dramatically expensive for them to do it. Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:48): Well I would for sure go to businesses that had that built in. I mean, I go to Fresh Market because they have really taken this serious, everyone that goes in has to wear a mask. They have things marked off, like they have been taking it very serious, and Trader Joe's has as well. They haven't required masks fully, which I do wish they would go all the way. But overall, like all their employees are wearing masks, they have things marked off. They're doing a very good job. So I already am going to places specifically that have been set up like that and being very observant of that. Beth Demme (27:24): Well and that's the thing about there not being really clear guidance about the issue of masks and how reopening restaurants calls any guidance about masks into question, because what we're really saying is that they aren't important. Then you have to wonder how long can a place that is currently requiring masks, like Fresh Market, like how long can they maintain that? Stephanie Kostopoulos (27:48): Yeah. Beth Demme (27:48): How long will it be socially acceptable for them to have that as a requirement? So you and I, we're all in, we're ready to have... how did you describe it to me the other day? You said, we just need to have a drawer of masks like we've got a drawer of underwear. Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:04): Oh yeah. Beth Demme (28:05): Right, you're just going to reach into your drawer and pick out today's task. Beth Demme (28:07): Exactly. Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:09): You and I are all in on that, but also I think we're seeing that pretty quickly we're going to come to the point where, or at least I feel like, I have this feeling and it's not a good one, and I have this feeling that we're going to get to the point where like you and your mom and I are the only people left wearing masks. And at that point, we don't need to wear masks cause we're only doing it for other people. Beth Demme (28:28): Yeah. Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:28): We're not doing it for ourselves. Beth Demme (28:29): Yeah. Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:36): Thank you for joining us today for this honest conversation that Beth and I had. We hope the takeaway today was to wear a freaking mask. Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:50): At the end of each show, we like to end with questions for reflection, these are questions based on today's show. Beth will read them, and leave a little pause between for you to pause the podcast and answer them to yourself, or there's a PDF available on our website. Beth Demme (29:02): Number one, how does it make you feel when you see other people not wearing a mask? Number two, what concerns do you have about businesses reopening? Number three, who do you have in your life that you can talk to about what's going on? When's the last time you really did that? And number four, do you feel like the worst is over? Are you more comfortable going out now? If not, what would it take? Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:31): This has been the Discovering Our Scars podcast. Thank you for joining us. 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Meet StephMental Health Advocate. Author. Podcast Host. DIYer. Greyhound Mom. 
Meet BethI'm a mom who laughs a lot, mainly at myself. #UMC Pastor, recent Seminary grad, public speaker, blogger, and sometimes lawyer. Learning to #LiveLoved. 
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