E102: Signed, Sealed, and (formerly) Mormon

Show Notes

Katie Langston's Website
Follow Katie on Twitter

Questions for Reflection

In each episode, we offer you a few prompts to think about how that day's conversation applies to you. Our supporters over at Buy Me a Coffee now have exclusive access to the PDF versions of all our Questions for Reflection. Join us today!  
 
Landscape or Portrait

1. Do you know any Mormons? Have you ever had a conversation with them about their faith beliefs?
2. Are you still part of the same religious views or non-religious views that you were raised with now? Why or why not?
3. Have you ever had an experience where something you believed in for a long time wasn’t true? Reflect on that.
4. In what ways do you seek belonging?

Transcript

Beth Demme (00:03):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars podcast.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:05):
Where we share personal experiences so we can learn from each other.
 
Beth Demme (00:08):
Our mission is to talk about things you might relate to, but that you don't hear being discussed in other places.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:13):
Our hope is that you're encouraged to have honest conversations with people in your own life. I'm Steph.
 
Beth Demme (00:17):
And I'm Beth. On today's show, we're going to have an honest conversation with Katie Langston, and our episode is titled, "Signed, Sealed and Formerly Mormon."
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:26):
Then we'll share a slice of life and the show will close with Questions for Reflection, where we invite you to reflect on the conversation in your own life.
 
Beth Demme (00:33):
So good morning, Katie. Welcome to the Discovering our Scars podcast.
 
Katie Langston (00:37):
Good morning. Thank you for having me.
 
Beth Demme (00:39):
So Steph and I are in our normal, regular podcast studio here in Tallahassee, Florida. Tell us where you are located.
 
Katie Langston (00:46):
Yeah, so I'm in my new closet office in our new house in Hurricane, Utah. Now, it's-
 
Beth Demme (00:55):
Hurricane.
 
Katie Langston (00:56):
Hurricane. It's spelled like hurricane, but because it's southern Utah, you have to pronounce it Hurricane.
 
Beth Demme (01:03):
Hurricane. All right, Hurricane, Utah. I can't say that I've heard of Hurricane Utah, but I'm also terrible at geography, so that means nothing.
 
Katie Langston (01:11):
It's near the national parks, like Zion National Park, Bryce Canyon. That's the area. Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (01:17):
Okay, okay. Beautiful. Beautiful part of the country.
 
Katie Langston (01:20):
Yeah, totally.
 
Beth Demme (01:21):
Yeah, yeah.
 
Katie Langston (01:21):
Totally.
 
Beth Demme (01:22):
Well, we invited you on the podcast today because we both read your memoir, Sealed: An Unexpected Journey into the Heart of Grace, and loved it, first of all, let me just say.
 
Katie Langston (01:32):
Oh, thank you.
 
Beth Demme (01:32):
We want everybody to read this book.
 
Katie Langston (01:33):
Thank you.
 
Beth Demme (01:33):
But also, we just had a lot of questions.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:36):
Yes, yeah.
 
Katie Langston (01:37):
Fire away.
 
Beth Demme (01:38):
So we wanted to dive into this with you. So give us an overview. Because in the book, you talk about how you grew up Mormon, but you're not Mormon now, you're actually Lutheran. Can you give us like an elevator pitch version of how that happened?
 
Katie Langston (01:59):
Sure. So, yeah. So I grew up devout Mormon in a, even for Mormon, pretty conservative family in context, in Utah, and had a ton of anxiety as part of my religious experience. I talk about this in the book, but even clinically, scrupulosity, which is a religious manifestation, if you will, of obsessive compulsive disorder. Felt super-duper anxious and pretty miserable, and had an encounter with God's grace that just changed the trajectory of my life. And eventually, through living in and wrestling with that experience or that encounter with the grace of God, found myself questioning Mormonism, exploring other Christian traditions, because the experience that I had was with Jesus, and eventually discovered the Lutheran tradition. So that's the broad sketch.
 
Beth Demme (03:15):
That was great.
 
Katie Langston (03:17):
... about how it happened. Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (03:18):
So we know that you've done a lot of interviews at this point. Everyone has questions after they read your book, which is so great. Is there a question that you're tired of being asked about Mormonism? And also, I say this with the disclaimer that we're probably going to ask it, but I just want to know upfront-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:36):
What question should we start with?
 
Beth Demme (03:37):
Yeah. What's the question you're most tired of answering?
 
Katie Langston (03:43):
And let's do them.
 
Beth Demme (03:43):
Specifically about Mormonism. Let's start there.
 
Katie Langston (03:47):
So a couple of thoughts. First of all, as a lot of the podcasts and interviews I've been doing have been... I've done a bunch with Mormons and ex-Mormons, so a lot of them take the culture for granted, and then of the folks that I've done that are Christian or secular, or I even did one with an atheist the other day, which was funny/an adventure. Was like a combative interview. But anyway...
 
Beth Demme (04:14):
Uh-oh.
 
Katie Langston (04:16):
It was fine. But anyway, so I haven't been asked a ton. I think one question I do get asked a lot, which I'm not sick of it per se, but one question that people do ask me a lot is, did Mormonism cause my OCD?
 
Beth Demme (04:31):
Yes, I have that question, too.
 
Katie Langston (04:32):
Did Mormonism cause my anxiety?
 
Beth Demme (04:33):
Yes.
 
Katie Langston (04:35):
And the answer that I usually have for that... I guess, that's the question. Do you want me to give you the answer?
 
Beth Demme (04:42):
Yeah. Well, because I did wonder about that, specifically, because I wondered if being taught a punitive view of God, which is how I would characterize what you describe in the book, I wondered if that led to the scrupulosity, or if you felt, "No, this is just how I'm wired," and that's just how it manifested.
 
Katie Langston (05:01):
I think it's a bit of both. So I think on the one hand, I'm pre-disposed based on, I think, looking at my family history and the way that, especially on my mother's side, there's been, I think, mental illness, depression, anxiety, things like that, for generations. I think that there's an element of that I was wired that way. But then I think the way that Mormonism talks about worthiness and the way that they require this "purity" in order to be, even have the presence of God, right? The spirit, the holy spirit will leave you if you're unworthy was one of the teachings.
 
Katie Langston (05:50):
That did not help someone who was predisposed to feel anxious and had a deep yearning to be acceptable to God and to my culture and that sort of thing. So I think of it as a perfect storm. And then some of the experiences that I recount early, about shame about my body and things like that, really triggered, I think, this pattern of thinking and worrying. I don't say Mormonism caused it, but I do say that it certainly exacerbated something that was already there. And I don't know if I hadn't been raised Mormon if it ever would have been triggered.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:33):
Well, I'm glad we got that question out of the way, because you literally had that written down.
 
Beth Demme (06:37):
I literally had it on the list.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:38):
So I'm glad she said that. That's what everyone ask her, because we, in fact, asked her that.
 
Katie Langston (06:41):
Yeah, no, it's a good question. It's an important question. So I appreciate it.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:44):
Well, I have some questions that I've had, even before I read your book. There are certain things that non-Mormons, people like us.
 
Beth Demme (06:55):
We're not Mormons.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:55):
We're not Mormons.
 
Beth Demme (06:56):
And we don't have a lot of Mormons in our area.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:58):
Okay, I have a really good friend that's Mormon. That's the thing, I have-
 
Beth Demme (07:03):
We have a few.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:05):
Yeah, but we've never talked about her Mormonism, because it's always felt very secretive, like you can't talk about it. And it's always been very surface level that we've talked about it. So I've always wanted to ask her more questions, but I also didn't want to be offensive. And so, I know she's Mormon, she knows I'm not, but we don't really dig into it too much.
 
Beth Demme (07:25):
Yeah. And I know where you're going with your question, but I just do want to say, I keep saying we don't have a lot of Mormons here, but in fact we are getting a Temple.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:30):
Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.
 
Katie Langston (07:32):
Oh, really?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:32):
They are building-
 
Beth Demme (07:33):
So what do I know?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:34):
... a gigantic temple right now. It's right... Thank you. Yeah. I like your face on that one. It's right next to-
 
Katie Langston (07:42):
The Ward House.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:43):
Okay, well, that building has been here for years and they're building a temple right next to it on a major road. And it's-
 
Katie Langston (07:49):
Yeah, they love to do that.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:49):
... just going to be gigantic.
 
Katie Langston (07:52):
It's their favorite.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (07:52):
And it just keeps looking bigger and bigger. There's a picture and I'm just like, oh my gosh. So we're not looking forward to it. I know there's many Mormons here, obviously, that are looking forward-
 
Beth Demme (08:02):
I mean, there enough, because we have two meeting houses and now we're going to have this temple.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:07):
Yeah, so we have enough to have that. I do like that you really digged into what the temple was, because I have always been curious about that. And so I thought that was interesting when you explained the... I guess before you go into the temple, there's all these processes you do. And you talked about that they almost put on this show, journey-
 
Beth Demme (08:24):
Literally, literally there's a show, right?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:26):
... you have to go through. But you said there's only two temples now that actually do a live show. They only do a recording now?
 
Katie Langston (08:30):
Well, and even that is, now that's even out of date, I'm told. So there-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:36):
Oh. So now it's literally all movies?
 
Beth Demme (08:38):
So I think it's all movie now, yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:39):
Wow. So ours will have a movie, I guess. We'll never see it, but it will have a movie.
 
Katie Langston (08:43):
You won't. You'll never see it. Because they will reveal the secret, the secret words and handshakes.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:49):
They would never, never tell us. So a couple things-
 
Beth Demme (08:51):
We're going to sneak in. We're going to sneak in.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:53):
Oh my gosh.
 
Beth Demme (08:54):
Before they consecrate the temple, I think they let people in, and so I think I'm-
 
Katie Langston (08:57):
Yeah. You can tour it. They won't do the ceremony, but yeah, you can tour it if you want.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:03):
Will they try to recruit us if we tour?
 
Katie Langston (09:05):
Yeah, yeah. They will gently.
 
Beth Demme (09:07):
I mean, they literally come to our doors to try to recruit us.
 
Katie Langston (09:10):
It'll be gentle, right?
 
Beth Demme (09:11):
Okay, great.
 
Katie Langston (09:11):
It's not going to be like, it's not like a timeshare. [crosstalk 00:09:15].
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:15):
Okay, good. So it's in the middle of not as bad as a timeshare, but it'll be gentle. Okay, great.
 
Beth Demme (09:21):
Timeshare comes with a free vacation. I don't know.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:24):
This comes with a free vacation. You get to be-
 
Beth Demme (09:26):
Eternally.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:27):
... sealed for life.
 
Katie Langston (09:28):
Exactly, exactly.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:29):
All right, so there's certain things, though, as a non-Mormon that I have heard through the years that I wanted to ask you about, because I feel like these are things you didn't really touch on. So either they're a thing that we've all made up or they're not a thing that we've all just made up, or they're just really not a big deal within the Mormon culture. So the first thing, I have always been told is Mormons are required to wear special underwear at all times. Is that something we have made up?
 
Katie Langston (09:57):
No, no. That is real. Yeah, so-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:00):
You can talk about that.
 
Beth Demme (10:02):
I thought it was only at the temple. After I read the book, I was like, Oh, I guess the special underwear only happened at the temple.
 
Katie Langston (10:07):
So you get the special underwear at the temple. Okay? There's the scene where, when I go to the temple for the first, do the endowment for the first time, in the book? There's multiple different ceremonies that take place in the temple. One is baptisms for the dead. You can do that when you're 12. The other is what they call initiatory and endowment. And you do that when you're an adult, often before you get married or before you go on a mission. And I did it because I was going on a mission. And then, the last one is the sealing when you get married for time and eternity. So in the initiatory and an endowment ceremonies, you get the garment, they call it. And so I touch very briefly on it. If you blink you would've missed it.
 
Beth Demme (10:55):
It's like bike shorts and a camisole.
 
Katie Langston (10:57):
Yeah, it's like bike shorts and a camisole that you wear. And then, you're supposed to wear that throughout your life.
 
Beth Demme (11:06):
The same one?
 
Katie Langston (11:08):
No, no, no. They have-
 
Beth Demme (11:09):
That's all right. Okay, I'm going to admit this right now, because I had this vision. I think it came from when Mitt Romney ran for president. I think that might've been when I first heard about it, and I had this vision of Mormons being sewn into their underwear. So I really had the wrong idea about it.
 
Katie Langston (11:25):
Yeah. No, so it's not that. It's like this little camisole and it it comes, it's like a cap sleeve so that you couldn't wear a sleeveless shirt such as what I'm wearing right now and tempt the boys or the men.
 
Beth Demme (11:40):
Yeah. I mean, shoulders are so provocative.
 
Katie Langston (11:42):
Because one's shoulders are extremely provocative. And then the-
 
Beth Demme (11:47):
Well, your shoulders are by the way. You have great shoulders.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:50):
Blush.
 
Katie Langston (11:50):
Well, thank you.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:53):
I love the tattoo on your shoulder, too, by the way.
 
Katie Langston (11:55):
Yeah, I have a cool tattoo. Yeah, it's nice.
 
Beth Demme (11:56):
It's awesome.
 
Katie Langston (11:58):
Anyway, and then the shorts come down to just above your knee to preserve modesty is one of the reasons for it. But yeah, you wear that. There's a special distribution center that you can either go to, or if you live near one, you can-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:14):
Get more.
 
Katie Langston (12:15):
... I mean, you can go in or you can order it online now, and they just have... It's just like buying underwear, right?
 
Beth Demme (12:22):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
 
Katie Langston (12:22):
But it's just for space.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:22):
But is it underwear? Or do you wear underwear under it?
 
Katie Langston (12:25):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:25):
It is your underwear.
 
Katie Langston (12:25):
No, it's underwear.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:26):
It is your underwear.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:26):
Oh, it is your underwear. The women wear bike short underwear?
 
Katie Langston (12:31):
Yes.
 
Beth Demme (12:32):
Okay. And they don't wear a bra under their little camisole piece?
 
Katie Langston (12:36):
So you most-
 
Beth Demme (12:38):
That would just be uncomfortable.
 
Katie Langston (12:39):
... You typically wear the bra over it. Now some people wear it-
 
Beth Demme (12:44):
Oh, come on. Wait, wait, come on. We're going to pause there. That's weird.
 
Katie Langston (12:48):
I know.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:49):
That's what you think is weird about Mormons?
 
Beth Demme (12:51):
Yes. Well, no, there's another thing that we'll get to.
 
Katie Langston (12:56):
I don't like, I hate the garment, right? When I stopped wearing it, I was like, "Oh thank God that I don't have to wear this anymore." Having said that if you wear your bra over your little camisole piece, underwire does not dig.
 
Beth Demme (13:11):
Okay, okay.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:13):
Hey, Mormon tip. Hey.
 
Katie Langston (13:15):
So that is one thing that's not the worst about it, but-
 
Beth Demme (13:21):
I just think it would be so hot.
 
Katie Langston (13:22):
... everything else is the worst about it, though.
 
Beth Demme (13:23):
Yeah. No, you-
 
Katie Langston (13:24):
Because you look-
 
Katie Langston (13:24):
So you did wear it?
 
Katie Langston (13:26):
Oh yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:26):
So you'd wear it every day?
 
Katie Langston (13:28):
Every day.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:28):
What do you do-
 
Katie Langston (13:30):
It's just your underwear.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:31):
... And you're allowed to take it off to change to another one?
 
Beth Demme (13:34):
Apparently, they're not sewn into it, like what I thought.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:34):
Yes. Okay.
 
Katie Langston (13:35):
You are not sewn into it-
 
Beth Demme (13:37):
I don't know where I got that crazy idea!
 
Katie Langston (13:39):
... You can take it off for what they say the three S's.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:41):
Okay.
 
Katie Langston (13:41):
Showers, sports, sex.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:44):
Oh, okay.
 
Katie Langston (13:45):
You don't have to have sex in your garments. I have heard of people who do.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:49):
Oh no.
 
Katie Langston (13:50):
I think they might be urban legends. Don't think people real... You don't go around asking people, "Do you take the garment off when you do it?" Don't ask that at the ward.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:03):
Are you sure? Because you said there was a time when the women, married women and the single women would separate. Is that not what you guys talked about in the married women group?
 
Katie Langston (14:12):
We did not talk about if people-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:15):
Took off their garments? Oh, okay.
 
Katie Langston (14:16):
... keep the garment on during sex. I don't know anyone who, of my friends. I have the kind of relationship that you can say those, talk about those kind of things, but no one kept their underwear on during sex.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:31):
So you don't have to shower in it, because I have heard that before.
 
Katie Langston (14:34):
No, no, no. You can shower, you can exercise, go to the gym. You don't have to wear it at the gym.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:42):
Okay. And what is the reason for it?
 
Katie Langston (14:44):
So I'll give the most generous answer, and then maybe I can give the more cynical, ex-Mormon answer. The most generous answer is that it's a reminder of who you are and the covenants that you've made in the temple, and that you are claimed by the Mormon God. Right?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:07):
Okay.
 
Katie Langston (15:11):
But the less generous answer is that it's just a way they can control you.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:15):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (15:16):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:16):
My next thing that I've been told about Mormons is that they are required to stockpile two-plus years of food at all times. Is that accurate or did I make that up?
 
Katie Langston (15:26):
So you probably did not make that up. That used to be a counsel that they gave, and it was one year, not two years. And back in the '80s and '90s especially, I remember it being a big deal. I don't know about before that. It probably was a big deal then as well, because, of course, the end of the world was coming.
 
Beth Demme (15:43):
Yeah, right. Always.
 
Katie Langston (15:45):
Any day.
 
Beth Demme (15:45):
Always, always. The end of the world is always coming.
 
Katie Langston (15:47):
I know. For 4,000 years, the end of the world's been coming.
 
Beth Demme (15:51):
Especially by people who want to control other people.
 
Katie Langston (15:54):
Yes.
 
Beth Demme (15:54):
They always seem to have this insight about when the end of the world is coming. Yeah.
 
Katie Langston (15:58):
It's very true. So the counsel from the Mormon leaders was a year of food storage. And then recently, in the past, I don't know, few years, I don't remember when it was, they started saying more like three months. And just in case there's a natural disaster or something. So they-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:20):
So they're still doing it?
 
Katie Langston (16:21):
They are, but they've eased up a little bit on the... Unlike some of the things, they're not checking in on you, if you... Are they checking in on you if you drink coffee? Yes. Are they checking in on you if you have your three months supply of emergency supplies? No.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:39):
Okay. Okay.
 
Katie Langston (16:41):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:42):
Well, I hope you don't have emergency coffee in that supply because that would be a no-no.
 
Katie Langston (16:45):
No, that's like a paradox. That's like a Mormon paradox, and then the universe explodes.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (16:51):
I loved when you talked about the first, you described the first time you had coffee and how you're so nervous. You're like, "I don't know what to ask for." And you were like ask. It was like this whole production. I was like, wow, I've never had that experience, because I don't like coffee, and I don't like the smell. And I think I had a taste once and I was like, "This is gross." But I just loved your whole journey. Do you drink coffee still?
 
Katie Langston (17:12):
I do, yes.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:13):
Do you enjoy it?
 
Katie Langston (17:13):
In fact... Yes, I love it.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:14):
Got it.
 
Katie Langston (17:15):
I have my iced coffee-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:16):
Nice.
 
Katie Langston (17:17):
... this morning. So yes, it's my favorite.
 
Beth Demme (17:18):
Can Mormons drink decaf?
 
Katie Langston (17:20):
It's a fuzzy area. My mother-in-law does and says, it's just fine. And I'm like power to you. Power to you.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:31):
But Mormons can drink soft drinks, but not coffee?
 
Katie Langston (17:33):
Yes. Correct.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:34):
Because it's more caffeine in coffee?
 
Katie Langston (17:37):
Because that's the rule.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:39):
Yeah, exactly. Because-
 
Katie Langston (17:40):
Because that's the rule.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:41):
Some random-
 
Katie Langston (17:46):
No, seriously. Everywhere here in Utah, they have these soda stands, and they're these fancy soda shops and you go and they have huge, 40-ounce sodas. And then they put even more syrups in them and cream and shots of energy drinks-
 
Beth Demme (18:06):
Oh, like as if it were coffee.
 
Katie Langston (18:08):
... and that's fine.
 
Beth Demme (18:09):
Wow. Wow.
 
Katie Langston (18:12):
But coffee isn't fine.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:13):
Do they have Starbucks in Utah?
 
Katie Langston (18:16):
There's a few. There's not one in my town, but we have a couple of cute little independent coffee shops that I happily support.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:23):
Wow, no Starbucks.
 
Beth Demme (18:24):
Yeah, it's like a whole different-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:24):
Oh my gosh.
 
Katie Langston (18:24):
In the bigger-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:24):
Oh, no, that's true.
 
Beth Demme (18:29):
Yeah, yeah.
 
Katie Langston (18:30):
I'm in a small-ish town. It's like 20,000 people, so yeah.
 
Beth Demme (18:35):
Yeah. Okay, okay.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:36):
And the other thing that I have always been told, which is very interesting, based on your story is, when you leave the Mormon church, when somebody leaves the Mormon church, they are shunned by other Mormons and their family members. Is this true?
 
Katie Langston (18:50):
No, I don't think that's true. I think in some family systems that happens in an informal way, where it's, "Oh, you've rejected the church and now we reject you." And I wouldn't pretend to say that it doesn't strain family relationships in a lot of cases, but it's not like, say, the Jehovah's Witnesses where there's an enforced shunning practice.
 
Beth Demme (19:20):
Or the Scientologists. They have-
 
Katie Langston (19:22):
Or the Scientologists. Yeah. So it's not... Mormonism is quirky and controlling, and I think it belongs in the same conversation as those other groups. But of all those groups, it's become more mainstream and less overbearing than some of those groups, so it's not quite the same. So no, there's no shunning practice.
 
Beth Demme (19:50):
No official shunning.
 
Katie Langston (19:50):
I haven't been by anyone.
 
Beth Demme (19:51):
Okay, okay.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:52):
Good.
 
Beth Demme (19:52):
Okay.
 
Katie Langston (19:52):
Thank God. That would be so horrible. Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (19:55):
Yeah.
 
Katie Langston (19:56):
Yes.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:56):
Yeah. Well, that leads me into direct question for you, is Mormonism a true religion, a cult or something else?
 
Katie Langston (20:06):
That is a big question. So I have a complicated answer to that question.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:13):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). You've never been asked that, I know.
 
Katie Langston (20:17):
So I think that Mormonism started as a sex cult. I'm just ...Quite bluntly. I am obsessed right now with all of the content and media that's come out about NXIVM.
 
Beth Demme (20:33):
Yes.
 
Katie Langston (20:34):
You've heard of that group?
 
Beth Demme (20:34):
Yes.
 
Katie Langston (20:36):
With this Keith Raniere guy. I watched this, I binged this stuff because it's like getting a peek into early Mormonism, especially toward the end of Joseph Smith's life, before he was assassinated. So I think it has its roots as that. And then, especially when... Because Joseph Smith, he started to pressuring women into sex and it had all these different marriages, and then they were building up dynasties with these women, that they would barter like property. And so that wasn't great.
 
Katie Langston (21:18):
And then when Brigham Young, after Joseph Smith died and Brigham Young moved all the Mormons to Utah, from Illinois, then he was a tyrant and a crazy person. That would've been a scary time to live. There were unexplained murders. Then if you left, bad things could happen to you. So I think it has its roots in, and with the polygamy and all that from the early Mormon experience, I think definitely, looking back, it's correct to call it a cult.
 
Katie Langston (21:59):
But now, it's become more mainstream. Polygamy is gone. There still are some elements that are high demand, high pressure. That's why I say I think it belongs in the conversation with Jehovah's Witnesses or Scientologists or whatever, but it's better than those. You can go to college. Jehovah's Witnesses are discouraged from college. You can have a job in the world. Right?
 
Beth Demme (22:32):
Right. Well, after you finish your mission.
 
Katie Langston (22:33):
After you finish your mission.
 
Beth Demme (22:34):
Or get married.
 
Katie Langston (22:35):
And missions are by far the cultiest part about Mormonism, still, that remain. I think of it now as a religion that has a cult-y history and therefore retains some cult-y elements. But I think it has evolved into something less cult-y than it was.
 
Beth Demme (22:58):
I think one of the things about it that feels cult-y to me is, by the way we might've just made up that word. I don't know if that's a word cult-y.
 
Katie Langston (23:05):
I like it.
 
Beth Demme (23:06):
Is all the secrecy.
 
Katie Langston (23:07):
Yeah, totally.
 
Beth Demme (23:09):
All the secrecy around the temple, and all the secrecy around ritual. I think that just lends this air of...
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:16):
Well, there's also, and I got it through reading your book, there's also this sense that Mormons are the true people and are the only ones that are, you're going to heaven or you never die, or you're always with your family. What is the... No, when you die, your guys are going to be together.
 
Katie Langston (23:37):
Yes.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:37):
Your family unit.
 
Katie Langston (23:37):
Your family together as a family. Yes. If, if, you do all the Mormon things, if you don't-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:43):
Yeah, if you do all the things. Check the list.
 
Katie Langston (23:45):
... if you don't fall away. Right.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:45):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (23:46):
Or, if you fall away, but then somebody after you've died gets baptized in your name. Is that a cure-all? The baptisms for the dead?
 
Katie Langston (24:00):
I am just SOL, because I had the truth and I left it.
 
Beth Demme (24:09):
Okay, and you left it. Okay.
 
Katie Langston (24:10):
And so I'm just in a bad way, but for you guys who didn't have it, if you get baptized in the next life then... If you get baptized by someone after you die, and then in the spirit world, you go, "Yeah, I choose to accept that baptism that was just done on my behalf," then you'll be fine.
 
Beth Demme (24:35):
Wow. Huh.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:35):
I need to write that down. That was a whole, long path I need to make sure I follow.
 
Beth Demme (24:39):
I think I need for you to highlight for us the differences between Mormonism and Christianity. Because that is a very strange take on baptism.
 
Katie Langston (24:49):
It is.
 
Beth Demme (24:50):
And also, I've been in a lot of churches where the Mormon Tabernacle Choir is uplifted as like the best Christian music ever.
 
Katie Langston (24:59):
Oh.
 
Beth Demme (24:59):
And now I'm like, is it even Christian? So maybe highlight those differences for us.
 
Katie Langston (25:06):
The primary difference and the reason why it's not correct to classify it within the bounds of the global body of Christ through time and space, and it's not Orthodox, is the ways in which they think about the nature of God. So they're not only non-Trinitarian, which they are, they're non-Trinitarian. The ontology of God, the nature of God that they profess is as a resurrected, redeemed post-human, essentially. And that's the Heavenly Father is one of many Heavenly Fathers. And he has a wife, maybe more than one, with whom he creates worlds, and Jesus and the holy spirit just help him out. I mean, they're all divine, but they're all completely separate in bodily form. They have physical bodies that have been resurrected is the idea. It's not-
 
Beth Demme (26:11):
And where are they?
 
Katie Langston (26:12):
So then they live on a planet near the distance star, Kolob.
 
Beth Demme (26:18):
That doesn't sound made up at all.
 
Katie Langston (26:21):
So yeah. Their theology of God is nothing like the Trinity, right? And then a lot of other teachings about Jesus and the holy spirit, and the purpose of this life and all of those things, then deviate quite a bit from Orthodox Christianity as a result. I think of this fundamental myths, like false teaching, about the nature of God. So, no, you can't...
 
Katie Langston (27:02):
That's why I was baptized Christian. That's why I received Christian baptism as part of my journey was, because it's even though Mormons do baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, those concepts are so radically different from what we mean by that and Orthodox Christianity, that they can't be said to be accomplishing or attempting to accomplish the same things.
 
Katie Langston (27:27):
And so theologically speaking, Mormonism... One Catholic scholar talked about, Luis Ladaria, I think his name is, when I was researching this. He says it's not even fair to call Mormonism a heresy, because it's so radically different that it's just operating on an entirely different doctrinal matrix. And so I think it's more accurate to call it a fourth Abrahamic faith.
 
Beth Demme (27:54):
Except, except, even in Abrahamic faith, God would never be post-human. God is the creator-
 
Katie Langston (27:59):
Yeah. Well, that's true.
 
Beth Demme (27:59):
... God is pre-human.
 
Katie Langston (28:00):
That's true.
 
Beth Demme (28:00):
God was before there was anything. How does Jesus fit into all of that then?
 
Katie Langston (28:07):
So Jesus is like the, he was the.... So God and Heavenly Mother, Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother procreated these spirits in the preexistence, and so Jesus and all of us were spirits before we came to earth. So we had a preexistence as well, because God and Heavenly Mother made us.
 
Beth Demme (28:30):
Okay, wait.
 
Katie Langston (28:30):
First as spirit beings.
 
Beth Demme (28:32):
I know you're on your way to Jesus, so how do Adam and Eve work into that?
 
Katie Langston (28:36):
So they were also spirits that were made.
 
Beth Demme (28:38):
They're spirits.
 
Katie Langston (28:38):
So everyone got made in the pre-... It's called the preexistence because it existed before this mortal life.
 
Beth Demme (28:46):
Okay, so before Genesis 1.
 
Katie Langston (28:48):
Before Genesis 1.
 
Beth Demme (28:50):
Okay.
 
Katie Langston (28:50):
Yes, exactly. Yes. So everyone's up in heaven, and you're a spirit, which is, you have a body, but it's ethereal, your body's ethereal.
 
Beth Demme (29:02):
Okay, so it's like a soul, but not. It's my-
 
Katie Langston (29:04):
Yeah, it's like a soul, but without the, it's like the unembodied soul, it's the pre-embodied soul, spirit. Right? Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (29:12):
All right.
 
Katie Langston (29:12):
And then, so Jesus was the first one of those that God, that Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother made, and he was the best one.
 
Beth Demme (29:21):
He's the best. I agree, Jesus is the best, for what it's worth.
 
Katie Langston (29:25):
He is the best.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:26):
We can get behind that.
 
Katie Langston (29:26):
And he was the kindest and the smartest and the bestest of all of the children, the spirit children. And so he got-
 
Beth Demme (29:35):
God plays favorites. I'm hearing you, got it.
 
Katie Langston (29:40):
So he got picked to be the savior so that he would come to earth and suffer an atonement so that we could all be forgiven of our sins.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:54):
So there's some similarities there.
 
Katie Langston (29:57):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (29:58):
I'm not hearing the similarities.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:01):
Jesus died for our sins.
 
Beth Demme (30:02):
Atonement is a similarity, I guess. But who's Heavenly Mother?
 
Katie Langston (30:07):
We don't talk about her.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:08):
Oh, Beth. We don't talk about her. Okay, gosh, Beth.
 
Katie Langston (30:13):
We know she must exist, because how else would we get here?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:17):
Not storks at all.
 
Beth Demme (30:19):
Okay. I mean-
 
Katie Langston (30:21):
It's not storks. It's the blissful procreation into the eternities.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:27):
Because it has to be something we can conceptualize. And that's the only way that people could come to be.
 
Beth Demme (30:32):
Who created Heavenly Mother and Heavenly Father?
 
Katie Langston (30:36):
The Heavenly Mother and Father before them.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:38):
Of course, Beth.
 
Katie Langston (30:41):
And then, their Heavenly Father and Mother before them, and on and on.
 
Beth Demme (30:43):
Obviously.
 
Katie Langston (30:44):
And there's no beginning and there's no end.
 
Beth Demme (30:46):
Yeah. It's like a journey.
 
Katie Langston (30:48):
Obviously, Beth-
 
Beth Demme (30:49):
Obviously. I mean, I don't know why I'm struggling with this.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:51):
I don't know why you're struggling with this.
 
Katie Langston (30:55):
It's not Christianity, right?
 
Beth Demme (30:58):
Right.
 
Katie Langston (30:58):
It's an entirely different cosmology.
 
Beth Demme (31:01):
Yes.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:01):
I mean, something you talked about in the book was, you really struggled with having to say that you believed in something that there was no way that you could know the answer to. I don't remember even what they were, but it was you had to believe that the book of Mormon was the true facts or whatever.
 
Beth Demme (31:20):
And the apostles are-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:22):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (31:23):
... Meaning the church officials.
 
Katie Langston (31:24):
The Mormon apostles. Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:27):
I'm joking that, of course, why don't you get it, Beth, because it sounds ridiculous. But when that's the Mormon, the whole concept is you just agree this is fact. So if someone tells you this is fact, and they just say gibberish, "Oh, okay."
 
Katie Langston (31:44):
You're like, "Right."
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:45):
Is this fact? You have to tell me this is fact in order to get into the temple. Okay, yep, I believe it. But you really struggle with that because you have a full brain that's like, "Wait, I can't process this. What do you mean? How could I know this as a fact?" That's my faith is I believe I am a... I call myself a Christ follower because Christianity has become such whatever. But I could be wrong, but this feels right to me. But I can doubt it and that's okay, and God's okay. God is big enough to be okay with my doubt.
 
Beth Demme (32:22):
Yes, literally.
 
Katie Langston (32:22):
Exactly.
 
Beth Demme (32:23):
I worship a God who tells us a story about someone wrestling with God and saying, "I'm not going to let go of you God, until you give me a blessing."
 
Beth Demme (32:32):
I am struggling, I think, to conceptualize what you're saying about Mormonism, because I've never understood until I read your book, how it is not Christian. And I think I'm confused about it because they do Bible studies and things. They use the same Bible that I use. So I always thought that it was Christian, maybe worst case, Christian-adjacent. And now I feel like it's really not, because the concept of Jesus being one of the three persons of the Trinity, but the Trinity are the three-in-one. None of that is present in Mormonism.
 
Katie Langston (33:10):
Correct.
 
Beth Demme (33:11):
And in our, I always talk about this, I'm United Methodist, our policy is, our official policy is we can't re-baptize anybody, unless they're Mormon. We have a specific exception in our Book of Discipline that says, well, actually they never have been baptized, which you were talking about a minute ago. And I didn't really understand that until I read your book and you explained it.
 
Beth Demme (33:31):
And one of the most beautiful descriptions, and I actually want to just read this, because this was so, I thought this was really powerful. You write, "In my first baptism, I had died to grace and risen to worthiness requirements. Now I was being called to reverse it." That in your Christian baptism, you were born into grace, reborn into grace, and you could let those worthiness requirements just fall away, because God created you and God loves you and isn't going to set you up to fail. That was-
 
Katie Langston (34:07):
Yeah. Praise God.
 
Beth Demme (34:08):
I thought that was really powerful.
 
Katie Langston (34:11):
Thank you.
 
Beth Demme (34:11):
And it helped me understand why I should go around trying to re-baptize all the Mormons.
 
Katie Langston (34:16):
Yeah, go baptize all the Mormons.
 
Beth Demme (34:18):
I'm going to-
 
Katie Langston (34:18):
Do it.
 
Beth Demme (34:19):
I'm going to get a big sign, as they're putting up their temple.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:22):
Oh my gosh, please. I will totally do that with you.
 
Beth Demme (34:24):
Want to be baptized for real?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:26):
That would be... Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.
 
Beth Demme (34:29):
Just kidding. I would never be brave enough or whatever, callous enough, whatever it is, to do that.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:33):
Yeah, no. That would be-
 
Beth Demme (34:35):
And also, I mean, the Mormons that I do know, they're really nice people.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:38):
Yeah, they're good people.
 
Katie Langston (34:39):
Oh totally. Mormons are so nice.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:41):
Yeah.
 
Katie Langston (34:41):
They are so nice.
 
Beth Demme (34:42):
They're so nice.
 
Katie Langston (34:44):
They are. They're super nice.
 
Beth Demme (34:46):
So nice.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:48):
Okay, I really like to ski. And so I have looked at different places to go skiing, and one of the best places I've found is Salt Lake City. A couple years ago, I was ready to buy a ticket, and then I was really worried. I was, I feel like everyone is Mormon in Utah. And I don't know, might freak me out. So I Googled it and it was quick, but I was like, everyone in Salt Lake City is Mormon and I just wasn't sure I could handle that. Is that accurate? Is everyone in Utah Mormon?
 
Katie Langston (35:16):
No, no.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:16):
You are not.
 
Katie Langston (35:18):
No. Yeah, no. It's like-
 
Beth Demme (35:19):
Everybody but her. Everybody but her.
 
Katie Langston (35:20):
Everyone but me. Every single person, except for myself. No. No, it's 50%, I think, of the state. So I mean that's a lot.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:31):
Yeah.
 
Katie Langston (35:32):
Right? And it feels like everyone is. But no. And in the cities, it's less, like Salt Lake City, in particular, I think there's a lower proportion of Mormons.
 
Beth Demme (35:43):
What do you think draws them to Mormonism?
 
Katie Langston (35:48):
I mean, that's a question that I wrestle with so much in the book, actually, about my grandmother and other people who had converted, have converted, and I don't fully understand it. And I never understood it. Even growing up, I was like, "Oh it's a good thing I was born in this, because I don't think I would've believed this from outside." Which maybe should've been a clue. But anyway, it takes time.
 
Katie Langston (36:12):
And even when I was on my mission, because I did a proselytizing mission in Bulgaria. Whenever someone had maybe two or three people that I was teaching decide to get baptized Mormon, I remember being like, "But do you believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet?" And they were like, "Yeah." And I was like, "Really?"
 
Beth Demme (36:33):
How does that feel for you now? Because I didn't even think about that until you just said it, that you actually did on your mission convert people to Mormonism. How does that feel to you now?
 
Katie Langston (36:44):
I have heard through the grapevine that I think, probably none of, maybe one, but probably no one that I taught is still Mormon, and I'm relieved for that. Yeah. I don't regret going per se, because you can't change who you were and it is part of who I am now and whatever. But I do hope that... Fortunately, it was Bulgaria and no one cared, not a single person really, for the most part, wanted to hear from us or talk to us. And so it was very unsuccessful as a missionary overall.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:31):
One of the things that you kept going back to in the book, which was good, because I think that was the foundation of how your whole family became Mormon was your grandmother. And it was a missionary came to her door and she had been really struggling. It was a child?
 
Beth Demme (37:49):
I thought this was really powerful that she had lost a child who had not yet been baptized. And how do I say this-
 
Katie Langston (37:55):
Methodist.
 
Beth Demme (37:56):
Yeah. The stupid Methodist pastor shared non-Methodist theology with her and said, "Oh yeah, your baby wasn't baptized. I guess your baby's not eternally with God." Which is not our theology at all. Hello, we're the people of prevenient grace. It's our whole gig, y'all. That God's grace goes before you at all times. We even let kids take Communion for that reason. Like, hello. But-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:20):
But the Mormon...
 
Beth Demme (38:21):
But the Mormon gave her a message of hope. And that made sense to me. That made sense to me that she would be drawn to that.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:29):
And it makes sense to me that people, humans, we are drawn to connection and to feeling belonging, and she needed that comfort that she wasn't getting in her home church. And that was really what changed the direction of your family. And then, was it your mom? She was.... Oh, she had a tough family life and she had a Mormon that would take her, drive her to church every day.
 
Katie Langston (38:55):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
 
Beth Demme (38:56):
So that grandma, that grandmother we're talking about, that is your dad's mom?
 
Katie Langston (38:59):
Oh yeah, that's my dad's mom.
 
Beth Demme (39:00):
All right, so that's how your dad's side of the family came into the Mormon church? And then, your mom converted on her own?
 
Katie Langston (39:07):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (39:08):
Yeah.
 
Katie Langston (39:08):
Yes. She was the only one in her family.
 
Beth Demme (39:09):
Because she was both.
 
Katie Langston (39:11):
Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:11):
But she was looking for belonging and stability and the Mormons provided that. And they would drive her and they would pick her up and they would take care of her. And those are really clear pictures to me on how could someone fall into this complication, religion, whatever, thing. And that to me was very good examples of how that could happen. And then, you became Mormon because then that was your family's path. You were born into it.
 
Katie Langston (39:42):
Exactly.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:43):
It's just so surprising. And actually, I know somebody that their story started with their grandmother got the knock on the door and that's how they became Mormon. And I'm like, I didn't realize that really happened. I thought that was... But that is really how a lot of people become Mormon it seems.
 
Katie Langston (40:01):
Yep. Or, you know someone who is, right?
 
Beth Demme (40:04):
Yeah.
 
Katie Langston (40:04):
You have a friend who is, and then you start talking and they don't tell you about the stuff about the temple and the worthiness interviews and the... You know what I mean? They don't tell you about these-
 
Beth Demme (40:14):
And the planet Kolob? Is that what you... Planet Kolob?
 
Katie Langston (40:16):
They do not tell you about the planet Kolob when you're first investigating, and then by the time you hear about those things, you're already in.
 
Beth Demme (40:26):
Uh-huh (affirmative), you're already in.
 
Katie Langston (40:26):
And so it's-
 
Beth Demme (40:28):
It's already a big part of your life.
 
Katie Langston (40:29):
Yeah, yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:30):
So when you were in, I think your 20s, you were sealed to your husband. You actually went through the full ceremony. You were a practicing Mormon at the time.
 
Katie Langston (40:41):
Yep.
 
Beth Demme (40:42):
And you brought him back into the...
 
Katie Langston (40:44):
I know. Yes.
 
Beth Demme (40:45):
Back into the fold or however you might say it. So he grew up Mormon. He's in a legacy-type family? I don't know exactly how to say it.
 
Katie Langston (40:53):
Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah.
 
Beth Demme (40:55):
They've been Mormon for generations?
 
Katie Langston (40:57):
Yes.
 
Beth Demme (40:57):
And you guys got married.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:01):
Sealed.
 
Beth Demme (41:01):
I mean, you got sealed for time and all eternity?
 
Katie Langston (41:04):
Yep.
 
Beth Demme (41:05):
In your special underwear.
 
Katie Langston (41:07):
We were. We were in our special underwear.
 
Beth Demme (41:09):
I would expect nothing less.
 
Katie Langston (41:11):
Then we took them right off.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (41:12):
Oh.
 
Beth Demme (41:13):
Good for you, good for you. So now you're not Mormon.
 
Katie Langston (41:18):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
 
Beth Demme (41:19):
And your husband is what?
 
Katie Langston (41:23):
So, I mean, he's always been a more loosey-goosey Mormon, or loosey-goosey religious person than I have ever been.
 
Beth Demme (41:30):
Is that a different sect of Mormonism? Because we were wondering, are there different? So there's a loosey goosey?
 
Katie Langston (41:34):
Yeah, the loosey-goosey Mormons. Yeah, they call them... Yeah, exactly. They call them Jack Mormons, actually. There's even a term for it. Although, he's less, I don't know, sometimes that means that you never ever participate, but you still believe it. I don't know, maybe that's how he is. So he's always just been a lot more casual than I am about his piety. And so, he's still Mormon. He hasn't gone to church in a really long time because of the pandemic. And he's very angry about how people in Mormonism won't get vaccinated or wear masks. Makes him so mad, so he hasn't gotten gone.
 
Beth Demme (42:21):
Yeah. We're with him on that. Yeah.
 
Katie Langston (42:23):
That was the hardest part of this whole journey was knowing that he felt I was rejecting him and he felt I thought he was stupid. You're still believing, even though I was no longer believing. And so that was, for sure, the most delicate and tricky part of this whole journey.
 
Beth Demme (42:47):
Yeah. So now you're in an interfaith marriage.
 
Katie Langston (42:49):
Yeah, we are.
 
Beth Demme (42:50):
Yeah. Because they really are different as we've talked about.
 
Katie Langston (42:54):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (42:55):
And you have two daughters?
 
Katie Langston (42:58):
Two girls. Yep.
 
Beth Demme (43:00):
Will they go to the temple and participate in the baptism for the dead and those sorts of things?
 
Katie Langston (43:07):
No. Uh-uh (negative). So a couple of things that have enabled... I thank God, because A, I really like my husband and I love him. I like him, right?
 
Beth Demme (43:22):
Yes, yes.
 
Katie Langston (43:22):
That's very helpful in a marriage to like your spouse. Sometimes you need friendship and you need that support.
 
Beth Demme (43:30):
Yeah, somebody you want to hang out with.
 
Katie Langston (43:31):
Exactly-
 
Beth Demme (43:31):
Yes.
 
Katie Langston (43:32):
... exactly. So, thank God, unlike some people that I know, and lots of people that I've heard about whose marriages dissolve when one party leaves the church, the LDS Mormon church, and then the other one stays or whatever. So fortunately, that hasn't been our situation. And part of that is because he's more loosey-goosey and he just can deal with things not being perfect, according to how he's told they're supposed to be.
 
Katie Langston (44:06):
And then, the other part is that through my relentless questioning of the worthiness stuff when I was in the church, and then when I was leaving the church and now that I'm out of the church, the LDS church. I say the church, that's how they call, that's what they... The capital "C" church is how Mormons think of themselves. He agrees with me about the worthiness stuff. He agrees with me about grace. He agrees with me about some of the things that are most important.
 
Katie Langston (44:35):
So we've had conversations with the leaders of the... So the girls will come to both of our churches, in normal times, non-pandemic times. We'll switch off. But we have conversations with the leaders of Lanny's congregations where it's like, "Hey, you cannot do these interviews with our kids. That's not allowed." I have said, "Don't teach my kids about chastity and sex, because the way you do it is crazy. So please don't."
 
Beth Demme (45:09):
Yeah, unhealthy. Yeah.
 
Katie Langston (45:11):
So we set boundaries for them, for their participation in the LDS community, and then just try to negotiate. My older daughter, who's a freshmen in high school this year, she's actually like of the mindset she doesn't believe in God at all right now. That's her perspective. And then the younger one is eight, and so she just goes along with whatever.
 
Beth Demme (45:39):
Yeah. She hasn't reached a developmental age to really process it or begin to process it yet. In the book, the last thing we had heard was your parents moved to North Carolina, I think?
 
Katie Langston (45:50):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).
 
Beth Demme (45:50):
Are they still there or are they back in Utah?
 
Katie Langston (45:53):
No, they're in North Carolina.
 
Beth Demme (45:54):
Okay.
 
Katie Langston (45:55):
Yeah, yeah. And all my siblings also live down there. So my dad recruited everyone, except me, down the Raleigh Raleigh-Durham area. Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (46:02):
Okay. So what brought you back to Utah?
 
Katie Langston (46:06):
That's a good question. So a couple of things, one is... So we now live in the town where Lanny, my husband, is from and his whole family. And so we literally live next door to his brother.
 
Beth Demme (46:19):
Nice.
 
Katie Langston (46:19):
This house came on the market that is next door to his brother. And his mom lives in a little casita in the backyard of my brother-in-law's house. So it's like this, we call it a compound, to be completely, hopefully, a non-creepy compound.
 
Beth Demme (46:37):
Nice. I mean, it's one step away from sister-
 
Katie Langston (46:40):
Where we won't marry-
 
Beth Demme (46:40):
Sister Wives.
 
Katie Langston (46:40):
We're not marrying off young girls, like they do down the road in the compounds of the polygamist sects.
 
Beth Demme (46:47):
Oh no, oh no.
 
Katie Langston (46:48):
But anyway... No, you go to the store and there's polygamists. It's wild.
 
Beth Demme (46:53):
That is wild.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:54):
I thought that was-
 
Katie Langston (46:55):
They have their long hair.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:56):
I thought it was illegal there. I thought.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (46:59):
I thought they moved to Nevada to do that.
 
Beth Demme (47:01):
Was on that show, Sister Wives. That's true.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:03):
Yeah, that's where I got my knowledge.
 
Katie Langston (47:04):
Well, and that is a great show, and I'm sure entirely accurate in every way.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:10):
Seriously.
 
Beth Demme (47:11):
God bless those women.
 
Katie Langston (47:13):
God bless them. There's different sects. There's the ones like those people that wear normal clothes. And then there's...
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:20):
The not normal clothes people can live in Utah.
 
Katie Langston (47:23):
Yeah, they can.
 
Beth Demme (47:23):
Okay. Well, we have folks like that here to be fair. Some of our Pentecostal friends. They don't cut their hair and the women have to wear long skirts all the time. And here in Tallahassee, we don't have it so much. But the town that I'm from is Pensacola, which is closer to Alabama. And they have a big Pentecostal college there called, Pensacola Christian College, and they're not allowed to watch movies and that kind of stuff.
 
Katie Langston (47:46):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But anyway...
 
Beth Demme (47:50):
So you have a compound, but in a really healthy way.
 
Katie Langston (47:51):
So we have a compound, but a non-creepy compound.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (47:53):
So you're close to family, but your husband's side.
 
Katie Langston (47:55):
So close to family, and I felt called as part of my call to ministry, I've always, even through seminary and all this stuff, I've stayed connected to different communities of post-Mormons, in particular, and questioning Mormons, and there's not a lot of ministry resources for folks in that situation. There's some, and I'm grateful for the people who are doing that work. But I felt called to contribute in that area and talk to people about grace. Because my experience of talking to Mormons about grace is that they're starving for it. They're starving for it.
 
Beth Demme (48:42):
As are most folks. Right? I mean-
 
Katie Langston (48:45):
Yeah. Amen. Yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (48:54):
Well, Katie, thank you so much for being here. I feel like I got all my questions answered, yet I still have more questions. So we might need a part two of this. I have one silly question that I decided I would ask you later because it's more silly. So you enjoy acting. That was something you talked about in your book.
 
Katie Langston (49:14):
Sure.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (49:14):
So, I'm curious, do you enjoy musicals?
 
Katie Langston (49:16):
Yes.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (49:17):
Okay. Me, too. Love musicals. I'm curious if there's a certain musical that you've seen and what your thoughts are on it? It's called Book of Mormon.
 
Katie Langston (49:25):
I see where you're going with that. So yeah, I have seen the Book of Mormon musical. In fact, I went with my sister and another dear friend, and all three of us had all been on missions and we're all then out of the church at that point. And so, we went and saw in Minneapolis when it came through on tour. We were looking and we're like, "Are we the only returned missionaries in this theater? Wouldn't that be funny if we were?" So I have really mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, it's super racist, in particular. And it's pretty foul, which is... I'm not one of these people that's, oh, I don't even know... fanning myself.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (50:17):
Prude? Is that-
 
Beth Demme (50:17):
A prude, yeah.
 
Katie Langston (50:17):
Yeah, I'm not fanning myself. So on the one hand, there were just parts of it that I was like, "I don't know, man, this is kind of..." And then, there were other parts that were so, so, so, so, so funny, and we were dying. And there were some Mormon jokes that we got that other people in the audience didn't get. We would be in stitches and the other audience members didn't quite get it, but it was so funny, because they did a really good job on picking up on some of the nuances of the culture.
 
Katie Langston (50:51):
There was a part of me that was so curious about the people in the audience. Because I was like, I know why I'm here and why I'm so fascinated by this, and why I think this is funny and entertaining. But then I wanted to ask this whole audience of people who are dying, they're cracking up in the audience, "What is funny about this for you?" So I was curious about that. But on the whole, I enjoyed it. I thought it was very, very funny and very good. The foul and racist aspects of it, though, was-
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (51:32):
Yeah. There's some stuff that's, yeah, a little too much. I've never been able to see the show, but I've heard the soundtrack many, many times, and I know the story. What do you think of practicing, someone that's still Mormon would think about it?
 
Katie Langston (51:45):
Oh, they would be very offended.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (51:46):
Okay, okay.
 
Katie Langston (51:47):
Yeah, for the most part. For the most part, Mormons are very offended by it. Some of the more liberal Mormons thought it was funny and cool, but I think most Mormons were pretty offended by it. I think it's affectionate. I don't think it's cruel toward Mormons. I think they're just offended because they love that, to be offended. It's their favorite.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (52:14):
Okay. Great.
 
Beth Demme (52:16):
Hey, they have that in common with evangelicals.
 
Katie Langston (52:19):
Yes, exactly. Exactly.
 
Beth Demme (52:22):
Well, one thing that we always like to ask our guests is what book, TV show or podcast are you really into right now?
 
Katie Langston (52:29):
So I have been watching this French TV show called, A French Village, which is on Amazon Prime, and it's about the Nazi occupation of France.
 
Beth Demme (52:43):
Oh, wow.
 
Katie Langston (52:44):
And it's amazing.
 
Beth Demme (52:47):
Is it in English?
 
Katie Langston (52:52):
It is not.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (52:52):
She said it's French.
 
Katie Langston (52:54):
It is subtitled. And it's not dubbed, so you have to read it. I mean, the acting is really beautiful. And the story is just about how did different people in this town respond to this evil that comes in, and who resists actively, who participates, who lets it happen and doesn't doesn't do much? What are the different levels of complicity of the town members and all this kind of stuff? It's pretty heavy, so I can only watch it an episode or two a week, even though it's on Amazon, because otherwise, I get depressed and sad. So then, when it gets too depressing and sad, then I watch my British crime dramas.
 
Beth Demme (53:46):
Oh, okay. Got to keep it everything in balance, everything in balance.
 
Katie Langston (53:51):
Exactly, and those are good. Yeah, so that's what I've been doing lately in terms of TV.
 
Beth Demme (54:03):
Cool.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (54:03):
That's cool.
 
Katie Langston (54:04):
I love TV.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (54:04):
Yeah.
 
Beth Demme (54:05):
Yeah.
 
Katie Langston (54:05):
I love TV.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (54:06):
I think we can all agree on that.
 
Beth Demme (54:07):
Yeah, TV's good stuff. Just throw this out there for you. I just recently read a book called, The Nightingale, by Kristin Hannah. And when I say read it, I mean, I listened to it, and it's about two sisters during that same time period. It's historical fiction, but it was really... I just thought she did a good job on it, so I would recommend that to you.
 
Katie Langston (54:27):
Okay, cool. Yeah, I'll check it out.
 
Beth Demme (54:28):
The Nightingale. Yeah.
 
Katie Langston (54:29):
Okay. Thank you. The Nightingale.
 
Beth Demme (54:31):
So where can people find you? Where can they find the book?
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (54:35):
Online, not in person.
 
Katie Langston (54:38):
Yes, online. Yes. You can find it...
 
Beth Demme (54:39):
You're right. That took me a second. Yes, no, I'm not wanting people to be able to track you down. I mean, where can-
 
Katie Langston (54:46):
Trying to get people to dox me.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (54:47):
Oh gosh, no, no.
 
Beth Demme (54:50):
Not at all.
 
Katie Langston (54:52):
Funny. Yeah, so you can find the book on Amazon or bookshop.org or IndieBound or wherever books are sold, Barnes and Noble online.
 
Beth Demme (55:03):
Audible.
 
Katie Langston (55:04):
It's available... Audible. Yeah, it's available in ebook, paperback, hardback, and audiobook. And it should be just, yeah, you can search it on your favorite book platform and you should be able to find it. You can follow some of my work at katielangston.com, or I'm @katielangston on Twitter. And I complain a lot about Mormons on there, and also do some theological posts and also some about politics, so buyer beware.
 
Beth Demme (55:37):
Fair enough, fair enough. And I actually would like to give a shout out to Luther Seminary. I probably should let you do that since they're your people. But I just want to say that a lot of, even the older resources, like Skinner used to do, like Enter the Bible-
 
Katie Langston (55:50):
[inaudible 00:55:50] it.
 
Beth Demme (55:50):
... and Dr. Skinner did.
 
Katie Langston (55:52):
We're redoing, I'm working on redoing Enter the Bible right now. That's my day job.
 
Beth Demme (55:56):
Okay, well, I loved it. It was probably the very first podcast that I was like, "I must listen to every one of these." Because I was in a place where everyone around me wanted to do a personal application of the Bible, and I'm like, I need to know more of the academics of it. And ultimately, that led me to understanding my call, all that unfolds.
 
Katie Langston (56:17):
Oh cool.
 
Beth Demme (56:17):
But Enter the Bible was a really great resource. So I've loved it since then. And now that I preach weekly, I never miss Sermon Brainwave, right?
 
Katie Langston (56:25):
Awesome.
 
Beth Demme (56:26):
And recently had a question and emailed Dr. Karoline Lewis, and she emailed me back. Like, who does that?
 
Katie Langston (56:32):
She's awesome. Yes. That's great.
 
Beth Demme (56:33):
Yeah, so I totally want to give a shout out to Luther Seminary. So why don't you do that for us.
 
Katie Langston (56:39):
Yeah. Well, I'll plug that, because that's actually my day job. So by day, I am the director of digital strategy at Luther seminary. So I oversee those properties, the Working Preacher. My colleague, Ben, does most of the work, all of the work on Working Preacher. He's amazing. But we're relaunching Enter the Bible. It's up now, but we're redesigning it. And we're going to relaunch Enter the Bible with a new look and feel, and some new functionality, new podcast episodes are coming out. In fact, co-hosted by yours truly and Old Testament professor at Luther, Kathryn Schifferdecker, who's features in the book. She's a very dear friend and mentor of mine. So we're going to start relaunching the podcast by taking difficult questions about the Bible and attempting to answer them at least halfway satisfactory ways.
 
Beth Demme (57:29):
And maybe being okay when there's not an answer.
 
Katie Langston (57:31):
Exactly. And being like, "I don't know why." Yeah, right?
 
Beth Demme (57:34):
Yeah.
 
Katie Langston (57:35):
Yeah. "I have no idea. Got nothing for you." Yeah, so all of those resources are available. We have another one that we're working on called the Seeds Project, which is actually for spiritual seekers, trying to talk about the difference Jesus can make in everyday life in a way that's hopefully, not creepy and weird, but actually really helpful for folks who are looking to make meaning, but may not yet know Jesus. So yeah, we've got lots of cool digital projects and properties that we're working on. Yeah, appreciate the shout out.
 
Beth Demme (58:11):
Yeah. That's really awesome. I'm excited to know that Enter the Bible's coming back. I'm going to look for that.
 
Katie Langston (58:15):
Yeah, yeah.
 
Stephanie Kostopoulos (58:16):
And the end of each episode, we end with questions for reflection. These are questions based on today's show that Beth will read and leave a little pause between for you to answer yourself, or you can find a PDF on our Buy Me a Coffee page.
 
Beth Demme (58:28):
Number one, do you know any Mormons? Have you ever had a conversation with them about their faith beliefs? Number two, are you still part of the same religious views or non-religious views that you were raised with? Why or why not? Number three, have you ever had an experience where something you believed in for a long time wasn't true? Reflect on that. And number four, in what ways do you seek belonging? This has been the Discovering our Scars podcast. Thank you for joining us.